You must PROVE you LOVE the LORD to be saved!

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FreeGrace2

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Actually, I have attempted to reconcile them. Granted, there are verses that say salvation can be lost, while others seem to say it can't.
Could you provide a few verses that "say salvation can be lost", please?

John 10:28 doesn't "seem to say" salvation can't be lost. It makes that point very clearly. Those who receive eternal life, which is when they believe, shall never perish.

How do you personally reconcile the 2 that I showed you with the ones you've been quoting?
BTW, when you say "BAC", it means Born Again Christian. It just so happened to be Jesus Himself who said that we must be born again.
Speaking of being born again, let's consider what Peter said about being born again:

1 Pet 1:23 - For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God.

The red words inform us of the kind of seed that we have been born again of.

The blue words inform us of the kind of seed that we have NOT been born again of.

So Peter was in lock step with Jesus regarding born again Christians will never perish.
 
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FreeGrace2

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In general, the reconciliation is shown below.

With the understanding that I have a page full
of verses which proves each of the following:
-- the necessity of ENDURING in the faith
-- the necessity of OBEDIENCE
-- the necessity of PRACTICING RIGHTEOUSNESS
Sure, all these things are quite necessary for living the Christian life.

But, AGAIN, not any of these 'necessity' verses SAY in plain words, or even suggest, that enduring, obedience and practicing righteousness is necessary for going to heaven, or being saved, or to stay saved, or to have eternal life, or to not lose eternal life, or any other way an Arminian might want to phrase their view.
 
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FreeGrace2

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FreeGrace2 said:
Is this a condition for recipients of eternal life to meet in order to never perish?
Don' follow you here.
My question was directed at your statement which was attacked to my statement:
"John 10:28 tells us that recipients of eternal life, which is the MOMENT of saving faith, per John 3:16, 5:24, 6:47, shall never perish.

It could not be more clear than that.

So, the moment of saving faith, the believer receives eternal life, and from that MOMENT, shall never perish."

And your statement:
"Only as long as they don't turn on Jesus for the world like Demas did."

My question is about whether your view is that IF one does "turn on Jesus for the world like Demas did" would result in loss of salvation.

Hope this clarifies.
 
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Neogaia777

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In general, the reconciliation is shown below.

With the understanding that I have a page full
of verses which proves each of the following:
-- the necessity of ENDURING in the faith
-- the necessity of OBEDIENCE
-- the necessity of PRACTICING RIGHTEOUSNESS
All subjective terms... Depending on ones own point of view, can be taken several ways...

Causing one to ask or bring into question what these things mean, or really mean...?

God Bless!
 
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Aldebaran

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Okay, this passage is referring to rewards.

These BACs have NOT been disqualified as in:
-- falling away from the faith
-- being estranged from Christ
-- falling from grace
-- not allowed to enter the kingdom of God
-- not allowed to enter the New Jerusalem
-- not blotted out of the Book of Life, and etc.
Do you recognize these NT verses of disqualification?

These BACs have NOT been disqualified
and are therefore eligible for gaining rewards.

But only if their works were made of the things the fire didn't consume. If even ALL of their works had been burned up, does that indicate that they lived their lives in obedience in following all of Christ's commands? If they did, their works would not be wood, hay and stubble. But the example is given, and Paul says that even though his works were burned up, he was still saved.
BTW, those points you mention are all conclusions, not actual works.
 
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Aldebaran

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Could you provide a few verses that "say salvation can be lost", please?

John 10:28 doesn't "seem to say" salvation can't be lost. It makes that point very clearly. Those who receive eternal life, which is when they believe, shall never perish.

I don't have them at my fingertips right now, but mainly the ones with qualifiers like "if", and ones that say, "Those who endure to the end".

Speaking of being born again, let's consider what Peter said about being born again:

1 Pet 1:23 - For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God.

The red words inform us of the kind of seed that we have been born again of.

The blue words inform us of the kind of seed that we have NOT been born again of.

So Peter was in lock step with Jesus regarding born again Christians will never perish.

I guess what I'd say to this is that the words you put in red apply to those who were truly born again. Not everyone who thinks they are born again really are. It's said that we are known by our fruits. Some of us are fruitier than others.
 
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BCsenior

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But only if their works were made of the things the fire didn't consume. If even ALL of their works had been burned up, does that indicate that they lived their lives in obedience in following all of Christ's commands?
BTW, those points you mention are all conclusions, not actual works.
1 Cor 3:11-15 ...
"Paul is referring to the Bema judgment and
the judging of believers for their service to God.
This is a purging fire. etc. etc."
(The Complete Biblical Library, Springfield, MS)

All burned up, or none burned up, what's the difference? ... It's all about rewards, not salvation.
 
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Aldebaran

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1 Cor 3:11-15 ...
"Paul is referring to the Bema judgment and
the judging of believers for their service to God.
This is a purging fire. etc. etc."
(The Complete Biblical Library, Springfield, MS)

All burned up, or none burned up, what's the difference? ... It's all about rewards, not salvation.

But if a person was truly saved, they would have proven it by doing all the things you've been talking about, right? Well, the person who's works were burned up obviously didn't do all those things, and therefore didn't prove he loved the Lord. Yet he still had his salvation.
 
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FreeGrace2

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BCsenior said:
My advice to you is: Don't waste your time!
Spoken as if from Christ Himself. :bow:
He discovered that he couldn't refute my position nor properly explain the very clear verses I quoted in support of my position, and he tries very hard to "encourage" others not to post to me.

His biggest problem is quoting any verse that actually says, in plain and straightforward language, that salvation can be lost.
 
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BCsenior

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But if a person was truly saved, they would have proven it by doing all the things you've been talking about, right? Well, the person who's works were burned up obviously didn't do all those things, and therefore didn't prove he loved the Lord. Yet he still had his salvation.
You need to distinguish the difference between:
"works" required for salvation
vs. other "works" for rewards.

These are examples of what is necessary to be saved:
enduring belief/faith
enduring trust in Jesus
enduring obedience
These are not really works, but Romans 12:1 ...
... the reasonable (expected) service unto the Lord.

For others, ask the Lord.
 
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FreeGrace2

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You need to distinguish the difference between:
"works" required for salvation
vs. other "works" for rewards.
Once again, someone needs to ask this poster for verses that make this distinction.

These are examples of what is necessary to be saved:
enduring belief/faith
enduring trust in Jesus
enduring obedience
These are not really works, but Romans 12:1 ...
... the reasonable (expected) service unto the Lord.
Once again, someone needs to ask this poster for verses that support his claim.
 
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Strong in Him

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This is SO ridiculous!
Jesus did all that ... so some would have a chance!

I don't see that in Scripture.
Jesus gave his life as a ransom, went through all that agony so that SOME would have a CHANCE??

No; he came to seek and save the lost, Luke 19:10 and died for sinners, Romans 5:8.
Who are the sinners in this world? Romans 3:23.

Whether you like it, believe it, or not ...
all humans are destined for hell.

We WERE, before Jesus.

But, because of Jesus ...
some have a chance to escape hell.

ALL have a chance to escape hell - it's just that not all will.
You have said yourself in another thread that some will choose to walk away and some will chose to continue to walk in the flesh. That doesn't mean that God never gave them the chance to be saved; it means they chose not to take it.

The point of Jesus doing all that He did ... was so
some humans would have a chance to escape hell.

See above.

But, these ones have a part to play in their salvation!

No.
Jesus didn't die to give us a chance, and if we DO enough, or the right things, we will make that chance a certainty.

It is a co-operative effort between God and man!

No.
When Adam sinned, the relationship between God and man was broken; spoiled. We could do nothing at all to un-break it and restore ourselves to God.
You are correct to say that we deserved death and punishment. God would have been perfectly entitled to destroy Adam and Eve and start again - and destroy every person after them who sinned. He would also have been entitled to leave us in our sin; let us face the consequences.
He chose to do neither - he chose to offer us a way to make atonement and be forgiven. All people after Adam offered animal sacrifices to God. The idea being that if they offered an animal, a source of income, to be killed; that would cost them and would show that they were sorry for their sins.
But it didn't work. Instead, people just seemed to do what they wanted, and offer sacrifices to get forgiveness.
So God sent Jesus to become a sacrifice for us, John 1:29, John 10:11, Mark 10:45 - instead of THEM offering sacrifices; he would.
Jesus HAS, therefore, saved us from eternal death by reconciling us to God, 2 Corinthians 5:18, giving us eternal life, 1 John 5:12 and peace with God, Romans 5:1. Those who accept this ARE reconciled to God; if they died a few hours afterwards, they would be forgiven and clean, instead of dead in their sins.

Sanctification is a lifelong process, 2 Corinthians 3:18 - and we are told to remain in Jesus, John 15:4, put God first, Matthew 6:33 and continue to walk in the Spirit, Romans 8. We don't DO these things first, and then get saved if we are successful. We can't live IN Jesus, until we have come to him, been saved and forgiven by him and filled with his Spirit.
We are saved by him - then we continue in him until we have been sanctified.
 
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BCsenior

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I don't see that in Scripture.
Sorry, salvation is a process ...
which ends at the end of one's life!

Those BACs who co-operate with the precious Holy Spirit
during the long process of sanctification
(which includes being victorious over sin, Satan, etc.)
these ones are the elect ... the overcomers!

Jesus tells us who the overcomers are
in Revelation 3:21.
 
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FreeGrace2

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Sorry, salvation is a process ...
which ends at the end of one's life!
This statement demonstrates a lack of understanding of salvation.

Past tense: we were saved from the penalty of sin. Justification
Present tense: we are being saved from the power of sin. Sanctification
Future tense: we will be saved from the presence of sin. Glorification

Only through discernment and rightly dividing the word of truth will one understand which tense is being mentioned when reading Scripture.

Example: Therefore, my dear friends, as you have always obeyed—not only in my presence, but now much more in my absence—continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling, Phil 2:12

Those unfamiliar with the 3 tenses of salvation usually use this verse to support the notion that salvation requires the believer to use effort to be saved.

Yet, this verse is referring to the present tense of salvation: sanctification; being saved from the power of sin.

Which occurs only when IN fellowship through confession (1 John 1) and being filled with the Holy Spirit (Eph 5:18)

Those BACs who co-operate with the precious Holy Spirit
during the long process of sanctification
(which includes being victorious over sin, Satan, etc.)
these ones are the elect ... the overcomers!

Jesus tells us who the overcomers are
in Revelation 3:21.
1 John 5:4 speaks of all believers being "overcomers", but clearly identifies what the overcomer IS.

4 for everyone born of God overcomes the world. This is the victory that has overcome the world, even our faith. 5 Who is it that overcomes the world? Only the one who believes that Jesus is the Son of God.

But, in the 7 letters to the the 7 churches in Rev 2 and 3, the overcomers are those believers who endured and will earn rewards.

Context is king.
 
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ace of hearts

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FreeGrace2 said:
Is this a condition for recipients of eternal life to meet in order to never perish?

My question was directed at your statement which was attacked to my statement:
"John 10:28 tells us that recipients of eternal life, which is the MOMENT of saving faith, per John 3:16, 5:24, 6:47, shall never perish.

It could not be more clear than that.

So, the moment of saving faith, the believer receives eternal life, and from that MOMENT, shall never perish."

And your statement:
"Only as long as they don't turn on Jesus for the world like Demas did."

My question is about whether your view is that IF one does "turn on Jesus for the world like Demas did" would result in loss of salvation.

Hope this clarifies.
I think that would be a yes. A person doesn't give up free will upon accepting Jesus as Savior. They can turn their back on Jesus.

What do you think about the parable of the sower?

Mat 13:3 And he spake many things unto them in parables, saying, Behold, a sower went forth to sow;

4 And when he sowed, some seeds fell by the way side, and the fowls came and devoured them up:

5 Some fell upon stony places, where they had not much earth: and forthwith they sprung up, because they had no deepness of earth:

6 And when the sun was up, they were scorched; and because they had no root, they withered away.

7 And some fell among thorns; and the thorns sprung up, and choked them:

8 But other fell into good ground, and brought forth fruit, some an hundredfold, some sixtyfold, some thirtyfold.

9 Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.
 
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ace of hearts

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But only if their works were made of the things the fire didn't consume. If even ALL of their works had been burned up, does that indicate that they lived their lives in obedience in following all of Christ's commands? If they did, their works would not be wood, hay and stubble. But the example is given, and Paul says that even though his works were burned up, he was still saved.
BTW, those points you mention are all conclusions, not actual works.
No

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Also see Rom 4.
 
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ace of hearts

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I don't see that in Scripture.
Jesus gave his life as a ransom, went through all that agony so that SOME would have a CHANCE??

No; he came to seek and save the lost, Luke 19:10 and died for sinners, Romans 5:8.
Who are the sinners in this world? Romans 3:23.



We WERE, before Jesus.



ALL have a chance to escape hell - it's just that not all will.
You have said yourself in another thread that some will choose to walk away and some will chose to continue to walk in the flesh. That doesn't mean that God never gave them the chance to be saved; it means they chose not to take it.



See above.



No.
Jesus didn't die to give us a chance, and if we DO enough, or the right things, we will make that chance a certainty.



No.
When Adam sinned, the relationship between God and man was broken; spoiled. We could do nothing at all to un-break it and restore ourselves to God.
You are correct to say that we deserved death and punishment. God would have been perfectly entitled to destroy Adam and Eve and start again - and destroy every person after them who sinned. He would also have been entitled to leave us in our sin; let us face the consequences.
He chose to do neither - he chose to offer us a way to make atonement and be forgiven. All people after Adam offered animal sacrifices to God. The idea being that if they offered an animal, a source of income, to be killed; that would cost them and would show that they were sorry for their sins.
But it didn't work. Instead, people just seemed to do what they wanted, and offer sacrifices to get forgiveness.
So God sent Jesus to become a sacrifice for us, John 1:29, John 10:11, Mark 10:45 - instead of THEM offering sacrifices; he would.
Jesus HAS, therefore, saved us from eternal death by reconciling us to God, 2 Corinthians 5:18, giving us eternal life, 1 John 5:12 and peace with God, Romans 5:1. Those who accept this ARE reconciled to God; if they died a few hours afterwards, they would be forgiven and clean, instead of dead in their sins.

Sanctification is a lifelong process, 2 Corinthians 3:18 - and we are told to remain in Jesus, John 15:4, put God first, Matthew 6:33 and continue to walk in the Spirit, Romans 8. We don't DO these things first, and then get saved if we are successful. We can't live IN Jesus, until we have come to him, been saved and forgiven by him and filled with his Spirit.
We are saved by him - then we continue in him until we have been sanctified.
Interesting
 
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ace of hearts

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Sorry, salvation is a process ...
which ends at the end of one's life!

Those BACs who co-operate with the precious Holy Spirit
during the long process of sanctification
(which includes being victorious over sin, Satan, etc.)
these ones are the elect ... the overcomers!

Jesus tells us who the overcomers are
in Revelation 3:21.
No salvation isn't a process -


JN 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

JN 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
 
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