You couldn't make this up...

Pavel Mosko

Arch-Dude of the Apostolic
Supporter
Oct 4, 2016
7,236
7,312
56
Boyertown, PA.
✟768,575.00
Country
United States
Faith
Oriental Orthodox
Marital Status
Single
Upvote 0

chevyontheriver

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Sep 29, 2015
19,169
16,008
Flyoverland
✟1,224,031.00
Country
United States
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-American-Solidarity
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

The Liturgist

Traditional Liturgical Christian
Supporter
Nov 26, 2019
10,927
5,591
49
The Wild West
✟461,572.00
Country
United States
Faith
Generic Orthodox Christian
Marital Status
Celibate

Actually it seems reasonable to me considering that in the Church of England, there are ultra-Anglo Catholic parishes known for celebrating the Latin Mass, such as St. Magnus the Martyr, and separately, if we look at All Saints Margaret Street and St. Bartholomew the Great in London, and St. Thomas 5th Ave in the US, and at least historically, St. Mary’s in Toronto, which became home to the great Canadian Anglican composer Healey Willan, who many regard as the greatest Canadian composer bar none, we find parishes which while using Anglican liturgy do so using ceremonial and music adapted from the traditional Latin mass with a high degree of precision. See also the Directorum Anglicanorum and Ritual Notes, 19th century Anglican typika, to use a Byzantine word, for guides on how to use the Book of Common Prayer in the most Anglican way possible.

To use an Anglicism I love, the Roman Catholics tried “Hoovering up” (or “vacuuming up” as we say stateside probably given the historic equal popularity of Eureka and to a much lesser extent, Electrolux, vacuums in the United States before other brands like Dirt Devil, Oreck and Dyson managed to crack the market wide open) Anglo Catholics with the Anglican Rite Ordinariates, and they got some, but I feel they mainly got the Anglo Papalists, who were Anglo Catholics who desired full reunion between Anglicanism and the RCC.

One thing I’ve noticed, and please correct me if I am wrong @Paidiske and @Philip_B since you actually work and live in the Australian church, is that even discounting the relative extreme of the Archdiocese of Sydney, Anglicanism in Australia is a bit more low church than in the UK, whereas in the US, perhaps due to the connection with the Scottish Episcopalians, it is more consistently Anglo Catholic. Indeed in my early childhood I visited some Anglican churches which looked identical to some older Roman Catholic churches, such as the beautiful California missions. I have distant memories of one in the Southwest, perhaps in Tucson or Albuquerque…
 
Upvote 0

Paidiske

Clara bonam audax
Supporter
Apr 25, 2016
34,110
19,006
43
Albury, Australia
Visit site
✟1,473,476.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Married
One thing I’ve noticed, and please correct me if I am wrong @Paidiske and @Philip_B since you actually work and live in the Australian church, is that even discounting the relative extreme of the Archdiocese of Sydney, Anglicanism in Australia is a bit more low church than in the UK, whereas in the US, perhaps due to the connection with the Scottish Episcopalians, it is more consistently Anglo Catholic.

My sense is that it is true that the Episcopal church in America is more consistently high church than here, but I don't know that it's true that Anglicanism in Australia is more low church than the UK. I think there is enormous diversity of churchmanship in both countries.

Side note, but on Thursday/Friday I was away at a clergy event, and Thursday marked the feast of the birth of Mary, Mother of our Lord. Which meant a Marian focus to our Eucharist and prayer services. I'm now in a more catholic diocese than I came from, or am used to, and I had real difficulty with some of the hymns chosen and things said in that situation. So experiences like that might also colour my answer!
 
  • Informative
Reactions: The Liturgist
Upvote 0

The Liturgist

Traditional Liturgical Christian
Supporter
Nov 26, 2019
10,927
5,591
49
The Wild West
✟461,572.00
Country
United States
Faith
Generic Orthodox Christian
Marital Status
Celibate
My sense is that it is true that the Episcopal church in America is more consistently high church than here, but I don't know that it's true that Anglicanism in Australia is more low church than the UK. I think there is enormous diversity of churchmanship in both countries.

Side note, but on Thursday/Friday I was away at a clergy event, and Thursday marked the feast of the birth of Mary, Mother of our Lord. Which meant a Marian focus to our Eucharist and prayer services. I'm now in a more catholic diocese than I came from, or am used to, and I had real difficulty with some of the hymns chosen and things said in that situation. So experiences like that might also colour my answer!

Indeed, you strike me as being an extremely doctrinally orthodox, strict 39 Articles sort of Anglican. And in the US we do have some continuing Anglican churches like that, and in some regions Low Church Anglicanism which is so low church that Morning Prayer is preferred to the Eucharist was reported to me as existing in some parts of Virginia by one Episcopalian priest.

You might well be right about the UK and AU having a balance of churchmanship. The reason why I speculated Australia was less high church was due to a combination of the 39 Articles being in effect and the largest city, Sydney, being extremely low church, but Australia is an entire continent and perhaps it makes more sense to consider each archdiocese in its own context?

I would be interested to know what the most Anglo Catholic churches are in your opinion in Australia, by the way.

To me it seems natural that Anglo Catholics would go after people who were hurt by Traditiones Custodes, because even in England you historically had in addition to Prayer Book Catholics a related group known as Missal Catholics, who used English translations of the Missale Romanum. And Anglicanism was not subject to Vatican II and more specifically, the Novus Ordo Missae, and so at Anglican churches, while some cathedrals in the UK, indeed a great many, have placed communion tables in front of the Chancel, others still use the High Altar, and Ad Orientem services are still a thing, whereas that is extremely rare in the Roman Rite, even if it is allowed. What is uncommon is seeing an altar constructed immediately in front of another altar so as to facilitate Ad Orientem worship as in many Roman Catholic churches.

Also the Liberal Catholic faction in the Episcopal Church and some other Anglican jurisdictions has appealed to people who objected to certain doctrinal decisions of the Roman church, for example, not ordaining women, but who like Roman Catholic liturgy. Conversely, you have Anglicans who went the other way and became Catholic or Orthodox.

I could link you to some videos of ultra high church services in London and the US and some Tridentine masses for comparison, because the similarity is remarkable. If one did not speak English, one might think they were celebrating the same liturgy in some cases.

As you know I am a big fan of Rev. Percy Dearmer, who was high church, but also wanted a distinctly Anglican identity, including the use of traditional Anglican altars, derived from those of the Sarum Rite, in use until 1552, which actually look quite different from their Roman Rite counterparts. So he did not want to see more than two candles on the altar, for example. His book, The Parson’s Handbook, is interesting because it outlines beautiful ways of celebrating the different liturgical services in the BCP. If it were more widely followed by Anglo Catholics, some disaffected former Tridentine mass attendees might convert but the services would look quite different.

By the way, I find it interesting that a higher percentage of chancel screens survived in the UK than in the Continent, because the Anglican church had for some time a policy of retaining the chancel, whereas the Dominicans and Franciscans wanted to get rid of chancel and rood screens. Speaking of which, I think there are two authentic rood screens left in the C of E. There is an interesting chapter on church architecture in the Oxford Guide to the Book of Common Prayer, which is a thrilling book in all respects.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Paidiske

Clara bonam audax
Supporter
Apr 25, 2016
34,110
19,006
43
Albury, Australia
Visit site
✟1,473,476.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Married
The reason why I speculated Australia was less high church was due to a combination of the 39 Articles being in effect and the largest city, Sydney, being extremely low church, but Australia is an entire continent and perhaps it makes more sense to consider each archdiocese in its own context?

I would be interested to know what the most Anglo Catholic churches are in your opinion in Australia, by the way.

I think you have to consider each diocese on its own terms. There are places - Sydney, Tasmania - which are very low church, and places - Ballarat, Wangaratta among them - which are more high church.

Are you asking about parishes or dioceses in that last line I've quoted?
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

The Liturgist

Traditional Liturgical Christian
Supporter
Nov 26, 2019
10,927
5,591
49
The Wild West
✟461,572.00
Country
United States
Faith
Generic Orthodox Christian
Marital Status
Celibate
I think you have to consider each diocese on its own terms. There are places - Sydney, Tasmania - which are very low church, and places - Ballarat, Wangaratta among them - which are more high church.

Are you asking about parishes or dioceses in that last line I've quoted?

Actually both, although particularly high church parishes are of particular interest because if I like them, and they upload to a YouTube Channel, I subscribe and also add their best videos to my saved playlists. So currently I am among other parishes subscribed to St. Thomas 5th Ave in the US and several other Episcopal churches, St. Bartholomew the Great, St. Stephen Walbrook and St. Bride Fleet Street in the Square Mile of the City of London, All Saints Margaret Street and St. Martin-in-the-Fields in the adjacent City of Westminster, and a few others, such as York Minster, and in Canada, I keep pleading with @MarkRohfrietsch to get his Lutheran parish, which has exquisite liturgy, to stream to YouTube as I dislike Facebook. I have some Australian churches in my subscriptions already, but not enough.

Because of the timezone difference, Australian churches can be very pleasant to listen to late on Saturday night if I have insomnia. Australia is also the only place where the Assyrian Church of the East has English language services. Having some extreme Anglo Catholic churches on the list would be a huge enhancement. Also if your church streams I would love to hear that.

It would also be interesting to see a comparison of churchmanship on a regional, archdiocesan or diocesan basis. I was surprised by how low church Sydney was, in that I was at least expecting a cassock and tippet or a Geneva gown with hood, but their priests were in business suits without so much as a clerical collar. That being said, their cathedral does have a very good choir which has been featured on BBC Radio 3.
 
Upvote 0

Philip_B

Bread is Blessed & Broken Wine is Blessed & Poured
Supporter
Jul 12, 2016
5,382
5,501
72
Swansea, NSW, Australia
Visit site
✟602,339.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Married
It would also be interesting to see a comparison of churchmanship on a regional, archdiocesan or diocesan basis. I was surprised by how low church Sydney was, in that I was at least expecting a cassock and tippet or a Geneva gown with hood, but their priests were in business suits without so much as a clerical collar. That being said, their cathedral does have a very good choir which has been featured on BBC Radio 3.
Now of course that is very up-market. There are many parishes in Sydney where a T-shirt with jeans and thongs (as in the footwear version) would be considered the appropriate liturgical attire.

There are people who will point out that Sydney is not monochrome. Two parishes in the CBD both uphold a very different standard, Christ Church St Laurence on Railway Square, and St Jame's King Street near the High Court. Sydney is a city of nearly 5 million people, so there are some choices for those who want to move around a little, none the less the predominant trend in the Diocese make Calvin and Zwingli look pretty catholic.

In the end, for me. it is not so much about the churchmanship as it is the theology. I have come to a position most likely seen as 'prima-scriptura' which is somewhat different from a version of 'sola-scriptura' which is taken by many as 'me and my bible'. The doctrine of propositional revelation* which I don't accept has been hammered hard in the Diocese. About ten years ago it was driven to the precipice of schism, and then seemed to ease back, and now I am not so sure.

The Diocese of Newcastle (across the river to the north of Sydney) was founded in the wake of the Oxford Movement and was historically a much more Anglo-Catholic Diocese than its southern neighbour founded in the midst of the Irish Potato Famine. There has been a decline in the catholic edge in Newcastle over the past 40 years, and the Diocese is looking far more moderate and diverse than ever. Part of this has come from the growing expanse of Sydney, and the southern third of the Diocese in Newcastle is now largely a dormitory for people who work in Sydney and whose lives look to Sydney as the centre.

* God reveals himself in propositions. These propositions are in the 66 books of the Bible. Therefore scripture is the inerrant word of God. The fundamentalist push of the Jensenites coming initially out of St Matthias Kensington, pushed this even further, and to my mind is undoubtedly part of the root of the tensions which now sees cracks emerging in the Anglican Church of Australia.

Please note that my primary objections to the Doctrine of Propositional Revelation are that I believe God reveals himself to us in many and varied ways, and pre-eminently in his Son, Jesus Christ our Lord. The natural extension of the Doctrine leads to the position where humanity if devalued (because we are then made in the image of a proposition), and God is made the prisioner of a book (well 66 books to be more precise).​
 
  • Like
Reactions: The Liturgist
Upvote 0

The Liturgist

Traditional Liturgical Christian
Supporter
Nov 26, 2019
10,927
5,591
49
The Wild West
✟461,572.00
Country
United States
Faith
Generic Orthodox Christian
Marital Status
Celibate
Now of course that is very up-market. There are many parishes in Sydney where a T-shirt with jeans and thongs (as in the footwear version) would be considered the appropriate liturgical attire.

There are people who will point out that Sydney is not monochrome. Two parishes in the CBD both uphold a very different standard, Christ Church St Laurence on Railway Square, and St Jame's King Street near the High Court. Sydney is a city of nearly 5 million people, so there are some choices for those who want to move around a little, none the less the predominant trend in the Diocese make Calvin and Zwingli look pretty catholic.

In the end, for me. it is not so much about the churchmanship as it is the theology. I have come to a position most likely seen as 'prima-scriptura' which is somewhat different from a version of 'sola-scriptura' which is taken by many as 'me and my bible'. The doctrine of propositional revelation* which I don't accept has been hammered hard in the Diocese. About ten years ago it was driven to the precipice of schism, and then seemed to ease back, and now I am not so sure.

The Diocese of Newcastle (across the river to the north of Sydney) was founded in the wake of the Oxford Movement and was historically a much more Anglo-Catholic Diocese than its southern neighbour founded in the midst of the Irish Potato Famine. There has been a decline in the catholic edge in Newcastle over the past 40 years, and the Diocese is looking far more moderate and diverse than ever. Part of this has come from the growing expanse of Sydney, and the southern third of the Diocese in Newcastle is now largely a dormitory for people who work in Sydney and whose lives look to Sydney as the centre.

* God reveals himself in propositions. These propositions are in the 66 books of the Bible. Therefore scripture is the inerrant word of God. The fundamentalist push of the Jensenites coming initially out of St Matthias Kensington, pushed this even further, and to my mind is undoubtedly part of the root of the tensions which now sees cracks emerging in the Anglican Church of Australia.

Please note that my primary objections to the Doctrine of Propositional Revelation are that I believe God reveals himself to us in many and varied ways, and pre-eminently in his Son, Jesus Christ our Lord. The natural extension of the Doctrine leads to the position where humanity if devalued (because we are then made in the image of a proposition), and God is made the prisioner of a book (well 66 books to be more precise).​

Very interesting. So the parishes you mentioned, are they conventionally high church but not Anglo-Catholic, or what?
 
Upvote 0

Philip_B

Bread is Blessed & Broken Wine is Blessed & Poured
Supporter
Jul 12, 2016
5,382
5,501
72
Swansea, NSW, Australia
Visit site
✟602,339.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Married
Very interesting. So the parishes you mentioned, are they conventionally high church but not Anglo-Catholic, or what?
CCSL would be described as Anglo-Catholic
St James Kings Street - solidly English in the High Church Tradition
St Matthias Centennial Park - utterly conventional, able to dangle the legs over the edge of a tram ticket.
 
  • Winner
Reactions: The Liturgist
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Paidiske

Clara bonam audax
Supporter
Apr 25, 2016
34,110
19,006
43
Albury, Australia
Visit site
✟1,473,476.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Married
Having some extreme Anglo Catholic churches on the list would be a huge enhancement. Also if your church streams I would love to hear that.

Philip has mentioned a couple of the places which immediately spring to mind. In Melbourne you could try St. Peter's East Melbourne. I don't know which of the other places I could think of have any streaming, but I will try to find some time to research for you later. My parish doesn't stream, and sadly I don't see it doing so any time soon; technical expertise to do it well not being a strong point here.
 
  • Winner
Reactions: The Liturgist
Upvote 0