You can't be a Christian and...

[Shea Rodriguez]

Its not up to us to decide if we are a "Christian".
This is solely and only decided by God, who creates us to be a "Christian", and this is not based on anyone's "behavior".
Its based on the Atonement.
Its based on being SAVED.
After this, after you are born again, then your lifestyle should reflect the HOLY God who saved you.
Often it wont, but God didnt save you because of your lifestyle, He saved you because you TRUSTED CHRIST.

"you take Christ, God takes you".

"No one who puts a hand to the plow and looks back is fit for service in the kingdom of God." Luke 9:62 There is more to salvation than being called and accepting Jesus as our savior, or else there would be no need of mentioning a narrow gate. Many will be called to the free gift of salvation (that no works can achieve), but only a few will actually make that narrow gate (because they walked in the instruction of Christ and not in the ways of the world/Satan).

 

[Strivax]

Perhaps I should have said; your desire to stay or become wealthy. Otherwise, I do not see why anything I have said on this thread should be offensive to you, or anyone else. Unless, of course, you think it only right and just and good that the wealthy should continue to accrue luxuries beyond the dreams of avarice all the while there are hungry, malnourished and starving people in the world.

Best wishes, Strivax.

 

[Albion]

Perhaps I should have said; your desire to stay or become wealthy. .

I don't have any desire to become wealthy. So "nice try" is the best rating I can give that one.

 

[Monna]

Galatians 5:6
For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision has any value. The only thing that counts is faith expressing itself through love.

I take this to mean that it is neither what we do, nor what we don't do, that counts with God. Only faith, expressing itself through love.

And famously 1 Corinthians 13 (with special reference to giving away your wealth)
If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels (for example an extremely gifted speaker, effective evangelist, Bible teacher, counsellor) but have not love, I am a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. And if I have prophetic powers, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. If I give away all I have, and if I deliver my body to be burned, but have not love, I gain nothing.

(I don't mean to imply that you shouldn't give, I mean that you shouldn't do it simply to fulfill a law, soothe your conscience, or look good. If it isn't done out of the motive of love, it doesn't count with God. Inversely, if we keep our money/wealth/material goods out of selfish love of ourselves, or for our own financial security, then we are not "denying ourselves, taking up our crosses and following him." Nor can we clam to being "living sacrifices" as Paul puts it. If anyone thinks I'm pointing a finger at them, know that in doing so I have three pointing back at me! I have absolutely nothing to be proud of in this area of my life.)

In the Lord's prayer we recite "forgive us our debts as we forgive our debtors." Our debts are all those things we should have done for others but didn't - which at least in my case are far more in number and importance than those wrong things that I have done.

 

[Strivax]

I don't have any desire to become wealthy. So "nice try" is the best rating I can give that one.

And your attacks on me are similarly wide of mark. So, why don't we just dispense with the ad hominems, and debate the issue? Of course, to do that, you would have to read the thread, which so far you exhibit no sign of having done, or intention to do.

Best wishes, Strivax.

 

[lben]

Wow! What extremes are possible here!

The liberal extreme
*You can be a Christian and do whatever you want along with an invitation to 'sin boldly!"

The conservative extremes

What you call conservatives are not. They are legalists. Big difference.

 

[lben]

Sola Scriptura isn't biblical either.

Yes it is! Adding to it, altering it, taking away from it are all forbidden.

 

[Albion]

What you call conservatives are not. They are legalists. Big difference.

What I was thinking also. The word "conservatives" is misused in that post. And some of the points are so out of the mainstream that even "fundamentalists" doesn't seem right.

 

[chihwahli]

"If I did not want to know Jesus and do do things my way then I couldn't consider myself to really be Christian."
Bible verse: 1 John 2:6 "Whoever claims to live in him must live as Jesus did."
My explanation: By faith you trust in Jesus in everything He said. By action you show what is really inside your heart and mind. What you really find important, who is your lives goal. And who is really your focus point in live.

 

[patdee]

Wondering everyone's thoughts what is and is not permissible and still, in all honesty, consider yourself a Christian. I'd like to keep the topic is non-judgmental as possible, so when considering the definition of a Christian, use yourself for said examination. In other words:

"If I did <X> I couldn't consider myself to really be Christian." Define X. Be as general or specific as you wish, but please back up any claims with Scripture.

Example:

You can't be a Christian and hate your brother or sister (1 John 4:20).

Wondering everyone's thoughts what is and is not permissible and still, in all honesty, consider yourself a Christian. I'd like to keep the topic is non-judgmental as possible, so when considering the definition of a Christian, use yourself for said examination. In other words:

"If I did <X> I couldn't consider myself to really be Christian." Define X. Be as general or specific as you wish, but please back up any claims with Scripture.

Example:

You can't be a Christian and hate your brother or sister (1 John 4:20).

--------------------------------------------------

I often chuckle when someone asks me "What is a Christian?"

The reason I chuckle is: If you were to ask EVERY one in the world that question, you would get as many answers almost as people on earth. Oh indeed yes. For EVERY one; even non Christians espouse (often) what a Christian is; what they should do; and what they can't do, etc, etc and etc.

In fact, a Christian is ANY one; man or woman; adult or child, black, brown or white; "jew or gentile", etc, etc and etc; who has been "Born Again"!

John 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. John 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water 'from' the Holy Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

The name "Christian" is derived from the word "Christ". It is tantamount to a person being "born" in Florida who is called a "Floridian". Or "Californian" or Virginian". etc, etc, and etc.

So it does NOT matter what a Floridian, Californian or Virginian does, says or thinks, they are STILL a Floridian, Californian or Virginian.

This is the SAME scenario with Christians. For IF one had to obey EVERY thing that Christians, and non Christians say, NO one could EVER be a Christian, period. This is because we are all sinners and we never stop sinning until Judgment Day; thus NO one could fulfill the requirements. It is that simple. Thus we ALL have failed Jesus (Almighty God) since Adam and Eve.

This is why Jesus made being a Christian so very easy. ALL a person has to do is to believe "IN" Jesus. Once Jesus sees a person is sincere in believing that He WAS the Messiah, they are Born Again, and a Christian forever.

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. John 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

AND...........

John 10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

AND...........

Mark 3:28 Verily I say unto you, All sins shall be forgiven unto the sons of men, and blasphemies wherewith soever they shall blaspheme: Mark 3:29 But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation.

Note: Blaspheming against the Holy Ghost is the ONLY sin ANY one can commit that sends them to hell. And they can ONLY commit that sin the moment they die or*. IE: As long as a person is alive; they can still be born again; even on their dying breath; IF they sincerely believe IN Jesus. Period.

* But IF they do not accept Jesus to be the Messiah (savior); OR Jesus deems that they NEVER would accept Him; regardless of how long He lets them live; they will have "Blasphemed" the voice of Jesus (Holy Ghost or Spirit) and they have committed the ultimate sin. Thus they receive the ultimate punishment in hell ("Burning lake of fire").

For ALL other sins, regardless of what they are; WILL be forgiven on Judgment day. Believe it or not. Read Mark 3:28 and 29 again.

Sadly, Christians and non Christians have attached a plethora of "reasons" why a person goes to hell. NONE of it is true except for the ultimate sin. For IF it was true we ALL go to hell period.

Isaiah 64:6 But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities (sins, transgressions and abominations), like the wind, have taken us away.

Romans 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

1 John 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. That means you are a liar if you say you do not sin. Oh indeed yes.

Again, a "Christian" is any one that has received the second birth; as one of the thieves on the cross did.

What they do from that point on (in the flesh) determines whether they will be blessed or punished (or both by Jesus) while on earth. Thus; true justice of the flesh has been fulfilled and adjudicated at death.

Only one sin waits until Judgment Day; where those that have been born again will receive a 100% pardon (regardless of what they have done, said or thought); and the lost (non born again) will receive a 99% pardon (regardless of what they have done, said or thought with one exception); and that is, they have blasphemed against the HS. Thus they are cast into hell; the ultimate punishment because they have committed the ultimate sin. Believe it or not.

Leviticus 26:28 Then I will walk contrary unto you also in fury; and I, even I, will chastise (punish) you seven times for your sins (while IN the flesh).

Finally; I "quoted scripture" because the author of this thread requested it. However it is NOT necessary. The bible is not now; nor has it ever been the ultimate "authority" on truth. For that title belongs exclusively to Jesus:

John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. (NO other entity ever is truth void of errors! NOT a single writer of any scripture is immune to error and fallibility.) Believe it or not. In addition: Because something is not in the bible; does NOT mean it is not a fact! Follow along:

Truth comes from Jesus. Often by speaking through His "messenger's" mouth. Oh indeed yes.

Matthew 10:19 But when they deliver you up, take no thought how or what ye shall speak: for it shall be given you in that same hour what ye shall speak.

Luke 12:11 And when they bring you unto the synagogues, and unto magistrates, and powers, take ye no thought how or what thing ye shall answer, or what ye shall say: Luke 12:12 For the Holy Ghost shall teach you in the same hour what ye ought to say.

In any case, may Jesus richly bless you and yours always 10 fold for the good deeds you do In the flesh; while justifiably punishing you for the wicked things you do "7 fold", IN the flesh.

 

[surrender1]

Wondering everyone's thoughts what is and is not permissible and still, in all honesty, consider yourself a Christian. I'd like to keep the topic is non-judgmental as possible, so when considering the definition of a Christian, use yourself for said examination. In other words:

"If I did <X> I couldn't consider myself to really be Christian." Define X. Be as general or specific as you wish, but please back up any claims with Scripture.

Example:

You can't be a Christian and hate your brother or sister (1 John 4:20).

Yep, that's about it. You can't be a Christian and hate.

 

[marineimaging]

Wondering everyone's thoughts what is and is not permissible and still, in all honesty, consider yourself a Christian. I'd like to keep the topic is non-judgmental as possible, so when considering the definition of a Christian, use yourself for said examination. In other words:

"If I did <X> I couldn't consider myself to really be Christian." Define X. Be as general or specific as you wish, but please back up any claims with Scripture.

Example:

You can't be a Christian and hate your brother or sister (1 John 4:20).

I could not call myself a Christian and at the same time live an openly sinful lifestyle in such a way that I would be slapping God in the face every waking second. I sin every day. We ALL fall short of the Glory of God. But I also desire and try to mold myself to what and who God intends us to be through our behavior. To better answer that I mean to live openly, aggressively, without visible remorse or even an attempt to reconcile with our Lord living as a homosexual, as a murderer, as an adulterer, as an arsonist, as a hater of God, as a hate-filled bully, as a vocal Anti-Christian, as an anti-semitic, as a degrader of others..., and the list goes on. Again, I sin every day but I am talking about living in "openly sinful and loving it with a don't tell me what to do" sense about me way. I don't think it is so much hypocritical as it is being aware that as you move closer to Christ it is more fulfilling to do it from a personal place than of one being considered someone who is against Christ. To better explain, I consider someone who lives a sinners lifestyle to be completely different than one who sins once and then repents and steers away from that lifestyle living according to Christ as much as humanly possible. A person who, on a whim or weakness tried a homosexual act v one who lives it every day and emotionally slaps God in the face. A person who might have killed once vs a serial killer who gets joy out of killing and maiming and doesn't even try to change. A person who got caught in the moment of lust and desired his brothers wife vs. the one who brags about his many conquests and doesn't care who he hurts as long as he gets what he wants out of it. The man with 20 children by 20 different women and never married to any. We all fall short, but that doesn't mean we can't strive every day to live according to Christ. That person who tries and tries and tries..., I call him a Christian. That person who slaps God in the face and then goes to Church for 1 hour... he has to face God. Not me. And this wasn't about what I call them. It is about what I call myself and why I wouldn't call myself a Christian v why I do.

 

[Archivist]

I was informed in another thread that to be a Christian one must believe in a literal reading of the six-day creation described in Genesis. No, that is not my view.

 

[lsume]

"No one who puts a hand to the plow and looks back is fit for service in the kingdom of God." Luke 9:62 There is more to salvation than being called and accepting Jesus as our savior, or else there would be no need of mentioning a narrow gate. Many will be called to the free gift of salvation (that no works can achieve), but only a few will actually make that narrow gate (because they walked in the instruction of Christ and not in the ways of the world/Satan).

Also, ye shall through much tribulation enter into The Kingdom of Heaven. Since Christ was the Firstborn among many and was taught the Fear of The Lord quickly and was broken to shivers, how much more shall His Brothers and Sisters also be broken and taught The Fear of The Lord? Christ is The Refiner and His Fire is powerful and necessary for all who hope to abide with Him in eternity. Many are called but few are chosen.

Isa.11

1. [3] And shall make him of quick understanding in the fear of the LORD: and he shall not judge after the sight of his eyes, neither reprove after the hearing of his ears:

Rev.2

1. 
   [27] And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.

Matt.22

1. [14] For many are called, but few are chosen.

Mal.3 Verses 1 to 3

1. 
   
   [1] Behold, I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me: and the Lord, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to this temple, even the messenger of the covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, he shall come, saith the LORD of hosts.
   [2] But who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth? for he is like a refiner's fire, and like fullers' soap:
   [3] And he shall sit as a refiner and purifer of silver: and he shall purify the sons of Levi, and purge them as gold and silver, that they may offer unto the LORD an offering in righteousness.

Every one of The Verses above are Spiritual and not physical and can only be understood by going through them in this life. When I was called I was clueless. I had professed Christ and been immersed in Baptism but I was lost. I was living a sinful life believing that I had been born again. The true born again experience is beyond my words and is definitely something that you will never forget. Jesus The Christ prepared me and explained to me what was going to happen in a way that I could understand. I had already learned The Fear of The Lord. I was in a fast and one Friday night exiting our bedroom I was suspended over the lake of fire. I was terrified and there was absolutely nothing that I could do about it. I don't know how long I was in that state but suffice it to say that it was an adequate amount of time. That was the beginning of knowledge. Proverbs 1:7
The fear of The Lord is the beginning of knowledge. I had been illuminated 3 days prior to that experience and I positively knew that God The Father, and God The Son and God The Holy Spirit were very real. The scales were removed from my eyes and my ears were opened. I was embarrassed at the various Scripture that I had highlighted in my Bible. One must be like a little child to enter The Kingdom of God. I'm a mechanical engineer and had been a logical thinker. The Refiner broke me to shivers and even today over 25 years later I'm still being broken and have had at least one visit to The Refiners Fire in the last two years. That experience is totally Spiritual and extremely unpleasant. However, after He has finished, I have experienced great joy for whatever dark spot He removed. I've read a story about a ladies Bible study group who were studying the verses in Malachi 3 and made a trip to a silver smith. The smith, as I recall, had a lump of silver in the fire and one of the ladies asked him how he knew when it was time to remove the silver and he responded with "when I can see my reflection in the silver" as I recall. There are probably millions who profess to being born again that are not yet born again. This does not mean that they will not some day be born again but until one actually goes through it the truth cannot be comprehended. The Lord has revealed many mysteries to me with many more yet to be revealed according to God's Perfect Will. I have, to my knowledge, only met 4 others who have gone through the true rebirth. This brings light to The Scripture in Mathew about the many who will say in the day of judgement "Lord Lord have we not...".

Matt.7

1. [21] Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
2. [22] Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

You can't be a Christian if you use Bible quotes to beat people over the head with the club of Mosaic or moral Law.

 

[Tull]

Read the comments on world wealth, net worth, and world population. "Rich" is not as ambiguous and opinionated as you think. There are exact numbers clearly defined for those (aka social classes). Sure I own more than someone starving in Africa or other developing countries, but the amount of wealth I have compared to them is merely a penny compared to what the world's wealthiest have over me. I see your argument used over and over again to justify insane amounts of wealth that no human should ever need or have when others have horrid living conditions. I don't know if that's how you specifically intend to use it, but that's what I see too often. It's poorly constructed. "If a working class citizen in the U.S. has more wealth compared to starving families in impoverished countries, then it's okay for the top upper class to own far more wealth than the working class." That's a terrible argument. If anything, it should be, "if the working class looks 'rich' compared to starving families in impoverished countries, then the top upper class look like gods compared to the starving families. Therefore, the top upper class should obviously give to them because they have far more than is obviously necessary." If all wealth was distributed evenly throughout the world, we would all have around 30 to 40 thousand U.S. dollars a year. So if I should feel grateful for my working class salary, which is around that (and I am), then this should be everyone's salary around the world because it's good enough right?

Let's take the argument further. Starving families in impoverished countries are very poor, but they are "rich" compared to Holocaust victims that were in the concentration camps. They have practically no wealth, but the Holocaust victims had literally no wealth and no freedom. The starving families today also aren't getting thrown into gas chambers or crematoria. Therefore they should be grateful for their wealth and not complain. They shouldn't criticize others for not helping them. That sounds a bit ridiculous doesn't it? I do agree that "rich" is relative in the sense that it requires you to make comparisons, but those comparisons need to be reasonable and within appropriate geographical locations, time periods, etc. If I'm struggling to make ends meet and I'm below the poverty line, I still am "rich" compared to a medieval peasant, but that's a bad comparison. So is comparing the working class of a developed country to the working class of developing countries.

Sure,whatever allows you to point fingers at others and not look at yourself.....here's 1 Corinthians 6:9 to remind you and others that having more money than somebody else thinks you should have is not the only thing that keeps you out of heaven.

 

[Kutte]

Folks,
sadly enough, history shows plenty of people claiming to be Christians but are not following in the footsteps of Jesus Christ. A tough thing to do I must admit: "Love your enemies, do good to them which hate you. Bless them that curse you, and pray for those who do you injury."
Do you think you can do this? If not, consider yourself a fake Christian.
God bless

 

[ynneb]

You cant be a Christian and.... push old ladies into fast moving traffic.

 

[rrguy]

I don't think a single action as much as choosing to disregard a teaching, would keep me from being a Christian.

I can repent for a sin & it can be forgiven. To pick & choosing what laws suit me, or Making my own Jesus would certainly be not Christian.

 

[PollyJetix]

1 Corinthians 6:12
All things are lawful unto me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but I will not be brought under the power of any.
1 Corinthians 10:23
All things are lawful for me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but all things edify not.

The book of 1 Corinthians was actually an answer from Paul in response to a letter full of questions written to him from Corinth.
Gross misunderstanding results in not properly dividing between the questions and the answers found within 1 Corinthians.

The chapters you are quoting from contain several quotes from that lost letter. In them, Paul refutes those quotes.
For instance, look at 1 Corinthians 6:18 :
"Every sin that a man doeth is without the body; but he that committeth fornication sinneth against his own body."
Does this make sense? No. There are many sins that a man commits within his body. Sins like gluttony, fornication, adultery, drunkenness, drug abuse, etc. The first part of the sentence (every sin that a man doeth is without the body) should actually be in quotes... but quotation marks did not exist in Greek. So we have to be wise, and "rightly divide the word of truth".

The verses you quoted contain a quote that Paul is refuting also. The Corinthian church had been told by the Gnostics that "All things are lawful to a Christian" because to a Gnostic, the body is so corrupt that anything on a physical level doesn't matter on a spiritual level. That's why they claimed Jesus had not come in the flesh. Because flesh is so corrupt, in their belief. They thought that there is no way that God would take on the corruption of flesh, on a truly physical level. So they made Jesus into an apparition, with no real physical body.

That's how they arrived at "all things are lawful to me!"
And the Gnostics were influencing the Corinthian church... so they asked Paul if this statement was true.

Paul says NO!

Now, in the Greek, the word translated "but" means opposition to a former idea.
Paul opposed the idea of "all things are lawful to me!" with "but all things are not expedient... all things do not edify!" Therefore, Paul said not to be brought under the power of anything that tempts on a physical level.

The Gnostics thought that if something was physical, they were free to do it.
Because they thought physical activity cannot affect the spirit of a man.
But this is directly backward from how things really work.

The truth is that the spirit man shapes the way we live on a physical level.
What we believe, and Who we love, change the way we live.

God Himself inhabits our bodies, and sanctifies our bodies to be His living, breathing temple.
How then could we focus on what is "lawful?" --Or on what we can get away with?

That's the approach of the Pharisee--whose heart is cold toward God.
One who truly loves God doesn't think like this.

Rightly divide the Word. It makes all the difference.