Yoga Stations of the Cross?

JoabAnias

Steward of proportionality- I Cor 13:1, 1 Tim 3:15
Supporter
Nov 26, 2007
21,200
3,283
✟82,874.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
FYI, here's a link with info on Yoga Stations.

Apparently an young artist was contemplating the stations as he was doing Yoga, and ended up painting the Stations of the Cross where Jesus suffering incorporating Yoga poses.

As the participant goes through the poses, he reflects on the suffering of Christ in that station.

Stations of the Cross Catholic Prayers Commissioning Religious Paintings and Sacred Art


Its not for everyone and I can see how those who know nothing about Yoga exercise would react negatively.

Doesn't make it wrong however, and in fact, I see some spiritual benefit in it.


Jim

Can I throw a cross on the back of some swami and whip him with a cat of nine tails? ^_^

That ought to be good exercise. :D
 
Upvote 0

JoabAnias

Steward of proportionality- I Cor 13:1, 1 Tim 3:15
Supporter
Nov 26, 2007
21,200
3,283
✟82,874.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
When some of us are smart enough to know the difference between a culturally originated method of exercise and actually believing in the spirituality of the method. If someone else is. That's their problem.

The only glitch I find with that line of reasoning, which otherwise I completely agree with, is that there is a contradiction with calling what is no longer really yoga, to still be yoga which, for those who do not see the differences, completely blurs the lines of what is what. You see, not everyone who does yoga style stretches ONLY, realizes its not real yoga and as a result this attitudinally fosters indifferences to forms various of synchronism rather than of extracting and holding to the good through prudence, discernment and other gifts of the Spirit. Call me a purist if you wish, I wouldn't mind, but I really feel that those who do understand the differences of what is good or not, have a responsibility to clarify for those who don't, simply to prevent confusion, rather than just assume everyone understands, or lets the potential errors of their unwitting experimentation with yet to be encountered pagan aspects of an eastern religion be "their problem" as you say. I realize the opportunities to raise an amicable discussion on the subject may be rare, just the same, I feel we should be willing for love of neighbor. Most of us who take such a position have learned from experience.
 
Upvote 0

JimR-OCDS

God Cannot Be Grasped, Except Through Love
Oct 28, 2008
18,341
3,284
The Kingdom of Heaven
Visit site
✟185,132.00
Country
United States
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
The only glitch I find with that line of reasoning, which otherwise I completely agree with, is that there is a contradiction with calling what is no longer really yoga, to still be yoga which, for those who do not see the differences, completely blurs the lines of what is what. You see, not everyone who does yoga style stretches ONLY, realizes its not real yoga and as a result this attitudinally fosters indifferences to forms various of synchronism rather than of extracting and holding to the good through prudence, discernment and other gifts of the Spirit. Call me a purist if you wish, I wouldn't mind, but I really feel that those who do understand the differences of what is good or not, have a responsibility to clarify for those who don't, simply to prevent confusion, rather than just assume everyone understands, or lets the potential errors of their unwitting experimentation with yet to be encountered pagan aspects of an eastern religion be "their problem" as you say. I realize the opportunities to raise an amicable discussion on the subject may be rare, just the same, I feel we should be willing for love of neighbor. Most of us who take such a position have learned from experience.

There are different styles of Yoga, and the Yoga exercise done by most Americans, is real Yoga.

Most can seperate the phyisical exercise from the spiritual elements in this style.

There are other styles which you can not.

Either way, all are real Yoga.

The physical benefits of Yoga can not be denied.

Jim
 
Upvote 0

JoabAnias

Steward of proportionality- I Cor 13:1, 1 Tim 3:15
Supporter
Nov 26, 2007
21,200
3,283
✟82,874.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
There are different styles of Yoga, and the Yoga exercise done by most Americans, is real Yoga.

I consider that a revisionist opinion and think it takes little more intelligence than looking on wiki to see that if the Eastern Religious praxis is excluded then its no more fully yoga than the Mass without the Eucharist is and efficacious and valid Mass.

Most can separate the physical exercise from the spiritual elements in this style.
My impression is thats probably accurate. In fact, I doubt very many people are even exposed to the pagan aspects of yoga in general UNLESS they are specifically pursuing the Eastern Religion to begin with. There are however, warnings from the Vatican that are not negligible. ;)

Either way, all are real Yoga.
Sure, in a synchronistic sort of way. I believe that you have a sort of blockage over what that is, and adversely, I am probably a bit to scrupulous about it so we can't see eye to eye on that, but I'm ok with that if you are and won't hold it agianst you. ;)

The physical benefits of Yoga can not be denied.
There is no physical benefit to pagan worship. To do so is to commit permanent death of both body and soul according to the real one true God.

If you mean the exercises, well, we all really know thats not REAL yoga and really, its irresponsible to try and convince of anything with warnings attached by the Vatican.

Letter to the Bishops of the Catholic Church on some aspects of ...

"10. Both of these forms of error continue to be a temptation for man the sinner. They incite him to try and overcome the distance separating creature from Creator, as though there ought not to be such a distance; to consider the way of Christ on earth, by which he wishes to lead us to the Father, as something now surpassed; to bring down to the level of natural psychology what has been regarded as pure grace, considering it instead as "superior knowledge" or as "experience."​

Such erroneous forms, having reappeared in history from time to time on the fringes of the Church's prayer, seem once more to impress many Christians, appealing to them as a kind of remedy, be it psychological or spiritual, or as a quick way of finding God."


Not the physical exercises mind you, but the spirituality of paganism. There is no need to divorce the two and call it what it was. I doubt Buddhists would appreciate that much and would be the first ones to tell us that yoga exercise without an intention of their religion is not the fullness of their faith praxis.

Bottom line is, any Christian who thinks any form of "yoga" is drawing them toward a closer union with God is fooling themselves.

Jim,

This is where the Abbot is deceived and why his diciples mistakenly think yoga is benign in any form:

"12. With the present diffusion of eastern methods of meditation in the Christian world and in ecclesial communities, we find ourselves faced with a pointed renewal of an attempt, which is not free from dangers and errors, to fuse Christian meditation with that which is non-Christian."


Study that document above and take to heart all the ways it contradicts what Keating has created by false ecumenism. Keating may be handling such ecumenism and remaining faithful to mother Church by virtue of his vocation, but I assure you, its not for everyone or a viable option for the unwitting laity or from what I have seen, from the apparent blindness to synchronism and religious indifference, as encouraged through various aspects of the Pentecostalisation of Catholics, even among 3rd orders. I hope that doesn't offend as I have no intention to. Its simply my honest observation and the line I feel the Church draws against religious indifference.

Peace.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

SonOfTheWest

Britpack
Sep 26, 2010
1,765
66
United Kingdom
✟9,861.00
Faith
Agnostic
Marital Status
Private
Politics
UK-Labour
I consider that a revisionist opinion and think it takes little more intelligence than looking on wiki to see that if the Eastern Religious praxis is excluded then its no more fully yoga than the Mass without the Eucharist is and efficacious and valid Mass.


My impression is thats probably accurate. In fact, I doubt very many people are even exposed to the pagan aspects of yoga in general UNLESS they are specifically pursuing the Eastern Religion to begin with. There are however, warnings from the Vatican that are not negligible. ;)


Sure, in a synchronistic sort of way. I believe that you have a sort of blockage over what that is, and adversely, I am probably a bit to scrupulous about it so we can't see eye to eye on that, but I'm ok with that if you are and won't hold it agianst you. ;)


There is no physical benefit to pagan worship. To do so is to commit permanent death of both body and soul according to the real one true God.

If you mean the exercises, well, we all really know thats not REAL yoga and really, its irresponsible to try and convince of anything with warnings attached by the Vatican.

Letter to the Bishops of the Catholic Church on some aspects of ...

"10. Both of these forms of error continue to be a temptation for man the sinner. They incite him to try and overcome the distance separating creature from Creator, as though there ought not to be such a distance; to consider the way of Christ on earth, by which he wishes to lead us to the Father, as something now surpassed; to bring down to the level of natural psychology what has been regarded as pure grace, considering it instead as "superior knowledge" or as "experience."​

Such erroneous forms, having reappeared in history from time to time on the fringes of the Church's prayer, seem once more to impress many Christians, appealing to them as a kind of remedy, be it psychological or spiritual, or as a quick way of finding God."


Not the physical exercises mind you, but the spirituality of paganism. There is no need to divorce the two and call it what it was. I doubt Buddhists would appreciate that much and would be the first ones to tell us that yoga exercise without an intention of their religion is not the fullness of their faith praxis.

Bottom line is, any Christian who thinks any form of "yoga" is drawing them toward a closer union with God is fooling themselves.

Jim,

This is where the Abbot is deceived and why his diciples mistakenly think yoga is benign in any form:

"12. With the present diffusion of eastern methods of meditation in the Christian world and in ecclesial communities, we find ourselves faced with a pointed renewal of an attempt, which is not free from dangers and errors, to fuse Christian meditation with that which is non-Christian."


Study that document above and take to heart all the ways it contradicts what Keating has created by false ecumenism. Keating may be handling such ecumenism and remaining faithful to mother Church by virtue of his vocation, but I assure you, its not for everyone or a viable option for the unwitting laity or from what I have seen, from the apparent blindness to synchronism and religious indifference, as encouraged through various aspects of the Pentecostalisation of Catholics, even among 3rd orders. I hope that doesn't offend as I have no intention to. Its simply my honest observation and the line I feel the Church draws against religious indifference.

Peace.

You're still using the word "pagan" poorly/inaccurately.
 
Upvote 0

ChristoEtEcclesiae

Well-Known Member
Nov 21, 2010
1,172
82
✟1,727.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Constitution
There are different styles of Yoga, and the Yoga exercise done by most Americans, is real Yoga.

Most can seperate the phyisical exercise from the spiritual elements in this style.

There are other styles which you can not.

Either way, all are real Yoga.

The physical benefits of Yoga can not be denied.

Jim

Still up to no good, I see. Even if you separate the pseudo-spiritual aspect of Yoga you're still engaging in a near occasion of sin by practicing it even if you endeavor to keep out the original spirituality. Remember that thing about not having other gods? It applies to spiritual practices too.

Doing Yoga as part of a Rosary or Stations of the Cross is offensive to God, period. You don't turn the Passion of our Lord and Savior into an exercise activity. It's mockery and you should know better.

Besides, doing Yoga without any of the attendant spiritual elements and calling it exercise is like doing the Salah without reciting the prayers and calling it exercise. Either way it still mocks God.
 
Upvote 0

JimR-OCDS

God Cannot Be Grasped, Except Through Love
Oct 28, 2008
18,341
3,284
The Kingdom of Heaven
Visit site
✟185,132.00
Country
United States
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
JoabAnias,
included in the link you provided which you have ignored consistantly since I've known you through this forum;


[QUOTE]
16. The majority of the great religions which have sought union with God in prayer have also pointed out ways to achieve it. Just as "the Catholic Church rejects nothing of what is true and holy in these religions," neither should these ways be rejected out of hand simply because they are not Christian. On the contrary, one can take from them what is useful so long as the Christian conception of prayer, its logic and requirements are never obscured.
[/QUOTE]

Bold is my emphasis.

Jim
 
Upvote 0

JimR-OCDS

God Cannot Be Grasped, Except Through Love
Oct 28, 2008
18,341
3,284
The Kingdom of Heaven
Visit site
✟185,132.00
Country
United States
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
ChristoEtEcclesiae

Still up to no good, I see.

Yeah, as you see it, which of course isn't reality.

Even if you separate the pseudo-spiritual aspect of Yoga you're still engaging in a near occasion of sin by practicing it even if you endeavor to keep out the original spirituality. Remember that thing about not having other gods? It applies to spiritual practices too.

Christians doing Yoga exercise are in no way acknowledging "other gods."


Doing Yoga as part of a Rosary or Stations of the Cross is offensive to God, period.

Prove that God is offended by people praying while doing exercise?


Just because its called Yoga, doesn't make it different than other forms of exercise while praying.

You don't turn the Passion of our Lord and Savior into an exercise activity. It's mockery and you should know better.

I'l let slide your ignorance of the subject.


Besides, doing Yoga without any of the attendant spiritual elements and calling it exercise is like doing the Salah without reciting the prayers and calling it exercise. Either way it still mocks God.


Pulease.

God is concerned about what comes from the heart, not the physical position or method of prayer that is used.

If I pray the Rosary during my lunchtime walk, am I being disrespectful to God because some one says that the Rosary should be said while kneeling?

Pray without ceasing said St. Paul.

If I pray while doing exercise, and Yoga Stations is nothing but prayer during exercise, how I must say in reading about it further, the participants links the suffering of holding a posture with the suffering of Christ, has a contemplative element that just reciting the prayers of the station, don't provide.

Jim
 
Upvote 0

ChristoEtEcclesiae

Well-Known Member
Nov 21, 2010
1,172
82
✟1,727.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Constitution
ChristoEtEcclesiae



Yeah, as you see it, which of course isn't reality.



Christians doing Yoga exercise are in no way acknowledging "other gods."




Prove that God is offended by people praying while doing exercise?


Just because its called Yoga, doesn't make it different than other forms of exercise while praying.



I'l let slide your ignorance of the subject.





Pulease.

God is concerned about what comes from the heart, not the physical position or method of prayer that is used.

If I pray the Rosary during my lunchtime walk, am I being disrespectful to God because some one says that the Rosary should be said while kneeling?

Pray without ceasing said St. Paul.

If I pray while doing exercise, and Yoga Stations is nothing but prayer during exercise, how I must say in reading about it further, the participants links the suffering of holding a posture with the suffering of Christ, has a contemplative element that just reciting the prayers of the station, don't provide.

Jim

Tell me: is walking an activity derived from another religion's practice? No? Then it is a poor comparison.

If you look at the image supplied by Father Z, it's described as a "contemporary way of experiencing the Stations physically and spiritually." Tell me this also: what need do Catholics have to enhance traditional Catholic spiritual practices like the Stations of the Cross with a New Age pseudo-spiritual practice derived from some other belief? Why aren't CATHOLIC spiritual practices good enough?

It astounds me how every time I tried to introduce OBOB to some Catholic practice, there was always at least one person saying "well does the Church approve it?" or "no one tells me how to pray" even if the thing was described at length by a saint or JESUS HIMSELF appeared to the saint and told them about it, and yet there are "Catholics" defending Yoga Stations and Yoga Rosaries.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Blind As A Bat

Well-Known Member
Mar 2, 2011
1,302
436
There's something cold and blank, behind her smile
✟3,505.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Single
Politics
UK-Labour
Fly-by hit. Yoga is part of Hinduism, it is one of their gods (and their own) form of meditation. This is like taking and reciting from the koran.

Here you go, lord of Hinduism doing yoga. Big picture too so even if you have dodgy eyes you can see it.

Shiva_Bangalore_.jpg
 
Upvote 0

Vasallus

Well-Known Member
Feb 22, 2011
1,467
106
✟2,175.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Private
Politics
US-Others
If anyone believes yoga is harmless and fine. You need to be booted out of the church with steel toed caps and let the door hit your already red <ahem> on the way out.

Really? So everyone has to agree with you, or they're not allowed to be Catholic....wow, you've got quite an opinion of yourself.
 
Upvote 0

Blind As A Bat

Well-Known Member
Mar 2, 2011
1,302
436
There's something cold and blank, behind her smile
✟3,505.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Single
Politics
UK-Labour
That is called twisting statements to suit your need. I'll answer simply by doing the same to you.

But hey, if you want people worshipping "allah" on mats and saying Jesus didn't die in church too, then hey, that's your business, just don't expect to be called "Catholic" for long.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

JimR-OCDS

God Cannot Be Grasped, Except Through Love
Oct 28, 2008
18,341
3,284
The Kingdom of Heaven
Visit site
✟185,132.00
Country
United States
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
ChristoEtEcclesiae

Tell me: is walking an activity derived from another religion's practice?

Walking is part of being a homosapien. But also, the Yoga poses are part of it to.

Anyone who has done Yoga exercises and observes a toddler, will see the toddler do those same poses. We could still do them if we had remained physically conditioned, but because we give up proper physical conditioning, we are unable to. However, as we practice Yoga, we're able to return to them, and the physical benefits are undeniable.


If you look at the image supplied by Father Z, it's described as a "contemporary way of experiencing the Stations physically and spiritually."

Sorry, but Fr Z is a neo-conservative with a narrow view of the Church and contemplative spirituality.

There is nothing edifying in anything I've seen him write.


Tell me this also: what need do Catholics have to enhance traditional Catholic spiritual practices like the Stations of the Cross with a New Age pseudo-spiritual practice derived from some other belief? Why aren't CATHOLIC spiritual practices good enough?

Who said tradition Catholic Spiritual practices are replaced with Yoga exercise?

In fact, I stated earlier in this thread, that the Yoga Stations of the Cross, are physical exercises in which a person may add prayer to them, but this should never replace regular times for prayer.

It astounds me how every time I tried to introduce OBOB to some Catholic practice, there was always at least one person saying "well does the Church approve it?" or "no one tells me how to pray" even if the thing was described at length by a saint or JESUS HIMSELF appeared to the saint and told them about it, and yet there are "Catholics" defending Yoga Stations and Yoga Rosaries.

Prayer is good no matter where or when it is offered.

Just because there are Catholics who don't follow your style of Catholicism, doesn't make them wrong.

In fact, you better get use to a different style of Catholicism from the old European style for the fastest growing populations of Catholics is in the East and Africa.

They will bring their cultures into Catholicism and I hope you won't reject them as you reject others.

Jim
 
Upvote 0

ChristoEtEcclesiae

Well-Known Member
Nov 21, 2010
1,172
82
✟1,727.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Constitution
ChristoEtEcclesiae



Walking is part of being a homosapien. But also, the Yoga poses are part of it to.

Anyone who has done Yoga exercises and observes a toddler, will see the toddler do those same poses. We could still do them if we had remained physically conditioned, but because we give up proper physical conditioning, we are unable to. However, as we practice Yoga, we're able to return to them, and the physical benefits are undeniable.




Sorry, but Fr Z is a neo-conservative with a narrow view of the Church and contemplative spirituality.

There is nothing edifying in anything I've seen him write.




Who said tradition Catholic Spiritual practices are replaced with Yoga exercise?

In fact, I stated earlier in this thread, that the Yoga Stations of the Cross, are physical exercises in which a person may add prayer to them, but this should never replace regular times for prayer.



Prayer is good no matter where or when it is offered.

Just because there are Catholics who don't follow your style of Catholicism, doesn't make them wrong.

In fact, you better get use to a different style of Catholicism from the old European style for the fastest growing populations of Catholics is in the East and Africa.

They will bring their cultures into Catholicism and I hope you won't reject them as you reject others.

Jim

We already have African archbishops saying that African Catholics much prefer the TLM and the solemn worship of God and maintaining the Faith of Our Fathers--for which I might add, countless souls were tortured and martyred by Protestants and other heretics--over the New Age crap that your typical Hippie McMoron tries to proclaim. Excuse Father Z and myself and every other sad sap who gives a care and wants to continue worshipping GOD and don't want to see THE MOST HOLY SACRIFICE OF THE MASS turn into A CIRCUS AND A HIPPIE FREAK SHOW and the FAITH OF OUR FATHERS turn into a suggestion.

I'll say it again. Yoga is a near occasion of sin at best, Stations of the Cross or no. You don't go to Stations of the Cross to see clowns or do exercise--even if it's as spiritually harmless as Richard Simmons' stuff. You go to Stations of the Cross to meditate on and reflect upon the Passion of our Lord Jesus Christ. You know, the guy who BECAME MAN SO THAT HE COULD TEACH US HOW TO STOP SINNING AND LOVE EACH OTHER AND TO DIE FOR OUR SINS. Doing exercises--especially those from another, completely separate spiritual belief--is disrespectful. Some guy died for YOU, DON'T YOU CARE?
 
  • Like
Reactions: CruciFixed
Upvote 0

Vasallus

Well-Known Member
Feb 22, 2011
1,467
106
✟2,175.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Private
Politics
US-Others
That is called twisting statements to suit your need. I'll answer simply by doing the same to you.

But hey, if you want people worshipping "allah" on mats and saying Jesus didn't die in church too, then hey, that's your business, just don't expect to be called "Catholic" for long.
You don't get to make that decision.
 
Upvote 0

JoabAnias

Steward of proportionality- I Cor 13:1, 1 Tim 3:15
Supporter
Nov 26, 2007
21,200
3,283
✟82,874.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
JoabAnias,
included in the link you provided which you have ignored consistently since I've known you through this forum;


[QUOTE]
16. The majority of the great religions which have sought union with God in prayer have also pointed out ways to achieve it. Just as "the Catholic Church rejects nothing of what is true and holy in these religions," neither should these ways be rejected out of hand simply because they are not Christian. On the contrary, one can take from them what is useful so long as the Christian conception of prayer, its logic and requirements are never obscured.

Bold is my emphasis.



You have never seen me reject the good in the exercises alone so its unrealistic to allude that is the case. I only speak to the paganism that is intertwined in the fullness of the praxis of yoga.

I know that one can separate out only the "GOOD" from most anything and I do the same. Vatican II taught me this years and years ago. My warnings about yoga have NEVER been about the "GOOD" so please re-read your bolding above.

I in following the Church reject nothing out of hand.

The Church simply does not ignore the warnings that you do and have here ever since I have known you and consistently, and in my opinion, irresponsibly encourage others to do as well, as if there is no aspect of yoga to be leery of, when the rest of the document from the Vatican you quote, and fail to cite in context, clearly states there is.

Here is the link to the WHOLE document once again that it seems you would prefer to avoid:

Letter to the Bishops of the Catholic Church on some aspects of ...

Try to interpret the sentence you bolded above in the context of the specific warnings of Eastern forms of prayer and then take them to heart. I know Keating has you denying this Vatican document, but he is wrong to cause you to do so.

There are more warnings than what follows, but I will include only this one more, as other posts have others, which are more than sufficient to debunk your point as nothing more than misguided synchretism, in a false spirit of ecumenism, by misinterpreting the Churches Vat II teaching to find all that is good and hold to it, because it assumes the evil of pagan Hinduism is good when that is not rationally possible.

It is plainly idolotry to worship false Gods as is common belief among ALL walks of Christian praxis.

"12. With the present diffusion of eastern methods of meditation in the Christian world and in ecclesial communities, we find ourselves faced with a pointed renewal of an attempt, which is not free from dangers and errors, to fuse Christian meditation with that which is non-Christian. Proposals in this direction are numerous and radical to a greater or lesser extent. Some use eastern methods solely as a psycho-physical preparation for a truly Christian contemplation; others go further and, using different techniques, try to generate spiritual experiences similar to those described in the writings of certain Catholic mystics.13 Still others do not hesitate to place that absolute without image or concepts, which is proper to Buddhist theory,14 on the same level as the majesty of God revealed in Christ, which towers above finite reality. To this end, they make use of a "negative theology," which transcends every affirmation seeking to express what God is and denies that the things of this world can offer traces of the infinity of God. Thus they propose abandoning not only meditation on the salvific works accomplished in history by the God of the Old and New Covenant, but also the very idea of the One and Triune God, who is Love, in favor of an immersion "in the indeterminate abyss of the divinity."15 These and similar proposals to harmonize Christian meditation with eastern techniques need to have their contents and methods ever subjected to a thorough-going examination so as to avoid the danger of falling into syncretism."​

Isaiah 5:20
Woe to those who call evil good, and good evil; Who substitute darkness for light and light for darkness; Who substitute bitter for sweet and sweet for bitter!

Jim, worshiping the God of yoga in Hinduism is darkness.​

Taking the benign exercises out of it is not. However, that is not "real" yoga. Its just the exercises.​

That is the centristic point of view from the Church and I am sticking to it.​
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums