Yo, why do Catholics call the pope "holy father" when...?

[JesusIsTheSonOfGod]

Did you read anything else? If you did I think you would not have found reason to post Scripture that has nothing to do with what the op was inferring unless you agree with the op. You & the op seem one of the same. I want to know how you think the Scriptures you posted from Matthew & Revelation apply to Catholics exactly.

Yes it does. Read my comment again: Because the OP was referring to Matthew 23 in her post. So I thought it would be a good idea to post the whole chapter for everyone to read so maybe they will see clearly about the topic that is being addressed by the OP.

Bye. I'm not here to argue with you but to share verses with everyone that came straight from the bible.

 

[Michie]

Originally Posted by Michie
This is the question I do not get and the stuff that you was saying about Protestants and etc, Protestants is not mentioned in the bible, that's why I said it had nothing to do with the word of God.

That's why I asked you to study up. Find out how Scripture was formed. Look up RCC's views in Scripture & tradition. Pick up a CCC instead of believing the propaganda. Read Scripture in context with the time it was written in mind. It's an information highway out there but get the info from the source, the RCC. I know Scripture & I one believed as you do until I decided to prayerfully seek out the truth of the RCC. We are your brothers & sisters in Christ. There is no need to attack the Body of Christ. You are only hurting yourself. So don't expect a Sola Scriptura debate here. We have history & tradition behind us as well.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

JesusIsTheSonOfGod;

And do not call anyone on earth ‘father,’ for you have one Father, and he is in heaven. Nor are you to be called ‘teacher,’ for you have one

And so Jesus did not call Joseph his father?

You don't refer to your biological parent as your father?

Jesus isn't talking about the title, "father," here, but rather, who we look to as the source of our life and salvation, i.e. God our Father.


Jim

 

[tadoflamb]

I advise all to read chapter Matthew 23 which addresses the Seven Woes.


Seven Woes
Matthew 23:1-39 Then Jesus said to the crowds and to his disciples: “The teachers of the law and the Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat. So you must obey them and do everything they tell you.

Let's stop there.

What happened to the seat?

 

[WarriorAngel]

Hey bros and sis, It says in the Scriptures that you should call no man on this Earth - Father.

Are you saying you do not call the male of your parents - father?

1st of all- this is taken out of context and literal.
2nd - in Greek it differs to what we think it is in English.

But overall, Paul says 'I beget you in the Lord Jesus Christ...' Which means - i father you.
And Paul even refers himself as a father in Epistles.

Basically - don't put man in the place that you would the Father in heaven. Literally is what He meant.

Because He also says call no man Teacher, Master - etc. Yet - we do. Because how ppl think it means is not what it means.
These terms are all fine - it's a matter of understanding scriptures per the context - which is why so many newer churches just dont get it Coming in 1500 - 2000 years later - trying to figure it out - they wont comprehend it - especially in conclusion from English.

I do not understand this at all. I am not here to entice, just to have a discussion. Personally, I think it's deceiving for a man to be called "holy father" and accept praise and worship. Christ came into the world to abolish all these rules and traditions when he rebuked the Pharisees for their man-made laws. I know God works in EVERY religion to let people know that Christ is the way, the truth, the light but I do not believe it is right for a man to be called "holy father". So I would just like to have discussion about this and let people know that what they follow - is nowhere to be found in the Scriptures, it is man-made tradition. No man is in place of Christ - no man but I always remember in my heart to love and to show compassion! Wahooo!! Praise the one, true and Only Father - God and his Only Son Jesus Christ forever and ever. Amen!

You would literally have to be open to understanding the early Church - 1st of all. Secondly you would have to read the history and writings to know - how Peter stands in for Christ.

The short of it - consider the council in the Acts when Peter says 'It is by my mouth that the Gentiles shall hear...'

If you know the surrounding environment - Peter in fact didnt teach [yet] the Gentiles. But they would hear from him - via Paul.
IE - he was chief Indian - who was literally holding the keys Jesus handed him - to stand in as Steward - see Isaiah 22.
When the King of the kingdom is absent the steward as such has all the powers of the king until he returns.
So a steward literally fills the shoes....and has all possession of decisions.

We call him holy - for the chair he sits in - which represents - Christ - as a steward in the place of Peter.
He is called father - because all shepherds are our fathers - through our Lord Jesus Christ.

If this isnt simplified enough let me know.

Peace.

 

[JesusIsTheSonOfGod]

JesusIsTheSonOfGod;

And so Jesus did not call Joseph his father?

Joseph Isn't even Jesus biological Son according to verses Matthew 1:18-25 and Luke 1:26-38, so I don't know where you getting this information from. The scriptures says that Jesus is the begotten Son of God according to verse Acts 13:32-35 and John 3:16-18. Mary conceived (her Son Jesus) through the power of the Holy Spirit without human intervention.

You don't refer to your biological parent as your father?

No, I do not call my own dad "Father," I call him daddy.

If Jesus says not to call any Master on earth "Father" and "Rabbi," than we shouldn't call them "Father and Rabbi." That's unless they are greater among the people which their not according to Matthew 23:11-12, which says:

Matthew 23:11-12 "The greatest among you will be your servant (God's chosen ones who fear him and obey him). For whoever exalts himself will be humbled, and whoever humbles himself will be exalted."

HERE ARE OTHER CROSS REFERENCE VERSES TO MATTHEW 23:11-12:

The Greatest in the Kingdom of Heaven
Matthew 18:1-9
At that time the disciples came to Jesus and asked, “Who is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven?”

He called a little child and had him stand among them. And he said: “I tell you the truth, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven. Therefore, whoever humbles himself like this child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven.

“And whoever welcomes a little child like this in my name welcomes me. But if anyone causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to have a large millstone hung around his neck and to be drowned in the depths of the sea.

“Woe to the world because of the things that cause people to sin! Such things must come, but woe to the man through whom they come! If your hand or your foot causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life maimed or crippled than to have two hands or two feet and be thrown into eternal fire. And if your eye causes you to sin, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into the fire of hell.

The Fulfillment of the Law
Matthew 5:17-20
“Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven.
____________________________________________________________________________________

SOURCE: FROM THE HOLY BIBLE.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

JesusIsTheSonOfGod

Joseph Isn't even Jesus biological Son according to verses Matthew 1:18-25 and Luke 1:26-38, so I don't know where you getting this information from. The scriptures says that Jesus is the begotten Son of God according to verse Acts 13:32-35 and John 3:16-18. Mary conceived (her Son Jesus) through the power of the Holy Spirit without human intervention.

You're tap dancing around the issue. Was Joseph the acting father of Jesus or not?

Did Jesus call Joseph father?

And do you yourself refer to your biological parent as "father?"

Again, Jesus was not talking about "titles," by about who we are to look to for all of our needs as human beings, and that is God the Father.

He did not say we can not call a biological parent "father."

No, I do not call my own dad "Father," I call him daddy.

Come on, you mean to tell me that if some one were to ask, who that man is, you would not answer, " he's my father?"

If Jesus says not to call any Master on earth "Father" and "Rabbi," than we shouldn't call them "Father and Rabbi." That's unless they are greater among the people which their not according to Matthew 23:11-12, which says:

And here Jesus is talking to the Apostles distinctly in that they're not to place themselves over one another, but to treat each one as equal.

This is how the Catholic Bible footnote explains it;

* [23:8–12] These verses, warning against the use of various titles, are addressed to the disciples alone. While only the title ‘Rabbi’ has been said to be used in addressing the scribes and Pharisees (Mt 23:7), the implication is that Father and ‘Master’ also were. The prohibition of these titles to the disciples suggests that their use was present in Matthew’s church. The Matthean Jesus forbids not only the titles but the spirit of superiority and pride that is shown by their acceptance. Whoever exalts…will be exalted: cf. Lk 14:11.

Jesus is warning the Apostles about pride, not titles. The term Rabbi, is also referenced in the warnings Jesus gives in Mark, 12:38-39


Jim

 

[JimR-OCDS]

Here's a better explanation from Catholic Answers, than I can provide;

Full Question

Often non-Catholics ask me, Why do Catholics call their priests "father"? They call our attention to Matthew 23:9, "You must call no one on earth your father." How should I answer?

Answer

A Catholic might respond, "How do you refer to your mother's husband? What do you call him?" If a Catholic is wrong in calling his priest "father," then everyone who refers to his own natural father as "father" is also in the wrong. Both usages would be prohibited by a literal interpretation of Jesus' words.


Jesus came not to abolish but to fulfill the Law of the Old Covenant (Mt 5:17). If in Matthew 23:9 he literally forbids us even to acknowledge our natural fathers as our fathers, how can we keep the fourth commandment ("honor your father and your mother")? Taken literally, Jesus' words in Matthew 23:9 contradict his claim in Matthew 5:17, but we know that the Son of God never contradicts himself.


Look again at the passage in which Jesus says we must call no one "father." In contrast to the attitudes of the Pharisees and others, Jesus is specifying the qualities Christian leaders must exhibit (Mt 23:1-12). The Pharisees.aspired to being called "rabbi" (or "master" or "teacher"), leaders of schools of thought. Among the schools headed by teachers called "rabbi" there were divergences of belief, some of them in actual contradiction. A similar situation prevailed with regard to the term "father" (in Aramaic, abba, a title of honor). The title was given to well-known Jewish religious authorities of the past. As with "rabbi," so with "father." The term designated the progenitor of a particular, even contradictory, interpretation of the Jewish faith.


Why did Jesus declare that no Christian leader is to be called "rabbi" or "father"? He was telling us that no leader may set up his own interpretation of the Catholic faith and seek followers for his opinions. The role of leaders in Christ's Church is faithfully to hand on Christ's teaching received through the apostles (Mt 28:19). The words of the apostle Paul epitomize the essential attitude of the Christian teacher: "This is what I received from the Lord and in turn passed on to you" (1 Cor 11:23). Paul condemns in the church at Corinth "these slogans you have, like 'I am for Paul,' 'I am for Apollos,' 'I am for Cephas' (1 Cor 1:12).
The history of Protestantism is essentially the story of this very process--the unending proliferation of sectarian groups, saying "I am for Martin Luther" or "I am for John Calvin" or "I am for John Wesley." The World Christian Encyclopedia (David B. Barrett, ed.; Oxford, 1982) reported that in 1980 there were 20,780 distinguishable Christian denominations in the world. Moreover, at the time the encyclopedia was published, an average of 270 new denominations were springing up each year--more than five every week. If that rate has continued, then there are over 25,000 denominations today. Every single one of these competing, contradicting denominations was formed by some person who said, in effect, "Call me 'Master,' call me 'Teacher'; I will tell you what the Christian truth is!"


Jesus foresaw this problem and provided the means for avoiding it. In the passage under discussion, he tells us, "you have only one teacher, the Christ." And how are we to be taught by our one Teacher? By the means he provided. He founded the Church on the apostles and their successors, with a special role for Peter, the Rock, the earthly head of the Church. A Catholic knows that when the Church Christ founded speaks solemnly, Christ himself is speaking through her to each member.


Every follower of Christ wants to know the truth, for "the truth [and only the truth] will make you free" (Jn 8:22). For acquiring that truth in its fullness, the Catholic Church established by Jesus Christ offers the only alternative to the chaos of ever-expanding denominationalism.
Incidentally, both Old and New Testaments associate priesthood with fatherhood (cf. Jgs 17:10, 18:19, and 1 Cor 4:15), but in this case, Jesus' command is not violated. Being a simple priest is in no way turning yourself into a guru and founding your own school of thought.


How can we respond to the "call no man father" question? | Catholic Answers

 

[JesusIsTheSonOfGod]

JesusIsTheSonOfGod



You're tap dancing around the issue. Was Joseph the acting father of Jesus or not?

Did Jesus call Joseph father?

And do you yourself refer to your biological parent as "father?"

Again, Jesus was not talking about "titles," by about who we are to look to for all of our needs as human beings, and that is God the Father.

He did not say we can not call a biological parent "father."



Come on, you mean to tell me that if some one were to ask, who that man is, you would not answer, " he's my father?"





And here Jesus is talking to the Apostles distinctly in that they're not to place themselves over one another, but to treat each one as equal.

This is how the Catholic Bible footnote explains it;



Jesus is warning the Apostles about pride, not titles. The term Rabbi, is also referenced in the warnings Jesus gives in Mark, 12:38-39


Jim

I am not going to read all of that because I can see you are trying to quarrel about words since I see you are repeating yourself all over again. I already answered your question, and the answer is no because the bible never said that Jesus called Joseph "Father," he only called God his "heavenly Father." If you can find a verse that said that Jesus called Joseph "Father," than I will say yes he did, and it has to come straight from his own mouth/words through the scriptures, not from rumors or other controversial teachings. It has to come straight from the bible (a.k.a. the word of God).

Also I already answered your question about my dad. I said I call him daddy. I don't call him Father.

Thanks and good bye.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Hey bros and sis, It says in the Scriptures that you should call no man on this Earth - Father. I do not understand this at all. I am not here to entice, just to have a discussion. Personally, I think it's deceiving for a man to be called "holy father" and accept praise and worship. Christ came into the world to abolish all these rules and traditions when he rebuked the Pharisees for their man-made laws. I know God works in EVERY religion to let people know that Christ is the way, the truth, the light but I do not believe it is right for a man to be called "holy father". So I would just like to have discussion about this and let people know that what they follow - is nowhere to be found in the Scriptures, it is man-made tradition. No man is in place of Christ - no man but I always remember in my heart to love and to show compassion! Wahooo!! Praise the one, true and Only Father - God and his Only Son Jesus Christ forever and ever. Amen!

It's a bit like when USA folk call Barack Obama "Mr. President" and when Protestant folk call their paid preacher "Pastor" and when Jewish folk call their synagogue leader "Rabi". Besides, which, do you call your Dad your "Father" and if you do how exactly do you reconcile that with the way you are reading the passage to which you refer?

 

[Elysium]

lol biblical literalism
what a sad sad thing
completely cuts one off from history and makes every individual his/her own little pope and arbiter of truth

 

[RomanRite]

I'm assuming you have a male parent. If we are to call no man on earth our father, what do you call your male parent? Mother?

Jesus in this passage is speaking hyperbolically---just as He was when He said if your right eye causes you to sin, gouge it out and throw it away. He was using inflated language to make a didactic point, and that point is, while you can show respect and reverence for men, make sure you pay reverence and respect to God first.

Besides which, if we are to call no man on earth "father", then why does Paul say "I became your father through the Gospel" in 1 Corinthians 4:15? He says in Philemon 10 that he became Philemon's father. In 1 Timothy 1:2 and Titus 1:4, he calls them his "children" in the Faith. If Paul has "children", then he must be a "father", because he certainly isn't a "mother", now, is he?

HEsTiLLALiVe: I would caution you about what you post in the Catholic forum. The rules clearly state that you can discuss, but you cannot debate, and you certainly cannot make statements such as you did in your first sentence of the post above. Be careful, or you'll end up getting in trouble with the mods for breaking the rules.

This! To my protestant brethren, I use to believe this too, but Jesus means don't call people father as FATHER GOD.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

I am not going to read all of that because I can see you are trying to quarrel about words since I see you are repeating yourself all over again. I already answered your question, and the answer is no because the bible never said that Jesus called Joseph "Father," he only called God his "heavenly Father." If you can find a verse that said that Jesus called Joseph "Father," than I will say yes he did, and it has to come straight from his own mouth/words through the scriptures, not from rumors or other controversial teachings. It has to come straight from the bible (a.k.a. the word of God).

Also I already answered your question about my dad. I said I call him daddy. I don't call him Father.

Thanks and good bye.

You can defend your accusation because you've come to realize you misinterpreted Scripture.

However, this is what we Catholics believe and the Church has the history and tradition to understand Scripture properly, because the Church is the one who established the New Testament Canon.

But go ahead and stick with your English translation based on contemporary interpretation given to you by protestant fundamentalists.

Remember, we didn't go to your forum to debate with you, you came to ours.

Jim

 

[Chany]

I am not going to read all of that because I can see you are trying to quarrel about words since I see you are repeating yourself all over again. I already answered your question, and the answer is no because the bible never said that Jesus called Joseph "Father," he only called God his "heavenly Father." If you can find a verse that said that Jesus called Joseph "Father," than I will say yes he did, and it has to come straight from his own mouth/words through the scriptures, not from rumors or other controversial teachings. It has to come straight from the bible (a.k.a. the word of God).

Also I already answered your question about my dad. I said I call him daddy. I don't call him Father.

Thanks and good bye.

You do realize Jesus didn't speak in English and that "Daddy" and "Father" mean the same thing in English?

 

[JesusIsTheSonOfGod]

You can defend your accusation because you've come to realize you misinterpreted Scripture.

However, this is what we Catholics believe and the Church has the history and tradition to understand Scripture properly, because the Church is the one who established the New Testament Canon.

But go ahead and stick with your English translation based on contemporary interpretation given to you by protestant fundamentalists.

Remember, we didn't go to your forum to debate with you, you came to ours.

Jim

Okay...

By the way, I am new on here, so It's not like I'm on here to cause trouble. Also to let you know, I'm not a protestant. To tell you a little about me, I don't follow controversial teachings/teachings of man other than God the Father who has giving me the Holy Spirit for that very purpose. I'm not just being taught from a book only, but with his words of knowledge that I receive every night through the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit gives me visions every night and teaches me through it. The comforter and counselor (a.k.a. the Holy Spirit) teaches me how to live a Godly life. It's a awesome gift that God could ever give to someone.

Well anyways, thanks for your time and patience with me.


Oh, one more thing I forgot to mentioned... I own the "King James Version" and the "New International Version," not the "English translation Version."

 

[Chany]

Okay

By the way, I am new on here, so It's not like I'm on here to cause trouble, Also to let you know, I'm not a protestant. To tell you a little about me, I don't follow controversial teachings/teachings of man other than God the Father who has giving me the Holy Spirit for that very purpose. I'm not just being taught from a book only, but with his words of knowledge that I receive every night through the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit gives me visions every night and teaches me through it. The comforter and counselor (a.k.a. the Holy Spirit) teaches me how to live a Godly life. It's a awesome gift that God could ever give to someone.

Well, thanks for your time and patience with me.

So you're a Protestant. Non-denominational, but still Protestant.

My favorite saint, Saint Thomas Aquinas, supposedly had a vision and stopped writing his philosophical works because of it. Apparently Catholicism was good enough for him, and all the other Catholic visionaries throughout time. Why should I trust you over all of them?

 

[JimR-OCDS]

Okay...

By the way, I am new on here, so It's not like I'm on here to cause trouble. Also to let you know, I'm not a protestant. To tell you a little about me, I don't follow controversial teachings/teachings of man other than God the Father who has giving me the Holy Spirit for that very purpose. I'm not just being taught from a book only, but with his words of knowledge that I receive every night through the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit gives me visions every night and teaches me through it. The comforter and counselor (a.k.a. the Holy Spirit) teaches me how to live a Godly life. It's a awesome gift that God could ever give to someone.

Well anyways, thanks for your time and patience with me.


Oh, one more thing I forgot to mentioned... I own the "King James and the New International Version," not the "English translation Version."

So, you interpret Scripture on your own, but blow off the Scripture Scholars of the Catholic Church, who know ancient Hebrew and Greek, plus the historical and cultural background for when the various text of the Bible were written.

I'm not trying to be a wise guy here, but the fact is, you're knowledge of Scripture is very limited, especially if all you have to go by is the King James version of the Bible.

It's why the Church's role in proper interpretation of Scripture is so important.

For so many men have picked up a version of the Bible, and suddenly think that God has given them revelation that the Scholars of the Church never received, and so they start their own interpretation and often their own religion.

The point here is, be humble enough to know, that God has given the Church the people to interpret and teach Scripture correctly.



Jim

 

[JesusIsTheSonOfGod]

So, you interpret Scripture on your own?

Not at all, unless I am explaining to someone what I have learn from it. I keep what is writing through it and follow what is commanded through it.
________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

QUOTE: 2 Timothy 3:16 All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness.

2 Peter 1:20 Above all, you must understand that no prophecy of Scripture came about by the prophet's own interpretation. For prophecy never had its origin in the will of man, but men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit.

Romans 15:4 For everything that was written in the past was written to teach us, so that through endurance and the encouragement of the Scriptures we might have hope.

Romans 10:17 Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word of Christ.

1 Timothy 6:3-5 If anyone teaches false doctrines and does not agree to the sound instruction of our Lord Jesus Christ and to godly teaching, he is conceited and understands nothing. He has an unhealthy interest in controversies and quarrels about words that result in envy, strife, malicious talk, evil suspicions and constant friction between men of corrupt mind, who have been robbed of the truth and who think that godliness is a means to financial gain.

 

[Chany]

So you're a Protestant.

 

[JesusIsTheSonOfGod]

So you're a Protestant. Non-denominational, but still Protestant.

My favorite saint, Saint Thomas Aquinas, supposedly had a vision and stopped writing his philosophical works because of it. Apparently Catholicism was good enough for him, and all the other Catholic visionaries throughout time. Why should I trust you over all of them?

If you want to call me that, than fine, but I do not like to title myself or to categorize myself into any traditions of man other than to call myself a Follower of Christ and a believer in God.
________________________________________________________________

Quote: John 10:1-21 “I tell you the truth, the man who does not enter the sheep pen by the gate, but climbs in by some other way, is a thief and a robber. The man who enters by the gate is the shepherd of his sheep. The watchman opens the gate for him, and the sheep listen to his voice. He calls his own sheep by name and leads them out. When he has brought out all his own, he goes on ahead of them, and his sheep follow him because they know his voice. But they will never follow a stranger; in fact, they will run away from him because they do not recognize a stranger’s voice.” Jesus used this figure of speech, but they did not understand what he was telling them.
Therefore Jesus said again, “I tell you the truth, I am the gate for the sheep. All who ever came before me were thieves and robbers, but the sheep did not listen to them. I am the gate; whoever enters through me will be saved. He will come in and go out, and find pasture. The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy; I have come that they may have life, and have it to the full.
“I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep. The hired hand is not the shepherd who owns the sheep. So when he sees the wolf coming, he abandons the sheep and runs away. Then the wolf attacks the flock and scatters it. The man runs away because he is a hired hand and cares nothing for the sheep.
“I am the good shepherd; I know my sheep and my sheep know me— just as the Father knows me and I know the Father—and I lay down my life for the sheep. I have other sheep that are not of this sheep pen. I must bring them also. They too will listen to my voice, and there shall be one flock and one shepherd. The reason my Father loves me is that I lay down my life—only to take it up again. No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have authority to lay it down and authority to take it up again. This command I received from my Father.”
At these words the Jews were again divided. Many of them said, “He is demon-possessed and raving mad. Why listen to him?”
But others said, “These are not the sayings of a man possessed by a demon. Can a demon open the eyes of the blind?"