Yet Another Verse Disproves Pre-Trib Rapture

[n2thelight]

The mistake made in the pre-trib doctrine is that they consider the evil of Satan ln the tribulation. The truth is the church is not to suffer the wrath of God when he brings judgement. This wrath is the basis that the pre-trib is based on when it is totally off the mark.
If the church is gone, why would Christ say for us to endure to the end if we are removed from the tribulation which is the false understanding of the wrath of God. It is not the wrath of God in the tribulation but rather the wrath of Satan. That is the deception he has played on the religious world. The only ones leaving the earth in the tribulation are the dead who refuse to bow to Satan and are granted to rule with Christ through the millenium. The church does not suffer the wrath of God but it has to endure the wrath of Satan to receive it's reward in eternity. The church suffers the wrath of Satan not God. You must make the connection to see the truth.

hismessenger

And one must also understand what the wrath(tribulation)of satan is............

 

[Jerico Miles]

Here's a simple and accurate view of both sides.

*Pre-Tribbers knows Jesus and are busy preaching the gospel.

*Post-Tribbers don't know Jesus and are busy preparing for doomsday.

*Pre-Tribbers are destine for salvation, Post-Tribbers are destine to wrath.

*Pre-Tribbers will be busy with Jesus Christ in the Bema Seat and marriage Supper of the Lamb during the 7 years.

*Post-Tribbers will be busy with the antichrist in the 7 trumpets and 7 bowls during the 7 years.

Whether if you're Pre or Post, you're just prophesying your future.

 

[n2thelight]

Here's a simple and accurate view of both sides.

*Pre-Tribbers knows Jesus and are busy preaching the gospel.

*Post-Tribbers don't know Jesus and are busy preparing for doomsday.

*Pre-Tribbers are destine for salvation, Post-Tribbers are destine to wrath.

*Pre-Tribbers will be busy with Jesus Christ in the Bema Seat and marriage Supper of the Lamb during the 7 years.

*Post-Tribbers will be busy with the antichrist in the 7 trumpets and 7 bowls during the 7 years.

Whether if you're Pre or Post, you're just prophesying your future.

Allbeit a false Gospel.....

What is doomsday?

Pretribbers are destined for deception

Do you understand His wrath?

Marriage supper takes place on earth....

Yea we will be making a stand against the antichrist(satan)

 

[n2thelight]

No one has answered my question thus far....Why would Christ tell us in Matt 24,everything that must happen before His return,if we're not going to be here?...........

Guess you will tell me it's written to the tribulation saints....WoW!!!!

 

[Bible2]

Hismessenger said in post 20:

The church suffers the wrath of Satan not God. You must make the connection to see the truth.

Great point.

Nothing requires that the entire future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 will be God's wrath, or that any part of the tribulation that will be his wrath will be directed against any of the saved people (1 Thessalonians 5:9) who will still be alive on the earth at that time (Matthew 24:9-13, Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6). Most of the tribulation could be only Satan's wrath working through evil people and natural forces to bring disaster on the earth, like when Satan was allowed to work through evil people and natural forces to bring disaster on righteous Job (Job 1:12-20), against whom God had no wrath.

The tribulation's first 5 seals (Revelation 6:1-11) won't be God's wrath or judgment, for after the first 4 seals the martyrs of the 5th seal ask God when he is going to bring his judgment against the world (Revelation 6:10). And the killing of even more martyrs, which the 5th seal foretells will happen sometime after the 5th seal (Revelation 6:11), won't be God's wrath against those martyrs. So Jesus' unsealing the tribulation's seals (Revelation 6), the tribulation's first stage, doesn't mean that the events unsealed will be God's wrath, but that they will be permitted by God to happen at that time.

The tribulation's 6th seal (Revelation 6:12-14) will happen sometime before the day of the Lord (Joel 2:31, Revelation 6:12), whereas the day of the Lord/Christ (2 Thessalonians 2:2) will begin at his 2nd coming (1 Corinthians 1:7-8; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8; 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10), which won't happen until Revelation 19:7 to 20:6, immediately after the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8). Similarly, the day of the Lord's wrath (Psalms 110:5) won't begin until Jesus' 2nd coming (Revelation 19:19-21).

So the people quoted at the 6th seal (Revelation 6:17), during only the first stage of the tribulation, could be just as mistaken as Job was when Job said that what was happening to him was God's wrath against him (Job 19:11). Just as what was happening to Job was actually Satan's wrath against him, not God's wrath, so the 6th seal could actually be Satan's wrath, not God's wrath. And just as the writer of the book of Job didn't go out of his way to correct Job's mistaken statement in Job 19:11, and just as the apostles John and Matthew didn't go out of their ways to correct the mistaken statements of the people they quoted in John 7:12b and Matthew 27:63a, so the apostle John could have not gone out of his way to correct the statement of the people he quoted in Revelation 6:17.

After the tribulation's 6th seal will occur its 7th seal (Revelation 8:1), out of which will come its 7 trumpets (Revelation 8:1-2). Note that nothing requires that any of the first 6 trumpets' events in Revelation chapters 8 and 9 will be God's wrath. The 5th trumpet's events will be the work of weird locust-like beings from the bottomless pit (Revelation 9:2-10) led by a fallen angel from the bottomless pit (Revelation 9:11). And the 6th trumpet's events to the end of Revelation 9 will be the work of weird horse-like beings led by 4 fallen angels previously bound at the Euphrates (Revelation 9:14-19). So even though good angels of God will sound the first 6 trumpets, this could be announcing God's allowing the wrath of Satan to destroy 1/3 of different things (Revelation 8:7-12, Revelation 9:15,18), just as Satan will subsequently, mid-tribulation, be allowed by God to cause 1/3 of the angels (i.e. the fallen angels) to be cast down to the earth permanently (Revelation 12:4,9).

Revelation chapters 8 and 9 will happen before the Antichrist's (the individual-man aspect of the beast's) future, literal 3.5-year worldwide Luciferian/Satanic reign (Revelation 13:4-18, Revelation 12:9). And the events in Revelation chapters 8 and 9 could be used by Satan to help prepare the world to welcome that reign. For what he could do is first take great pleasure in causing the destruction in each event, but then claim that the destruction isn't from him, but from YHWH, and that YHWH is a cruel tyrant god who hates mankind and only wants to make it suffer, while he (Satan, as "Lucifer") only wants the best for mankind (cf. Mark 8:33b). In this way, he could deceive the world into turning away from YHWH and instead worshipping him (the dragon) and the Antichrist (Revelation 13:4-18, Revelation 12:9). The Antichrist will utterly revile YHWH (Revelation 13:6, Daniel 11:36).

After the Antichrist's literal 3.5-year reign (Revelation 13:5-7) is declared legally over at the sounding of the tribulation's 7th trumpet (Revelation 11:15), the 7 plagues of the 7 vials of God's wrath will come out of the heavenly-temple opening of the 7th trumpet (Revelation 11:19, Revelation 15:5 to 16:1). The vials will then be poured out on the Antichrist's followers as God's judgment for their receiving the Antichrist's mark and worshipping his image (Revelation 16:2), and for their killing of people in the church (Revelation 16:6-7, Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13).

During the Antichrist's worldwide reign, people in the church will be hated and killed in every nation for refusing to renounce the name of Jesus Christ (Matthew 24:9-13). They will be beheaded for refusing to renounce the witness of Jesus Christ (Revelation 20:4), for refusing to accept the antichrist lies that Jesus himself isn't the Christ (1 John 2:22), and that Christ himself isn't in the flesh (2 John 1:7). They will be beheaded for refusing to renounce the sound doctrine of the Bible, the Word of God (Revelation 20:4; 2 Timothy 3:15 to 4:4), for refusing to depart from the Biblical faith and give heed instead to seducing spirits and doctrines of devils (1 Timothy 4:1-2). They will be beheaded for refusing to worship the Antichrist's image (Revelation 20:4, Revelation 13:15). And all of this will be Satan's wrath against the church (Revelation 12:17), not God's wrath, for the church isn't appointed to God's wrath (1 Thessalonians 5:9).

Even when God's wrath comes in the 7 vials (Revelation 16), the tribulation's final stage, because the church isn't appointed to God's wrath (1 Thessalonians 5:9), none of the vials will be directed at any of those in the church who will still be alive on the earth at that time, still waiting for Jesus' coming as a thief (Revelation 16:15). Instead, they will go into protective chambers which they will have prepared for themselves on the earth (Isaiah 26:20), just as Noah and his family went into the protective ark which they had prepared for themselves on the earth (Genesis 7:11,13).

Jesus will return right after the 7th and last vial is completed (Revelation 16:17,19, Revelation 19:2-21, Matthew 24:29-30), and he will bring the 2nd-coming wrath of God on the unsaved world (Revelation 19:15-21). But before that 2nd-coming wrath begins, the church will be caught up together/gathered together (raptured) (1 Thessalonians 4:17; 2 Thessalonians 2:1, Matthew 24:31) into the sky to hold a meeting in the air with the returned Jesus (1 Thessalonians 4:17).

 

[Bible2]

Jerico Miles said in post 22:

*Pre-Tribbers will be busy with Jesus Christ in the Bema Seat and marriage Supper of the Lamb during the 7 years.

The 10-virgins parable (Matthew 25:1-13) shows that the marriage of the church to Jesus won't occur until his 2nd coming (Matthew 25:10), which Jesus had just finished saying won't occur until "immediately after the tribulation" (Matthew 24:29-31), just like Revelation 19:7 shows that the marriage won't occur until after the (never fulfilled) tribulation, shown in Revelation chapters 6 to 18. The parable's extra oil (Matthew 25:4,9b) could represent the continued good works of believers, by which they will be able to pass the judgment of the church by Jesus (Matthew 25:19-30, Romans 2:6-8) and enter the marriage of the church to Jesus at his 2nd coming (Matthew 25:10, Revelation 19:7-21).

The marriage supper (Revelation 19:9) won't have yet begun by the time of Revelation 19, which won't begin until after the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (cf. Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8). For regarding the church, the marriage supper will be a literal feast in the earthly Jerusalem after the resurrection and marriage of the church at Jesus' 2nd coming (Isaiah 25:6-9; 1 Corinthians 15:54, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-16; 1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-54). While the church will enjoy a feast "of fat things full of marrow, of wines on the lees well refined" (Isaiah 25:6), the birds will feast on the corpses of the world's armies defeated at Jesus' 2nd coming (Revelation 19:17-21).

Also, regarding the 10-virgins parable, in Matthew 25:6 "midnight" could represent mid-tribulation, when the abomination of desolation (possibly a standing, android image of the Antichrist) could be set up in the holy place (the inner sanctum) of a 3rd Jewish temple in Jerusalem (Matthew 24:15, Daniel 11:31). So when it says "at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh" (Matthew 25:6), this could mean that at the mid-tribulation point when the abomination of desolation is set up, the church will be given the knowledge of the date (as in the year, month, and day) of Jesus' 2nd coming. This date could be the 1,335th day after the abomination of desolation is set up (Daniel 12:11-12, cf. Revelation 16:15).

Jerico Miles said in post 22:

Whether if you're Pre or Post, you're just prophesying your future.

Do you mean there will be only a partial rapture of the church, sometime before the 2nd coming, of only those in the church who are ready for the rapture by simply believing it's pre-tribulation? If so, note that nothing in the Bible says any believer will be left behind at the rapture, that the entire church won't be raptured at the time of Matthew 24:31, 2 Thessalonians 2:1, and 1 Thessalonians 4:17, which is the time of Jesus' 2nd coming, immediately after the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17). The need for believers to be ready for Jesus' 2nd coming (Matthew 24:44, Matthew 25:10) doesn't have to do with whether or not they will be raptured at that time, but with whether or not they will lose their salvation at that time (e.g. Luke 12:45-46, Matthew 25:26,30, Mark 8:35-38).

For some saved people at the judgment of the church by Jesus (2 Corinthians 5:10, Romans 2:6-8, Luke 12:45-48, Matthew 25:19-30) at his 2nd coming (Psalms 50:3-5, cf. Mark 13:27) will lose their salvation because of such things as unrepentant sin (Luke 12:45-46, Hebrews 10:26-29; 1 Corinthians 9:27), unrepentant laziness (Matthew 25:26,30, John 15:2a, Romans 2:6-8), or apostasy (Mark 8:35-38, Hebrews 6:4-8; 2 Timothy 2:12b). That's why saved people know the "terror" of the coming judgment of the church by Jesus (2 Corinthians 5:10-11), why they must remain in fear of being cut off the same as unbelievers if they don't continue in God's goodness (Romans 11:20-22, Luke 12:45-46), why they must be careful to work out their own ultimate salvation with fear and trembling (Philippians 2:12b; 1 Peter 1:17, Romans 2:6-8).

 

[Bible2]

n2thelight said in post 24:

No one has answered my question thus far....Why would Christ tell us in Matt 24,everything that must happen before His return,if we're not going to be here?...........

Guess you will tell me it's written to the tribulation saints....WoW!!!!

That's indeed the mistaken answer of the pre-tribulation rapture view.

But the saints who will be in the tribulation will be the church, for they will be believers in Jesus Christ (Matthew 24:9-13, Revelation 7:9,14, Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6), and now there are no believers outside of the church (Ephesians 4:4-6). Those in the church who will be in the tribulation could include most of the believers alive today, for there will be no pre-tribulation rapture (2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Matthew 24:29-31).

Also, Matthew 24 was addressed privately to only believers (Matthew 24:3,4,9), and in Jesus' mind all believers of all times are one (John 17:20-21, Ephesians 4:4-6). The entire book of Revelation was likewise addressed to only believers (Revelation 1:1-4, Revelation 22:16). Just as the (mistaken) pre-tribulation rapture view admits that, for example, John 14 and Matthew 24's parallel chapter of Luke 21 can apply to those in the church today (e.g. Luke 21:36, John 14:3), so the pre-tribulation rapture view should be able to admit that Matthew 24 and Revelation chapters 6 to 18 can apply to those in the church today.

Matthew 24:9-13 refers to the future killing of Christians, those who will be hated and killed for the name of Jesus Christ (Matthew 24:9) in every nation of the earth during the future, literal 3.5-year worldwide reign of the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast") (Revelation 13:5-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6). Matthew 24:9-13 shows that not all Christians will continue to love Jesus during that time, but some Christians' love for him will grow cold because of their unrepentant sin (Matthew 24:12; 1 Timothy 4:1-2; 2 Timothy 4:3-4) or because they will become offended (Matthew 24:10) that he's letting them suffer in the tribulation (Matthew 13:21, Isaiah 8:21-22; 1 Peter 4:12-13). Only those Christians who continue to love Jesus to the end will be ultimately saved (Matthew 24:13).

--

The mistaken idea of a pre-tribulation rapture is dangerous because when no pre-tribulation rapture occurs and pre-trib believers begin to suffer in the tribulation they could think that God has somehow been defeated by Satan, that Satan by his power has caused a pre-trib rapture not to happen despite God wanting one to. Or they could think that God has cruelly broken his (supposed) promise, that he has pulled the rug out from under them, that he cruelly lied to them and must now be laughing at their surprise and suffering (Proverbs 1:26), so that in their rage they could curse God and commit apostasy during the tribulation (Isaiah 8:21-22, Matthew 24:9-13, Matthew 13:21), to the ultimate loss of their salvation (Hebrews 6:4-8, John 15:6; 2 Timothy 2:12).

And even if they instead rightly think, "Okay, we must have just been mistaken in thinking the rapture was supposed to be pre-trib. Satan hasn't defeated God, and God didn't lie to us", nonetheless, because they had held so strongly to the pre-trib idea for so long, their minds could be completely unprepared to face the long tribulation that lies ahead of them (just as holding too strongly to the mistaken idea of preterism, or historicism, or symbolicism, or spiritualism, could leave some believers less prepared mentally to endure the future tribulation).

The Bible gives those in the church clear warning ahead of time about everything they're going to have to face during the future tribulation (Mark 13:23, Revelation chapters 6 to 18, Revelation 1:1, Revelation 22:16) so they can be better prepared mentally not to be blindsided (1 Peter 4:12-13) or deceived by anything that's coming (Matthew 24:4-5,23-25, Revelation 13:13-18, Revelation 19:20), and so they can be better prepared mentally to endure the future tribulation with patience and faith to the end (Matthew 24:9-13, Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6), that is, until death or until Jesus returns immediately after the tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31, Revelation 19:2 to 20:6; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8).

 

[Dale]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Bible2 in post #25:[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]<< The 5th trumpet's events will be the work of weird locust-like beings from the bottomless pit (Revelation 9:2-10) led by a fallen angel from the bottomless pit (Revelation 9:11). And the 6th trumpet's events to the end of Revelation 9 will be the work of weird horse-like beings led by 4 fallen angels previously bound at the Euphrates (Revelation 9:14-19). >>[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Teachers Bible Commentary* p. 812 column 2:[/FONT]
“[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]The fifth and sixth trumpets herald a totally different kind of judgment. Symbolic locusts from within the earth suggest torment and destruction caused by forces within the empire. The invasion of a host of Parthians on symbolic horses suggest destruction coming from outside the empire. Too, the sixth is more intense than the fifth: the locusts cause misery; the horses kill.”[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]*Teachers Bible Commentary, Paschall & Hobbs, Editors, Nashville, TN: Broadman Press, 1972[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]The Left Behind movies present the locusts and horses as demons let out of the Pit. It is difficult to imagine a more unlikely interpretation. More sensible commentators have thought that the locusts are helicopters and the horses are tanks. Of course, the locusts could simply be insects devouring crops at a time when there is already hunger, the price of food is already high, and agriculture has already been disrupted.[/FONT]



[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Bible2 in post #26:[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]<< If so, note that nothing in the Bible says any believer will be left behind at the rapture, that the entire church won't be raptured at the time of Matthew 24:31, 2 Thessalonians 2:1, and 1 Thessalonians 4:17, which is the time of Jesus' 2nd coming, immediately after the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17). >>[/FONT]



[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Here you've hit the nail right on the head. [/FONT]



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[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]*[/FONT]

 

[Dale]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]NJBeliever in post #9:[/FONT]
&#8220;[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]This is what I mean. Scripture is abundantly clear. The antichrist rules for 42 months. Thus ANYONE who is paying any attention to this prophecy, Christian or not, will KNOW, THE EXACT DAY that Christ returns. Are you really going to try and argue this isn't true? &#8221;[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]3 ½ Years = 42 months[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]The notion of a 3 ½ year time period comes from the interpretation that the 3 ½ days mentioned in Revelation 11: 9 and 11:11 means 3 ½ years.[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Dispensationalists attach special significance to seven year periods, so they take 3 ½ years to be half of a greatly significant seven year period. However, this appears to be pure speculation.[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Teachers Bible Commentary* p. 813 column 2:[/FONT]
&#8220;[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Three and one-half, half of seven, is the number of uncertainty. Three and one-half days is a brief period of uncertain length. (v. 11) Three and one-half years is a longer period of uncertain length (v 2).&#8221;[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]*Teachers Bible Commentary, Paschall & Hobbs, Editors, Nashville, TN: Broadman Press, 1972[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]*[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]*[/FONT]

 

[Dale]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Bible2 in post #25:[/FONT]
“[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]During the Antichrist's worldwide reign, people in the church will be hated and killed in every nation for refusing to renounce the name of Jesus Christ (Matthew 24:9-13). They will be beheaded for refusing to renounce the witness of Jesus Christ (Revelation 20:4), for refusing to accept the antichrist lies that Jesus himself isn't the Christ (1 John 2:22), and that Christ himself isn't in the flesh (2 John 1:7). They will be beheaded for refusing to renounce the sound doctrine of the Bible, the Word of God (Revelation 20:4; 2 Timothy 3:15 to 4:4), for refusing to depart from the Biblical faith and give heed instead to seducing spirits and doctrines of devils (1 Timothy 4:1-2). They will be beheaded for refusing to worship the Antichrist's image (Revelation 20:4, Revelation 13:15). And all of this will be Satan's wrath against the church (Revelation 12:17), not God's wrath, for the church isn't appointed to God's wrath (1 Thessalonians 5:9).”[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]The Book of Revelation doesn't say that the martyrs will be beheaded. It just tells us that they will be killed in some way, and so become martyrs.[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]*[/FONT]



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[beck12]

Yet Another Verse Disproves Pre-Trib Rapture



There are a number of verses in the New Testament on the Second Coming which tell us that Jesus will “come as a thief.” Many believers in a pre-Trib Rapture point to these verses as evidence that Christ will come silently for Christians and only later return in a public Second Coming.



I do not share this point of view. The passages where Jesus comes as a thief can't be separated out from other passages that tell of the Second Coming, Millenial kingdom and Final Judgment. In any case, the passages where Jesus comes as a thief do not fit a rescue operation where Christ comes to save Christians from persecution and chaos.



Consider the following passage.



14 They are demonic spirits that perform signs, and they go out to the kings of the whole world, to gather them for the battle on the great day of God Almighty.
15 “Look, I come like a thief! Blessed is the one who stays awake and remains clothed, so as not to go naked and be shamefully exposed.”
16 Then they gathered the kings together to the place that in Hebrew is called Armageddon.
--Revelation 16: 14-16 NIV



In verse 15, Jesus speaks telling us that He will “come like a thief.” At this point the angels have already poured out six bowls of wrath, only the last is still to come. In this very passage, demons are gathering the evil armies of the world for the final battle at Armageddon. As strange as it must seem for believers in a pre-trib Rapture, Jesus is still promising to “come like a thief” -- but it hasn't happened yet! Christians are being persecuted and there are martyrs. There is no way around the conclusion that if Jesus was going to rescue Christians from persecution and end times chaos, He would have done so much earlier.



*



*

If you read rest of the revelations you would clearly see it teachers a pre-trib rapture.
In the bible it says

Matthew 24:42-44, “Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come. But know this, that Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.” —Hebrews 11:5​

It clearly states no one would know when the second coming happens BUT IF the tribulation period happened before the rapture WE WOULD KNOW THE TIME HE RETURNS therefor the rapture HAS TO HAPPEN BEFORE THE TRIBULATION PERIOD.

 

[n2thelight]

If you read rest of the revelations you would clearly see it teachers a pre-trib rapture.
In the bible it says

Matthew 24:42-44, “Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come. But know this, that Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.” —Hebrews 11:5​

It clearly states no one would know when the second coming happens BUT IF the tribulation period happened before the rapture WE WOULD KNOW THE TIME HE RETURNS therefor the rapture HAS TO HAPPEN BEFORE THE TRIBULATION PERIOD.

Yet He told us everything that MUST happen before that return,and He never said a rapture is one of them....Can you show me the rapture in Matthew 24......

 

[Jerico Miles]

Yet He told us everything that MUST happen before that return,and He never said a rapture is one of them....Can you show me the rapture in Matthew 24......

Matthew 24:29-30
Easy-to-Read Version (ERV)

29 &#8220;Right after the trouble of those days, this will happen:
&#8216;The sun will become dark, and the moon will not give light.
The stars will fall from the sky, and everything in the sky will be changed.

30 &#8220;Then there will be something in the sky that shows the Son of Man is coming. All the people of the world will cry. Everyone will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds in the sky. He will come with power and great glory.

Second Coming

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Matthew 24:31
Easy-to-Read Version (ERV)
31 He will use a loud trumpet to send his angels all around the earth. They will gather his chosen people from every part of the earth.

Just as God summoned the Jews from every part of the earth on May 14th, 1948 to commence the rebirth of Israel, Jesus will summon those that repent during the great tribulation to commence the Millennium. This is not the rapture.

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Matthew 24:37-42
Easy-to-Read Version (ERV)
Only God Knows When the Time Will Be

37 When the Son of Man comes, it will be the same as what happened during Noah&#8217;s time. 38 In those days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving their children to be married right up to the day Noah entered the boat. 39 They knew nothing about what was happening until the flood came and destroyed them all. It will be the same when the Son of Man comes. 40 Two men will be working together in the field. One will be taken and the other will be left. 41 Two women will be grinding grain with a mill. One will be taken and the other will be left. 42 So always be ready. You don&#8217;t know the day your Lord will come.

This was and will be what the rapture will be like. It'll happen when there is peace and nothing to worry about. Because nobody in their right mind would be eating and drinking, marrying and giving their children to be married after going through The Great Tribulation. Everyone will be yelling "The world is coming to an end!!!"

 

[beck12]

Jerico thanks for posting those scriptures, your just proved what i said. shalom and god bless.

 

[Bible2]

Jerico Miles said in post 33:

37 When the Son of Man comes, it will be the same as what happened during Noah&#8217;s time. 38 In those days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving their children to be married right up to the day Noah entered the boat. 39 They knew nothing about what was happening until the flood came and destroyed them all. It will be the same when the Son of Man comes. 40 Two men will be working together in the field. One will be taken and the other will be left. 41 Two women will be grinding grain with a mill. One will be taken and the other will be left. 42 So always be ready. You don&#8217;t know the day your Lord will come.

Matthew 24:37-42 and the similar Luke 17:26-37 refer to what will happen at Jesus' 2nd coming, "when the Son of man is revealed" (Luke 17:30), "the coming of the Son of man" (Matthew 24:37,39), which Jesus had just finished saying won't happen until immediately after the future tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31). Those "taken" at the 2nd coming (Luke 17:34-36, Matthew 24:40-41) will be unsaved people who will be taken to where they will be killed and birds will eat their dead bodies (Luke 17:36-37; Matthew 24:28, cf. Job 39:30b; Revelation 19:21). The Greek word "paralambano" ("taken": Luke 17:34-36, Matthew 24:40-41) can be used to refer to being taken to another place to be killed (John 19:16-18).

Those "left" where they are at the 2nd coming (Luke 17:34-36, Matthew 24:40-41) will include unsaved people who will be forced to come up annually to worship the returned Jesus in Jerusalem during the millennium (Zechariah 14:16-19). These unsaved people will have to be ruled with a rod of iron by Jesus and the bodily resurrected church during the millennium (Revelation 2:26-29, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 20:4-6, Psalms 2, Psalms 66:3, Psalms 72:8-11). And their descendants will be deceived by Satan after the millennium is over into committing the Gog/Magog rebellion (Revelation 20:7-10, Ezekiel chapters 38-39).

Before the millennium, at Jesus' 2nd coming, those in the church will neither be "taken" and killed, nor "left" where they are, but will be "gathered together" (raptured) (Matthew 24:31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1) into the sky to hold a meeting in the air with the returned Jesus (1 Thessalonians 4:17). The purpose of this rapture meeting will be so that those in the church can be judged by Jesus (Psalms 50:3-5, cf. Mark 13:27) and married to Jesus (Revelation 19:7) in the sky, before Jesus descends from the sky (the first heaven) with the obedient part of the church to bring the 2nd-coming wrath on the unsaved world (Revelation 19:14 to 20:3).

So the 2nd coming will be like "the days of Noah" (Matthew 24:37) and "the days of Lot" (Luke 17:28,30) in that just as Noah went into the ark before the Flood, and Lot went out from Sodom before it was destroyed, so the church will be raptured into the sky at the 2nd coming (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17, Matthew 24:30-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:7) before Jesus begins the 2nd-coming wrath (Revelation 19:15 to 20:3, Luke 17:26-30, Matthew 24:37-39).

 

[Dale]

Beck12 in post #31:
<< If you read rest of the revelations you would clearly see it teachers a pre-trib rapture.
In the bible it says
Matthew 24:42-44, “Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come. But know this, that Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.” —Hebrews 11:5
It clearly states no one would know when the second coming happens BUT IF the tribulation period happened before the rapture WE WOULD KNOW THE TIME HE RETURNS therefor the rapture HAS TO HAPPEN BEFORE THE TRIBULATION PERIOD. >>


You are quite mistakenly implying that I haven't read all of Revelation. I have read it in at least three translations and a great deal of commentary besides.

You attribute the verse you quote to Matthew 24 and also to Hebrews 11. It is apparently from Matthew 24. How did you split a pre-trib Rapture off from the Second Coming?

<< BUT IF the tribulation period happened before the rapture WE WOULD KNOW THE TIME HE RETURNS therefor the rapture HAS TO HAPPEN BEFORE THE TRIBULATION PERIOD. >>

This doesn't add up. If there is a Rapture seven years before the Second Coming (nothing in Scripture says this) anyone could know the time of the Second Coming as soon as the Rapture has happened … but that has nothing to do with the timing of Tribulation.


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[beck12]

Beck12 in post #31:
<< If you read rest of the revelations you would clearly see it teachers a pre-trib rapture.
In the bible it says
Matthew 24:42-44, “Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come. But know this, that Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.” —Hebrews 11:5
It clearly states no one would know when the second coming happens BUT IF the tribulation period happened before the rapture WE WOULD KNOW THE TIME HE RETURNS therefor the rapture HAS TO HAPPEN BEFORE THE TRIBULATION PERIOD. >>


You are quite mistakenly implying that I haven't read all of Revelation. I have read it in at least three translations and a great deal of commentary besides.

You attribute the verse you quote to Matthew 24 and also to Hebrews 11. It is apparently from Matthew 24. How did you split a pre-trib Rapture off from the Second Coming?

<< BUT IF the tribulation period happened before the rapture WE WOULD KNOW THE TIME HE RETURNS therefor the rapture HAS TO HAPPEN BEFORE THE TRIBULATION PERIOD. >>

This doesn't add up. If there is a Rapture seven years before the Second Coming (nothing in Scripture says this) anyone could know the time of the Second Coming as soon as the Rapture has happened … but that has nothing to do with the timing of Tribulation.


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Actraly no everyone would not know when he comes if the rapture happens first, mainly because 7 years of tribulation, but it does not say that it will happen imediatly after the 7 years, so there for my statement has to be correct (atleast most likly)

 

[Douggg]

Yet He told us everything that MUST happen before that return,and He never said a rapture is one of them....Can you show me the rapture in Matthew 24......

"everything" in Matthew 24? No, not everything. Like Gog/Magog. Like the little horn arising among ten kings of the fourth empire. Like the confirming of the covenant for 7 years. Like the 666 requirement.

 

[Douggg]

This doesn't add up. If there is a Rapture seven years before the Second Coming (nothing in Scripture says this) anyone could know the time of the Second Coming as soon as the Rapture has happened &#8230; but that has nothing to do with the timing of Tribulation.

Dale, if the rapture takes place before the seven years - it is going to depend upon what the cover story will be to explain it.

In general though, I agree that the major rapture views tie the timing to the 7 years one way or another, and then mandate that the rapture can't take place outside of their particular view.

Personally, I am anytime rapture view, which is that the rapture can happen anytime between now and when it actually takes place.

 

[Dale]

Dale, if the rapture takes place before the seven years - it is going to depend upon what the cover story will be to explain it.

In general though, I agree that the major rapture views tie the timing to the 7 years one way or another, and then mandate that the rapture can't take place outside of their particular view.

Personally, I am anytime rapture view, which is that the rapture can happen anytime between now and when it actually takes place.

Dougg,
You say “the seven years” and “to the 7 years”. I assume this comes from the Dispensationalist view that the Seven Trumpets in Revelation mean seven years. Yet where is the proof of this? Show me one verse that says there will be a special, highly significant seven year period leading up to the Second Coming. I don't believe there is one. Instead, we are told that “of that day and hour” no one knows.



Even those who believe in a pre-trib Rapture dispute the notion of a seven year Tribulation or a seven year reign of the Antichrist. Earlier in the thread I quoted the Bible Prophecy site. I'll quote them again.


“Many people think that the seven trumpets must sound during the final seven years, but there is absolutely no proof of that in the bible.”



Link:
ProphecyAndTruth




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