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Yet Another Verse Disproves Pre-Trib Rapture

Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum' started by Dale, Feb 16, 2014.

  1. Dale

    Dale Senior Veteran Supporter

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    Yet Another Verse Disproves Pre-Trib Rapture



    There are a number of verses in the New Testament on the Second Coming which tell us that Jesus will “come as a thief.” Many believers in a pre-Trib Rapture point to these verses as evidence that Christ will come silently for Christians and only later return in a public Second Coming.



    I do not share this point of view. The passages where Jesus comes as a thief can't be separated out from other passages that tell of the Second Coming, Millenial kingdom and Final Judgment. In any case, the passages where Jesus comes as a thief do not fit a rescue operation where Christ comes to save Christians from persecution and chaos.



    Consider the following passage.



    14 They are demonic spirits that perform signs, and they go out to the kings of the whole world, to gather them for the battle on the great day of God Almighty.
    15 “Look, I come like a thief! Blessed is the one who stays awake and remains clothed, so as not to go naked and be shamefully exposed.”
    16 Then they gathered the kings together to the place that in Hebrew is called Armageddon.
    --Revelation 16: 14-16 NIV



    In verse 15, Jesus speaks telling us that He will “come like a thief.” At this point the angels have already poured out six bowls of wrath, only the last is still to come. In this very passage, demons are gathering the evil armies of the world for the final battle at Armageddon. As strange as it must seem for believers in a pre-trib Rapture, Jesus is still promising to “come like a thief” -- but it hasn't happened yet! Christians are being persecuted and there are martyrs. There is no way around the conclusion that if Jesus was going to rescue Christians from persecution and end times chaos, He would have done so much earlier.



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    Last edited: Feb 16, 2014
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  2. Dale

    Dale Senior Veteran Supporter

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    We know that there are martyrs in Revelation long before Revelation 16. Take a look at Revelation 6.



    [FONT=Times New Roman, serif]9 When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God and the testimony they had maintained. 10 They called out in a loud voice, “How long, Sovereign Lord, holy and true, until you judge the inhabitants of the earth and avenge our blood?”11 Then each of them was given a white robe, and they were told to wait a little longer, until the full number of their fellow servants, their brothers and sisters, were killed just as they had been. [/FONT]
    [FONT=Times New Roman, serif]--Revelation 6:9-11 NIV[/FONT]



    I can only assume that the souls under the altar in Chapter 6 are those who are speaking when the altar responds in Chapter 16, just before the passage quoted in the OP.



    [FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]4 The third angel poured out his bowl on the rivers and springs of water, and they became blood. 5 Then I heard the angel in charge of the waters say:[/FONT]
    “[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]You are just in these judgments, O Holy One,
    you who are and who were;
    [/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]6 [/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]for they have shed the blood of your holy people and your prophets,[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]
    and you have given them blood to drink as they deserve.”
    [/FONT]

    [FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]7 And I heard the altar respond:[/FONT]
    “[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Yes, Lord God Almighty,
    true and just are your judgments.”
    [/FONT]

    --Revelation 16:4-7 NIV



    These martyrdoms are one reason for God's harsh judgments, but they occur before Jesus “comes as a thief.” In other words, Jesus does not rescue these Christians from martyrdom in a secret flyby.



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    Last edited: Feb 16, 2014
  3. BobRyan

    BobRyan Junior Member

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    All good points.

    Also notice that in Matt 24 it will be "as in the days of Noah".

    So they "knew not until the flood came and took them all away" - and yet what "signs" did they have - that they were ignoring?

    1. The boat was finished. So time for rain.
    2. The animals went into the ark by 2's and by 7's.
    3. The door of the ark closed and for 7 days nothing happened.

    But on that 7th day - everything changed "and they knew not until the flood came and took them all away".

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
  4. Dale

    Dale Senior Veteran Supporter

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    Here is an example of a website that pushes the view that Christ coming as a thief is an allusion to a Rapture that will precede the Second Coming by some years.
    The following site says that in the Rapture, Christ comes as a thief to get Christians, in a “Jailbreak.” The authorities will explain the Rapture as an alien abduction.


    Link:

    Thief in the Night


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  5. Dale

    Dale Senior Veteran Supporter

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    I Thessalonians 5:4,9-10 "For you yourselves know full well that the day of the Lord will come just like a thief in the night. For God has not destined us for wrath, but for obtaining salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ, who died for us, that whether we are awake or asleep, we may live together with him."

    The following site, Contender Ministries, cites this passage and comes to the following conclusion.


    “Many Christians are afraid to talk about the rapture of the Church. Deep down they feel an excitement about the prospect of being snatched away in the twinkling of an eye to be with the Lord and Savior they love, worship, and have given their lives to. However, they fear being labeled or criticized for a hope that many through the ages have had; a hope that God fully intended for us to have. ”



    Link:
    The Rapture of the Church


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  6. NJBeliever

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    Hi Dale - Can you at least admit that if you hold to the post-tribulation rapture model that Jesus CANNOT come back at any time? And certainly will NOT come like a thief? Clearly, anyone who has a bible or basic knowledge of the book of Revelation will know EXACTLY when Christ returns once the end times have started. Revelation 13 tells us the beast will be in power for EXACTLY 3 1/2 years or 1260 days.

    Revelation 16 tells us that the Beast, False Prophet and Dragon release demonic spirits to recruit the leaders of the world to come to battle Jesus at Armageddon. When The Lord returns, the Antichrist and his forces are waiting for Jesus. Clearly NO ONE is surprised by Jesus' return. They are waiting to fight Him.

    So even if we disagree on when the Rapture happens, can you at least see that there is no way you can hold to the "Jesus coming as a thief" notion and still maintain consistency with your rapture model?
     
  7. Dale

    Dale Senior Veteran Supporter

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    I'm not sure what you are saying here. A number of New Testament passages say that Jesus will come “as a thief” or “like a thief,” that is, suddenly and unexpectedly. The first passage where this is mentioned is Matthew 24:42-44, in the Apocalyptic passage in Matthew. There is no doubt that it will be unexpected for unbelievers.


    << When The Lord returns, the Antichrist and his forces are waiting for Jesus. Clearly NO ONE is surprised by Jesus' return. They are waiting to fight Him. >>


    That's not the way I understand it. The armies of the Antichrist do not gather to fight Jesus. The Book of Revelation doesn't say why they gather but the most likely conclusion is that they amass to destroy Israel.


    You mention being familiar with Revelation. Are you familiar with the Book of Daniel?
    “He will also invade the Beautiful Land.” --from Daniel 11:41 NIV
    The Beautiful Land is clearly Israel.


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  8. Dale

    Dale Senior Veteran Supporter

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    Take this article on the Rapture Ready site:

    The Veiled Doctrine of the Pre-Trib Rapture


    “When Christ comes as a thief (before the Tribulation), He will only trumpet His Presence to His bride that He is “stealing” from the world. ”


    Link:
    http://www.raptureready.com/soap/payne21.html


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  9. NJBeliever

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    And the sixth angel poured out his vial upon the great river Euphrates; and the water thereof was dried up, that the way of the kings of the east might be prepared.
    13 And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet.
    14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty. - Revelation 16:12-14.



    And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months. - Revelation 13:5.


    This is what I mean. Scripture is abundantly clear. The antichrist rules for 42 months. Thus ANYONE who is paying any attention to this prophecy, Christian or not, will KNOW, THE EXACT DAY that Christ returns. Are you really going to try and argue this isn't true?

    Not to mention that if someone is just looking for the trumpet or bowl judgments, which are supernatural catastrophic events (all rivers turning to blood, 1/3 of the world population being murdered, etc.), then again, it will be OBVIOUS to know from reading Revelation, when Christ will return.

    The Euphrates river is dried up for the armies of the world to gather with the Antichrist. Again, this is another way to KNOW Christ is returning. And Scripture is clear that they are all teaming up to battle God. So again, even the heathen KNOW Jesus is coming.


    So your post-trib model fails on this point alone. You are forced to either twist Scripture beyond recognition or just ignore plain meaning to try and work your way around such an obvious flaw.

    Additionally, Jesus obviously can't come back at any time, because all these events have to transpire first (Antichrist, False prophet, 3 1/2 year reign, mark of the beast, etc.). So you clearly can rest very easy tonight, because by your belief, there is no chance Jesus can return and catch you off guard.

    This is just one of many reasons why the post-trib model completely fails under Biblical scrutiny.
     
  10. Dale

    Dale Senior Veteran Supporter

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    [FONT=Times New Roman, serif]<< This is what I mean. Scripture is abundantly clear. The antichrist rules for 42 months. Thus ANYONE who is paying any attention to this prophecy, Christian or not, will KNOW, THE EXACT DAY that Christ returns. Are you really going to try and argue this isn't true? >>[/FONT]



    [FONT=Times New Roman, serif]To give the obvious reply:[/FONT]
    [FONT=Times New Roman, serif]
    [/FONT]
    [FONT=Times New Roman, serif]The Day and Hour Unknown[/FONT]
    &#8220;[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.&#8221;[/FONT]
    [FONT=Times New Roman, serif]--Matthew 24:36 NIV[/FONT]
    [FONT=Times New Roman, serif]and[/FONT]
    &#8220;[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Therefore keep watch, because you do not know on what day your Lord will come.&#8221;[/FONT]
    [FONT=Times New Roman, serif]--Matthew 24:42 NIV[/FONT]



    [FONT=Times New Roman, serif]<< Not to mention that if someone is just looking for the trumpet or bowl judgments, which are supernatural catastrophic events (all rivers turning to blood, 1/3 of the world population being murdered, etc.), then again, it will be OBVIOUS to know from reading Revelation, when Christ will return. >>[/FONT]



    [FONT=Times New Roman, serif]You are assuming that it is obvious what these trumpet and bowl judgments mean. It is not, there is considerable disagreement over what they mean.[/FONT]



    [FONT=Times New Roman, serif]<< So again, even the heathen KNOW Jesus is coming. >>[/FONT]



    [FONT=Times New Roman, serif]On the contrary, even today, the newspapers and the media show a flabbergasting ignorance of even the simplest points of what Christians believe. This tendency will only get worse as the world enters an end times scenario. I don't know who the Antichrist will be but we can surmise that he will be too busy mocking Christianity to understand it. Even if the Antichrist or his henchmen knew anything about the Bible, do you think they will be pointing out Biblical truths to the public? I don't think so.[/FONT]



    [FONT=Times New Roman, serif]<< Additionally, Jesus obviously can't come back at any time, because all these events have to transpire first (Antichrist, False prophet, 3 1/2 year reign, mark of the beast, etc.) >>[/FONT]



    [FONT=Times New Roman, serif]In your case it might be best to spend some time studying other parts of the Bible besides Revelation. To survive the events described in Revelation, Christians need to be grounded in the entire New Testament, and the Old Testament besides.[/FONT]



    [FONT=Times New Roman, serif]<< So you clearly can rest very easy tonight, because by your belief, there is no chance Jesus can return and catch you off guard. >>[/FONT]



    [FONT=Times New Roman, serif]The Bible warns us over and over to watch and be on guard. [/FONT]



    [FONT=Times New Roman, serif]*[/FONT]



    [FONT=Times New Roman, serif]*[/FONT]
     
  11. Dale

    Dale Senior Veteran Supporter

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    This site associates both the Rapture and the Day of the Lord with coming “like a thief in the night” and also “in the twinkling of an eye.”




    << The Rapture is the instant (“in the twinklling of an eye”)(1Cor 15:52) the Day of the LORD begins and it comes like a “thief in the night”. The second any day begins is as much a part of that day than any other measure of time during that day. When the moment the Holy Spirit descended on the Day of Pentecost the dispensation we call the Church Age began. The Ascent of the Holy Spirit with the saints in the Rapture will be the moment the Day of the LORD begins. Both the Day of the LORD and the Rapture are refered to as coming as a "thief in the night", which is the defining connection between the two terms. The only distinction that can be made is that the Rapture comes and only lasts for a blink of an eye the Day of the LORD begins, but the Day of the LORD is an extended period of time. The Day of the LORD is the next Dispensation which extends through the Tribulation to the end of the millennial kingdom reign of Jesus Christ. >>


    Link:
    Prophetic Bible - Rapture of the Church


     
  12. Bible2

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    Jesus' can't come back at any time, because the Bible makes clear he won't come back and gather together (rapture) the church until immediately after the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8). That's why the marriage of the church doesn't happen until Revelation 19:7, in connection with Jesus' 2nd coming and the bodily resurrection of the church at that time (Revelation 19:7 to 20:6; 1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-53; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-16). Matthew 24:30-31 refers to the same 2nd coming of Jesus and gathering together (rapture) of the church as 2 Thessalonians 2:1, which refers to the same 2nd coming of Jesus and catching up together (rapture) of the church as 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17.

    Jesus won't return and gather together (rapture) the church until sometime after there's a falling away (an apostasy) in the church, and the Antichrist sits in a 3rd Jewish temple in Jerusalem and proclaims himself God (2 Thessalonians 2:1-4, Daniel 11:31,36, Revelation 11:1-2, Revelation 13:4-8), and the abomination of desolation (possibly a standing, android image of the Antichrist) is set up in the holy place (the inner sanctum) of the 3rd Jewish temple (Matthew 24:15-31, Daniel 11:31). For when Jesus returns to gather together (and marry) the church he will destroy the Antichrist (2 Thessalonians 2:1,8, Revelation 19:7,20). Before Jesus returns, the church will have to go through the future, literal 3.5 years of the Antichrist's worldwide reign (Revelation 13:5-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-31).

    At Jesus' 2nd coming (1 Thessalonians 4:15; 2 Thessalonians 2:1, Matthew 24:30) the church will be resurrected and caught up together/gathered together (raptured) (1 Thessalonians 4:16-17; 2 Thessalonians 2:1, Matthew 24:31) not to remove the church from the earth (Proverbs 10:30, John 17:15,20) but to take the church only as high as the clouds of the sky to hold a meeting in the air with the returned Jesus (1 Thessalonians 4:17).

    At that meeting Jesus will judge everyone in the church (Psalms 50:3-5, cf. Mark 13:27) by their works (2 Corinthians 5:10, Romans 2:6-8, Luke 12:45-48, Matthew 25:19-30). And then Jesus will marry in the clouds the obedient part of the church (Revelation 19:7-8, Matthew 25:1-12), those in the church (of all times) who "overcame" to the end (Revelation 3:5, Revelation 2:26). They will then mount white horses and come back down from the sky (the first heaven) with Jesus (Revelation 19:14) as he defeats the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast") and the world's armies (Revelation 19:15-21). Jesus will then make the marriage supper of Revelation 19:9 for the resurrected and married obedient part of the church in the earthly Jerusalem (Isaiah 25:6-9; 1 Corinthians 15:54). Jesus and the obedient part of the church will then reign on the earth for 1,000 years (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29).

    Jesus' coming back, after the tribulation, will still be like a thief. For note that 1 Thessalonians 5:2 refers to "the day of the Lord", and the day of the Lord/Christ (2 Thessalonians 2:2) will begin at the Lord Jesus Christ's 2nd coming (1 Corinthians 1:7-8; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8; 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10), which won't occur until Revelation 19:7 to 20:6, "immediately after" the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8), which is when the rapture (the gathering together) of the church will occur (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).

    The mistaken pre-tribulation rapture view feels that 1 Thessalonians 5:2 supports the idea of an imminent, pre-tribulation, secret coming of Jesus to rapture the church and begin the tribulation. But not all thieves in the night come secretly, like cat burglars. Some like to rob homes via what is called a home invasion, which is quite obvious and can involve the thieves not only stealing, but also killing and destroying (John 10:10; 2 Thessalonians 1:8-10, Revelation 19:7-21).

    Jesus' coming as a thief in the night (1 Thessalonians 5:2, Matthew 24:43-44, Revelation 16:15) doesn't mean that he will come secretly. "For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God" (1 Thessalonians 4:16), "with a great sound of a trumpet" (Matthew 24:31). And "as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be" (Matthew 24:27,43,44). "Behold, I come as a thief" (Revelation 16:15), "Behold, he cometh with clouds [1 Thessalonians 4:17]; and every eye shall see him" (Revelation 1:7).

    Jesus' 2nd coming as a thief in the night (1 Thessalonians 5:2) means that he will come the 2nd time even upon Christians when they aren't expecting him only if they stop watching (staying awake, spiritually) during the tribulation. Compare the if principle of Revelation 3:3. Also, some in the church will still be alive on the earth during the tribulation's final stage, still waiting for Jesus' 2nd coming as a thief (Revelation 16:15). So his 2nd coming won't overtake them like a thief (1 Thessalonians 5:4, Matthew 24:43).

    Regarding Jesus 2nd coming as a thief to the unsaved world, when it isn't expecting him (1 Thessalonians 5:2-4, Matthew 24:39), nothing requires that the unsaved world will be expecting Jesus' 2nd coming after the tribulation. For during the tribulation, the unsaved world could come to believe that his 2nd coming has already happened (Matthew 24:24-26).

    That is, the unsaved people of the world will have no idea most of them are going to be killed at Jesus' 2nd coming until it happens (Matthew 24:37-39). For they could think the 2nd coming had already occurred with the coming into power of the Antichrist's miracle-working False Prophet (Revelation 13:13-14, Revelation 19:20), who could claim to be Jesus returned. And just as the people of the world shortly before Noah's flood, even though they could see or hear about Noah building his huge ark, no doubt rejected the idea that YHWH had the power to actually cause a global flood which would kill them, so the people of the world at the end of the future tribulation could reject the idea that YHWH has the power to actually defeat them.

    For during the tribulation's 2nd half the world will see the power of Lucifer (Satan, the dragon) and his fallen angels (Revelation 12:9), and the power Lucifer will give to the Antichrist to take over the entire earth (Revelation 13:4-8) and to utterly revile YHWH year after year without being destroyed (Revelation 13:5-6, Daniel 11:36), and to physically overcome and kill people in the church in every nation (Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13). And the world will see the amazing miraculous powers that Lucifer will give to the Antichrist's False Prophet, by which he will be able to even call fire down from heaven in the sight of everyone (Revelation 13:13, cf. 2 Thessalonians 2:9).

    And near the end of the future tribulation the world will see the Antichrist's defeat of YHWH's amazingly-powerful two witnesses (Revelation 11:3-9), after which defeat the world will rejoice and make merry and send gifts to each other because the two witnesses had been sending plagues on the world (Revelation 11:10,6). And even though those plagues will be shortly followed by even more plagues from YHWH, poured out directly from heaven (Revelation 16, the tribulation's final stage), the people of the world won't lose their confidence that YHWH can still be defeated. For after almost all the plagues from heaven are over, the world will see the awesome miraculous powers of some unclean spirits, convincing the world's armies to gather together for a battle against YHWH (Revelation 16:13-14, Revelation 19:19). And so the world could come to that battle at the very end of the tribulation with the same careless attitude as some people at the start of the American Civil War, who held picnics at the expected first battleground of Bull Run/Manassas to watch the battle and what they expected to be a quick and easy victory.

    *******

    In Matthew 24:48-51 the evil servant became evil and was surprised by the Lord's return because when the Lord didn't return sometime before or during the tribulation, the evil servant thought the Lord was indefinitely "delaying" his return (Matthew 24:48). But in fact the Lord's return won't be delayed at all, but will occur "immediately after the tribulation" (Matthew 24:29-31). Also, even when believers know this truth, they still need to live each day knowing that any of them could die at any time (Luke 12:20, James 4:14).
     
  13. Bible2

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    Matthew 24:36,42,44 refers to Jesus' 2nd coming (Matthew 24:37,42,44), which Jesus had just finished saying won't happen until immediately after the tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31). So in Matthew 24:42,44, Jesus can mean that only if believers don't watch (stay awake, spiritually) during the tribulation, the 2nd coming will happen at an hour they don't know/think not (cf. the if principle of Revelation 3:3b). In the context of Matthew 24:36,42,44, Jesus suggests that it is possible for believers to know when the 2nd coming will occur and to watch for it (Matthew 24:43-44a; 1 Thessalonians 5:4).

    Also, Jesus says "of that day and hour knoweth no man" (Matthew 24:36), he doesn't say "of that day and hour no man will know". So it's possible that at a certain point in our future, some believers will come to know the date (as in the year, month, and day) of the 2nd coming before it happens. Also, if we mistakenly think that Jesus can come today or tomorrow (as is sometimes claimed by the pre-tribulation and symbolicist views), then how can we also claim that he will come when nobody thinks he will (Matthew 24:44)?

    Also, compare the following: "of that day and hour knoweth no man" (Matthew 24:36), "the things of God knoweth no man" (1 Corinthians 2:11). If we claim the first verse means no man will ever know the date of the 2nd coming until it happens, then to be consistent we would have to also claim the 2nd verse means no man, not even believers, can know the things of God until the 2nd coming. But who would say that? For the Holy Spirit can currently reveal to believers the things of God (1 Corinthians 2:12-13). He can currently guide them into all truth and show them what will happen in the future (John 16:13), including the date of the 2nd coming. For, again, Jesus suggests that it is possible for believers to know when the 2nd coming will occur and to watch for it (Matthew 24:43-44a; 1 Thessalonians 5:4). Also, what Amos 3:7 says would include the 2nd coming: Surely God the Father won't send Jesus back without having first revealed to some believers the secret of the date of the 2nd coming.

    Jesus could return on the 1,335th day after the abomination of desolation (possibly a standing, android image of the Antichrist) is set up in a 3rd Jewish temple (Daniel 12:11-12, Revelation 16:15, Daniel 11:31,36, Matthew 24:15).
     
  14. Dale

    Dale Senior Veteran Supporter

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    [FONT=Times New Roman, serif]NJBeliever:[/FONT]
    [FONT=Times New Roman, serif]<< So again, even the heathen KNOW Jesus is coming. >>[/FONT]



    [FONT=Times New Roman, serif]I have several questions about this. [/FONT]



    [FONT=Times New Roman, serif]To continue the scriptural reply:[/FONT]



    [FONT=Times New Roman, serif]23 At that time if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Messiah!’ or, ‘There he is!’ do not believe it. 24 For false messiahs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect.25 See, I have told you ahead of time.[/FONT]
    [FONT=Times New Roman, serif]26 “So if anyone tells you, ‘There he is, out in the wilderness,’ do not go out; or, ‘Here he is, in the inner rooms,’ do not believe it. 27 For as lightning that comes from the east is visible even in the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man.[/FONT]
    [FONT=Times New Roman, serif]--Matthew 24:23-27 NIV[/FONT]



    [FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Here Jesus makes it clear that the end times will not be a time of certainty but of confusion, rumors, misinformation, of false hope, false teachings, and false messiahs. This is very different from saying that even unbelievers and heathens will be able to discern the signs of the times.[/FONT]



    [FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Another question I have is logical. If unbelievers and heathens can see what is coming, why don't they repent?[/FONT]



    [FONT=Times New Roman, serif]*[/FONT]



    [FONT=Times New Roman, serif]*[/FONT]
     
    Last edited: Feb 18, 2014
  15. Dale

    Dale Senior Veteran Supporter

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    [FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Bible2 in post #12:[/FONT]
    [FONT=Times New Roman, serif]<< Jesus won't return and gather together (rapture) the church until sometime after there's a falling away (an apostasy) in the church … >>[/FONT]



    [FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Isn't there already a falling away? Hasn't society gotten less and less concerned about what God wants? Isn't there massive confusion about what the church stands for?[/FONT]



    [FONT=Times New Roman, serif]<< [/FONT]And even though those plagues will be shortly followed by even more plagues from YHWH, poured out directly from heaven (Revelation 16, the tribulation's final stage), the people of the world won't lose their confidence that YHWH can still be defeated. For after almost all the plagues from heaven are over, the world will see the awesome miraculous powers of some unclean spirits, convincing the world's armies to gather together for a battle against YHWH (Revelation 16:13-14, Revelation 19:19). [FONT=Times New Roman, serif] >>[/FONT]



    [FONT=Times New Roman, serif]You are going beyond what the text of Revelation says about the gathering of the armies. Revelation doesn't say how the frog-like demons gather the armies, it just says that they somehow do so.[/FONT]



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  16. NJBeliever

    NJBeliever Newbie

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    Dale- once again, your position is illogical on its face. Why? Because you keep claiming nobody will know when Christ returns but are IGNORING the very clear time limits given by Scripture. This is precisely what I predicted. All your arguments are irrelevant to my simple point.

    We KNOW for a fact that the Antichrist will rule for 1260 days. Thus we know precisely when Christ will return. This is from the most basic reading if the text. So ANYBODY who is slightly familiar with Revelation, Christian or not, WILL KNOW. This is abundantly obvious. You are forced to just ignore this in your response.

    Additionally, you are ignoring the FACT that the Antichrist, False prophet and Dragon all prepare and recruit the leaders if the world to battle The Lord. They KNOW he's coming. A river SUPERNATURALLY dries up to allow their passage. In Revelation 19 when The Lord fights it's against the Beast AND his armies. No one's caught off guard at all. Your points about people reading the news today, etc. have zero relevance. Scripture tells us DEMONIC SPIRITS do the recruiting not the local newsman.

    So clearly any believer who is familiar with Revelation will know. The enemies of God KNOW. Your model completely fails here.

    You twist Scripture by saying people will not know the trumpet, bowl judgments etc., are the end times. Read the 6th seal of Revelation 6. Everybody knows it is the wrath of God and The Lamb. The heathens know it's Divine judgment. In Revelation's later judgments, people curse The Lord in anger. They KNOW it's God doing this. Again this is abundantly obvious from a plain reading of the text but you mangle Scripture just to try and force it into your erroneous rapture model.

    Here are some other judgments: 1/3 of all trees, plants and grass destroyed. 1/3 of humanity killed, ALL WATER IN THE WORLD turned to blood- and you claim no one's going to notice? Wow. Again, you are contradicting Scripture because instead of just reading it and adjusting your thinking to the Bible, you are forcing the bible into your post trib model.

    All the verses you cite about Jesus coming as a thief just show that you cannot reconcile those verses with your end times interpretation. You should really consider this rather than just continuing with the same line of reasoning.
     
  17. NJBeliever

    NJBeliever Newbie

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    Yes, there will be false Messiahs. And particularly one- The Antichtist. And he will rule for 1260 days. So anyone reading Matthew 24 can just turn to Revelation and know EXACTLY when Jesus will destroy him. No confusion. The Lord never says people will be confused here. His point is that certain people will be LYING about who the Messiah is. And Jesus warns in advance so believers are not deceived. This is why in the verse right before you quote Jesus says "let no man DECEIVE you." It's a clear warning about intentional lies. And "the lie" is that the Antichrist is god.

    The unbelieving world will know the day because again, the Antichrist tells them. The beast, false prophet and dragon send the demons to recruit the world to Armageddon. Again all this obvious and abundantly clear in the text.

    As for why people don't repent- it's because we are wicked! It's our sinful nature which will be more amplified by the Devil on EArth with his antichrist. The world will be literally worshiping satan openly in the end times. The Lord specifically says He is going to send "strong delusion" that the unbeliever will believe a lie. all these factors will lead to people taking the Mark and preparing to fight The Lord. And yes they KNOW He's coming. In fact they will be waiting for Him.

    Oh and I forgot to mention again -all this (Mark of the Beast, 3 1/2 year reign, etc) has to happen BEFORE the Rapture by your model. So as I said before YOU already know there is no chance Jesus can return tonight of even in the next 3 1/2 years! You are sleeping well.

    Once again, I hope you can see the flaws in your position.
     
    Last edited: Feb 18, 2014
  18. Dale

    Dale Senior Veteran Supporter

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    [FONT=Times New Roman, serif]NJBeliever in post #16:[/FONT]
    [FONT=Times New Roman, serif]<< We KNOW for a fact that the Antichrist will rule for 1260 days. Thus we know precisely when Christ will return. This is from the most basic reading if the text. So ANYBODY who is slightly familiar with Revelation, Christian or not, WILL KNOW. This is abundantly obvious. You are forced to just ignore this in your response. >>[/FONT]



    [FONT=Times New Roman, serif]This might make sense if you study Revelation and ignore the rest of the Bible, including Apocalyptic passages.[/FONT]


    [FONT=Times New Roman, serif]<< Additionally, you are ignoring the FACT that the Antichrist, False prophet and Dragon all prepare and recruit the leaders if the world to battle The Lord. They KNOW he's coming. A river SUPERNATURALLY dries up to allow their passage. In Revelation 19 when The Lord fights it's against the Beast AND his armies. >>[/FONT]


    [FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Can you name any expositor of Scripture who believes this? I've never run into this view before.[/FONT]


    [FONT=Times New Roman, serif]<< Your points about people reading the news today, etc. have zero relevance. Scripture tells us DEMONIC SPIRITS do the recruiting not the local newsman. >>[/FONT]


    [FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Has it occurred to you that demonic spirits may work through your local media?[/FONT]


    [FONT=Times New Roman, serif]<< Here are some other judgments: 1/3 of all trees, plants and grass destroyed. 1/3 of humanity killed, ALL WATER IN THE WORLD turned to blood- and you claim no one's going to notice? Wow. Again, you are contradicting Scripture because instead of just reading it and adjusting your thinking to the Bible, you are forcing the bible into your post trib model. >>[/FONT]



    [FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Whether they notice and what they think causes it are two different things.[/FONT]



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  19. Dale

    Dale Senior Veteran Supporter

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    [FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Several posts in this thread have gone over the matter of believers being awake and watchful for the Day of the Lord. What does this mean?[/FONT]


    [FONT=Times New Roman, serif]What is clear is that the Gospel is not telling us to look for a supernatural event. Expecting a world-shaking event isn't what it is about, although these will come at some point. Even if you believe in a pre-trib Rapture, that isn't what Jesus is telling us to watch for. In fact, you can't watch for it because you can't see it coming.[/FONT]


    [FONT=Times New Roman, serif]What the Gospel is saying is to protect the integrity of your soul against the time of judgment. Steer clear of sexual immorality, false religion and bad teaching. Seek out sound doctrine and solid spiritual teaching.[/FONT]



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  20. Hismessenger

    Hismessenger Senior Member

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    The mistake made in the pre-trib doctrine is that they consider the evil of Satan ln the tribulation. The truth is the church is not to suffer the wrath of God when he brings judgement. This wrath is the basis that the pre-trib is based on when it is totally off the mark.
    If the church is gone, why would Christ say for us to endure to the end if we are removed from the tribulation which is the false understanding of the wrath of God. It is not the wrath of God in the tribulation but rather the wrath of Satan. That is the deception he has played on the religious world. The only ones leaving the earth in the tribulation are the dead who refuse to bow to Satan and are granted to rule with Christ through the millenium. The church does not suffer the wrath of God but it has to endure the wrath of Satan to receive it's reward in eternity. The church suffers the wrath of Satan not God. You must make the connection to see the truth.

    hismessenger
     
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