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Yet Another Reason to Oppose Police Violence: It's Costing Us Millions of Dollars

Discussion in 'News & Current Events (Articles Required)' started by SummerMadness, Apr 25, 2021.

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  1. atpollard

    atpollard Well-Known Member

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    You need to rewatch the video of the arrest from beginning to end; this is an incorrect statement of fact.

    Multiple police officers attempted to place a combative Floyd into a police car before he ran and was tackled to the ground. Had the police been authorized to use lethal force against people violently resisting arrest (or attempting to flee arrest), then there would have been no "excessive force" used in restraining him while awaiting paramedics and the city would have saved the $27 million payment to his family for the civil settlement and $500 million in property damage from the protests resulting from the video.

    I am not advocating this as a policy that should be, merely pointing out the "logical conclusion" of making "justice" all about "lowest financial cost to the city" (the suggested topic in the OP).
     
  2. SummerMadness

    SummerMadness Senior Veteran

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    George Floyd was murdered, his killer was convicted. Do not come on here trying to justify murder. If you want to defend his murder, take it to another thread on that subject. This topic is about police violence and its impact on communities.

    If you are now arguing that the police should be allowed to execute handcuffed individuals. Wow. Not surprising, but I guess some people just don't hide it now.
     
  3. atpollard

    atpollard Well-Known Member

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    No, it is not ...

    ... this topic is about MONEY as a reason to oppose police violence. Read the TITLE of the thread you created if you don't believe me.

    In a now deleted post, you said "Seriously, stay on-topic, the topic is about police violence and the financial cost it places on cities." So I have been addressing the VERY NARROW topic of the "financial cost on cities" of both Police and Criminals (you can't have one without the other).

    I am pointing out the financial costs (the topic of your choosing) and where the absolute lowest cost options are. I have stated that I do not advocate this, see:

    A bullet and a funeral DO "cost less in dollars" than a year of incarceration (or ten years).
    There would be less violent protests if the Law instructed the police to shoot violent criminals that refused to surrender when ordered to do so, so that would reduce the "cost in dollars" to the city from protests.
    A police state is more "cost effective" at reducing crime.

    The point of my posts is not to advocate for a police state, rather it is to cause y'all to question whether the "cost to the city in dollars" is the best way to measure "justice".
     
  4. ThatRobGuy

    ThatRobGuy Part of the IT crowd Supporter

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    That could very well be true...however, the nature of lawsuits in our country (for anything) have trended toward being more costly, and legally speaking, a person can sue for anything.

    For instance, if I try to rob my neighbors house, and the cops catch me, and tackle me, and I claim they hurt my shoulder, there's nothing legally stopping me from filing a large suit against them, even if I didn't win, it still costs taxpayer money for both the court's time, as well as the legal fees of the lawyers for the officer.

    That gets exacerbated especially in cases where the circumstances are very public, and certain attorneys are looking to make a name for themselves.


    I guess the onus would be on the camp suggesting we have a "overly-brutal" police force to use the phrase you mentioned.

    There's no doubt there are some problems, and those problems, per capita, are more prevalent here than in other developed nations...but the flip side of that coin is that police in those other countries aren't having to respond to the same types of calls as frequently as they have to here.

    For instance, I'd be highly shocked if Norwegian police forces had to respond to as many calls pertaining to things like gang-related activities, "armed robbery in progress", etc... as police do here.


    I've long maintained that it'd be an interesting social experiment (although, I don't see it ever happening) to take a police squad from one of these other countries, pay to have them come over here...and let them try our there approach and see if

    A) their methods are effective in a US-style environment
    B) if they make their approach harsher over a period of time after being exposed to it.

    IE:

    Let's bring over the London Metropolitan Police Dept... we'll completely stay out of their way, make sure they have any tools at their disposal that they'd like to have, and give them complete autonomy with regards to how they want to do business...and give them the city of St Louis or Detroit...and we'll see how they do for a few months.
     
  5. SummerMadness

    SummerMadness Senior Veteran

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    Most calls to the police are not related to gang-related activities or armed robberies. Most calls are suspicious persons, trespassing, noise complaints, and other low-level issues. For example, the police responding to the George Floyd call were responding to a counterfeit bill dispute. A few years ago, a professional tennis athlete, James Blake, was tackled and slammed on the ground by a police officer responding to call about credit card fraud. The responses we see in some of these calls leaves much to be desired.

    We need more police interactions like this:

    And you know what, most police interactions go exactly like this, regardless of the race. However, the glaring issue is what happens to the police officers that respond to the community poorly. There should be a system to remove such police officers, but as many DOJ reports have detailed, these systems are either dysfunctional or non-existent. You also have to factor in how some police practices harass the local community and do nothing to curb crime. For instance, the NYPD doing stop-and-frisk of young Black and Hispanic men were not responding to a call about gang activity, they were simply profiling and harassing young teens to the point where young people would simply put their hands on a wall if a police car pulled up. Does this mean there are no police responding to calls about a crime in progress? Of course not, but most phone calls are not of this nature.
     
  6. Wolseley

    Wolseley Beaucoup-Diên-Cai-Dāu

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    Not saying this is how it should be; merely saying that if police disappear, this is how its likely to wind up being..... :(

    PROTECTION (2).jpg
     
    Last edited: Apr 28, 2021
  7. SummerMadness

    SummerMadness Senior Veteran

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    I don't think anyone here is advocating for police to disappear. This represents a false choice: reign in police violence or no police is a ridiculous attitude. It is arguing that police brutality and misconduct are essential, when they are not. Even the defund the police movement is not advocating for police to disappear. There is a police abolition movement, but it is a minority voice and should not be treated as the normative idea. Nonetheless, police abolition also comes with alternatives to the current system.
     
  8. renniks

    renniks Well-Known Member

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    It's ok when dealing with any violent criminal. Who cares what race they are?
     
  9. Wolseley

    Wolseley Beaucoup-Diên-Cai-Dāu

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    If someone is a violent, habitual criminal, and especially if they have engaged in things like murder, domestic abuse, rape, child abuse, or peddling drugs, then it makes absolutely no difference whether they happen to be black, white, red, yellow, brown, green, blue, striped, plaid, or polka-dotted.

    But we have got to get past this idea that if a violent criminal with a list of outstanding warrants a mile long skips bail, attacks somebody with a knife, and gets killed by a cop---and he's white, then he deserves everything he gets; but if a violent criminal with a list of outstanding warrants a mile long skips bail and attacks somebody with a knife, and is killed by a cop---and he's black, then he's a victim of the system of racist oppression and is a hero martyr for the cause of civil rights, etc., etc., etc., etc., ad infinitum et nauseam et absurdum. That's nonsense. A criminal is a criminal; his color is completely irrelevant.
     
  10. renniks

    renniks Well-Known Member

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    Exactly.
     
  11. Old Lady

    Old Lady ...yet not I, but the grace of God that is with me Supporter

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    There are many people who don't call police for many reasons. I'm glad God protected you.

    My disabled father was robbed at gun point one night and my 4'10" stepmother who always wore high heels chased a purse snatcher who robbed her. He got away. I'm sure they phoned police but I never followed up to learn the outcome. That was before cell phones.
     
  12. variant

    variant Happy Cat

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    First Are you saying that it's necessary to be more brutal with gang related violence? I don't think that is actually true. Why do you think so?

    On the contrary our police brutality complaints are not in any way shape or form limited to gang violence.

    Policing simply needs to be better, and the non direct costs of it are much higher than any lawsuit.
     
  13. SummerMadness

    SummerMadness Senior Veteran

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    There are many occasions when people affected by police violence and harassment are not violent or criminals. The NYPD's stop-and-frisk program had a low hit rate and was found to be racially biased.

    When we look at practices in the Baltimore Police Department:
    Or maybe we can talk about the Chicago Police Department:
    I could go through all the DOJ reports and you'll see a consistent pattern. When police officers are also on the receiving end of this violence, why is anyone arguing that there is no problem:
    The popular argument is that there are more interactions with police because of crime statistics, but when controlling for factors like crime, income, etc., racial bias is still seen. Meaning that the statistics we're seeing for arrests and violence do not account for the actual level of crime.
     
  14. Avniel

    Avniel Doing my part each day by being the best me

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    Do police have the legal authority to label an individual as criminal or social deviant? Only savages label people criminals void court binding conviction. Does the constitution mean anything or is it just nonsense?
     
  15. atpollard

    atpollard Well-Known Member

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    No, the Courts do when they issue "arrest warrants", often for a parole violation for a prior "conviction". That made the person shooting at the police or fleeing in a car a "violent criminal".

    It is sort of like a lock ... it only means something to honest people.
    Burglars and Serial killers do not respect your Constitutional Rights.
     
  16. Avniel

    Avniel Doing my part each day by being the best me

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    So do police have the authority to label an individual as a burglar or do a jury of one’s peers?

    Is an arrest warrant proof of social deviancy and or crime?
     
  17. Wolseley

    Wolseley Beaucoup-Diên-Cai-Dāu

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    Sure. It's called a "rap sheet".

    If you're apprehended in the course of committing burglary, I'd say that pretty much labels you as a burglar, n'est ce pas?

    You really need to have this explained to you?
     
  18. SummerMadness

    SummerMadness Senior Veteran

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    The Constitution deals with the government respecting individual rights, what on earth are you talking about? And for that matter, what law are you quoting that an arrest warrant makes someone a violent criminal?
     
  19. SummerMadness

    SummerMadness Senior Veteran

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    You actually do need to explain yourself, an arrest warrant is not proof of anything. Do you understand the concept of due process?
     
  20. Wolseley

    Wolseley Beaucoup-Diên-Cai-Dāu

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    Absolutely. I got my law license from the same school you did. :)
     
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