Hi Terri & Yeshuaskin,
Because your post is so long, I only kept what I felt were the most salient points of the discussion.
Terri,
That sounds like a judgement call.
It may very well be. But Scripture doesn't forbid us from judging anything, if the judgment made is according to righteous judgment.
I'm not going to deny there is pride in the movement but do you throw out the Church because it is full of problems?
Of course not, but you are supposed to root out the pride, not just leave it sit there. So if there is pride in the movement, you have to ask yourself what the cause of it is and deal with it. Is the pride caused by their "Jewishness," or some other reason?
I am a Christian, so is my husband, but because that term carries a lot of negative conotations for non-believing Jews, we don't use the term.
The term "Jew" carries with it a lot of negative connotations too both in biblical times and even today, but you sure seem not to have a problem using that term, now do you? Seems to me like there's a double standard going on here.
It just means, "little messiah".
No, it doesn't. It means "belonging to Christ."
For us, it really comes to identifying with a people that do not identify with the Church and Christianity at all. I actually quit calling myself a Christian way back in Bible College days when one of my customers at Shoney's where I waitressed asked me what religion I practiced. I replied, "I'm a Christian" As he walked out the door, he flippantly and cynically replied "what does that really mean anyway?" I rarely used that term after that but used the term, follower of Jesus.
The way you combat the negative connotations in that name is to live as a Christian should, so that people will know what a Christian truly is. But again, it seems you have a double standard. You don't want me to throw out the movement because of a few problems, but you're willing to throw out the name Christian simply for the same reason.
Bottom line, we don't call ourselves messianics to lift ourselves above others.
Perhaps not, but you do call yourselves "messianic" to in order to make a distinction between yourselves and Christians.
Yet the Church picks out nine of the ten commandments and follows those?
No one picked nine of the commandments to leave out the other. It was the Lord, through inspiration of the Spirit, who made the distinction as to which of the Mosaic laws would be incorporated into the life of the new covenant. That's why you won't find the apostles requiring any of the believers, Jewish or not, to observe the sabbath, because the Holy Spirit did not compel them to do so. They were compelled, however, to teach against adultery, idolatry, coveteousness, stealing, etc.
Come on, not all of the commandments apply anymore.
And which ones do you say do apply?
The Church follows the moral law but not the cermonial laws. And that's fine, but for the "circumcised" Jewish believers, Paul said this in 1 Corinthians 7:20: "Each person should remain in the condition he was in when he was called." He never told Jewish believers to stop following the law themselves...
You are right, but there is one big difference between then and now: then, they were able to observe all the law; today, you are not. For instance, we find Paul making animal offerings in Acts 21. Are you able to do that today? No, you cannot. At least not anymore after AD 70. The destruction of the temple should tell you something...that God is done with that system of worship. Even when it comes to Passover, can you say the Jews prepare the lamb according to how God commanded it? No. So what sense does it make in trying to give the appearance that you keep the law of Moses, when you know very well you are unable to keep it in the manner which God commanded? Did God give you permission to observe the Mosaic laws any other way than that which he commanded? I doubt it. So once again, according to the word of the Lord himself, if you're going to keep the law of Moses, then by all means you had better keep it all.
Yet how much Jewish culture and history is taught? Jew wrote the book and there are many nuances and idioms that have been lost over the years. The messianic movement is restoring that lost Jewish perspective but for me it has taken a lot of humility and prayer to stay with it and really appreciate it.
Any good Bible college or church can adequately teach ancient Jewish culture and mannerisms, not to mention the idioms used by Jews in biblical times. To say that the "Jewish" perspective has been lost is an insult to Gentiles. Who do you think has been propagating the truth these past 1900 years in which Jewish believers, for the most part after the first century, have been absent from the churches?
Yeshuaskin,
144,000 of Messianic Jews are going to turn the world upside down when the tribulation is in full swing. Moses and Eljiah will be the two witnesses that will amaze the world in the tribulation.
This does not seem to me to be a "new" religion a new covenant people.
You seem to be taking certain passages of Revelation quite literally when in fact they are figurative. The 144,000 are interpreted by John himself to be the redeemed of all the earth (14:4). Moses and Elijah are not said to be the two witnesses, though their deeds remind us of them. The two witnesses are rather the "two lampstands," and the symbol of lampstands stands for churches, according to Christ's interpretation (1:20). And why wouldn't John allude to things of the Old Testament in order to reveal to us the truths of New Testament prophecy in connection with the church of God? To be honest, I think someone has colored your thinking to rather see everything in terms of "messianic Jewishness."
Christians are grafted in.
No, the Gentiles were grafted in. "Christian" was a term that applied to either Jewish or Gentile believers.
In to what the covenant people of God, the Jews.
Wrong again. Gentiles are grafted into the root, which root is Jesus Christ in the Abrahamic promise, for God promised that through his seed "all the kindreds of the earth shall be blessed." The blessing of Abraham is the forgiveness of sins through Christ (Acts 3:25-26). Now Paul, in Romans, makes it clear that the Jews are not the root, and neither is the root their "faith," but they are rather the natural branches growing out of the root. Your interepretation, therefore, seems a bit skewed.
I could probably go on for a very long time. But God says the His covenant with Israel is eternal.
The verses you quoted, particularly the one in psalms, has reference to the Abrahamic covenant. As I have shown above, it was not to Israel alone that the promise was made available, but also to all nations, i.e. Gentiles. This is why in the New Testament Jews do not have pre-eminence over Gentiles, and why Gentiles can know just as much truth as the Jew. Yet, the messianic movement would have us to believe that Jewish believers today have some "perspective" about the law and the new covenant that we Gentiles do not, or one that we are in desperate need of. But as I have demonstrated, your perspective has not been entirely biblical, to say the least. If anything, it tends to vaunt your "Jewishness" at the expense of what the Scriptures really say. This is what I find so problematic about the messianic movement.
But God has a covenant with them for their good. He brought them back to the land and at some point in time He will bring a large majority of the Jews during the Tribulation to himself through the saving knowledge of Messiah Jesus.
Amen.
Jesus himself said that not until the heavens and earth pass away not one stroke or dot of the LAW(Torah) would pass away.
In the same passage, Christ specifically said that he came to fulfill the law. If he fulfilled it, then it is indeed passed away. Now, are you saying that Jesus didn't fulfill the law?
I hope I have given you some things to think about. I look forward to your response.
SchracktheBaptist
Because your post is so long, I only kept what I felt were the most salient points of the discussion.
Terri,
That sounds like a judgement call.
It may very well be. But Scripture doesn't forbid us from judging anything, if the judgment made is according to righteous judgment.
I'm not going to deny there is pride in the movement but do you throw out the Church because it is full of problems?
Of course not, but you are supposed to root out the pride, not just leave it sit there. So if there is pride in the movement, you have to ask yourself what the cause of it is and deal with it. Is the pride caused by their "Jewishness," or some other reason?
I am a Christian, so is my husband, but because that term carries a lot of negative conotations for non-believing Jews, we don't use the term.
The term "Jew" carries with it a lot of negative connotations too both in biblical times and even today, but you sure seem not to have a problem using that term, now do you? Seems to me like there's a double standard going on here.
It just means, "little messiah".
No, it doesn't. It means "belonging to Christ."
For us, it really comes to identifying with a people that do not identify with the Church and Christianity at all. I actually quit calling myself a Christian way back in Bible College days when one of my customers at Shoney's where I waitressed asked me what religion I practiced. I replied, "I'm a Christian" As he walked out the door, he flippantly and cynically replied "what does that really mean anyway?" I rarely used that term after that but used the term, follower of Jesus.
The way you combat the negative connotations in that name is to live as a Christian should, so that people will know what a Christian truly is. But again, it seems you have a double standard. You don't want me to throw out the movement because of a few problems, but you're willing to throw out the name Christian simply for the same reason.
Bottom line, we don't call ourselves messianics to lift ourselves above others.
Perhaps not, but you do call yourselves "messianic" to in order to make a distinction between yourselves and Christians.
Yet the Church picks out nine of the ten commandments and follows those?
No one picked nine of the commandments to leave out the other. It was the Lord, through inspiration of the Spirit, who made the distinction as to which of the Mosaic laws would be incorporated into the life of the new covenant. That's why you won't find the apostles requiring any of the believers, Jewish or not, to observe the sabbath, because the Holy Spirit did not compel them to do so. They were compelled, however, to teach against adultery, idolatry, coveteousness, stealing, etc.
Come on, not all of the commandments apply anymore.
And which ones do you say do apply?
The Church follows the moral law but not the cermonial laws. And that's fine, but for the "circumcised" Jewish believers, Paul said this in 1 Corinthians 7:20: "Each person should remain in the condition he was in when he was called." He never told Jewish believers to stop following the law themselves...
You are right, but there is one big difference between then and now: then, they were able to observe all the law; today, you are not. For instance, we find Paul making animal offerings in Acts 21. Are you able to do that today? No, you cannot. At least not anymore after AD 70. The destruction of the temple should tell you something...that God is done with that system of worship. Even when it comes to Passover, can you say the Jews prepare the lamb according to how God commanded it? No. So what sense does it make in trying to give the appearance that you keep the law of Moses, when you know very well you are unable to keep it in the manner which God commanded? Did God give you permission to observe the Mosaic laws any other way than that which he commanded? I doubt it. So once again, according to the word of the Lord himself, if you're going to keep the law of Moses, then by all means you had better keep it all.
Yet how much Jewish culture and history is taught? Jew wrote the book and there are many nuances and idioms that have been lost over the years. The messianic movement is restoring that lost Jewish perspective but for me it has taken a lot of humility and prayer to stay with it and really appreciate it.
Any good Bible college or church can adequately teach ancient Jewish culture and mannerisms, not to mention the idioms used by Jews in biblical times. To say that the "Jewish" perspective has been lost is an insult to Gentiles. Who do you think has been propagating the truth these past 1900 years in which Jewish believers, for the most part after the first century, have been absent from the churches?
Yeshuaskin,
144,000 of Messianic Jews are going to turn the world upside down when the tribulation is in full swing. Moses and Eljiah will be the two witnesses that will amaze the world in the tribulation.
This does not seem to me to be a "new" religion a new covenant people.
You seem to be taking certain passages of Revelation quite literally when in fact they are figurative. The 144,000 are interpreted by John himself to be the redeemed of all the earth (14:4). Moses and Elijah are not said to be the two witnesses, though their deeds remind us of them. The two witnesses are rather the "two lampstands," and the symbol of lampstands stands for churches, according to Christ's interpretation (1:20). And why wouldn't John allude to things of the Old Testament in order to reveal to us the truths of New Testament prophecy in connection with the church of God? To be honest, I think someone has colored your thinking to rather see everything in terms of "messianic Jewishness."
Christians are grafted in.
No, the Gentiles were grafted in. "Christian" was a term that applied to either Jewish or Gentile believers.
In to what the covenant people of God, the Jews.
Wrong again. Gentiles are grafted into the root, which root is Jesus Christ in the Abrahamic promise, for God promised that through his seed "all the kindreds of the earth shall be blessed." The blessing of Abraham is the forgiveness of sins through Christ (Acts 3:25-26). Now Paul, in Romans, makes it clear that the Jews are not the root, and neither is the root their "faith," but they are rather the natural branches growing out of the root. Your interepretation, therefore, seems a bit skewed.
I could probably go on for a very long time. But God says the His covenant with Israel is eternal.
The verses you quoted, particularly the one in psalms, has reference to the Abrahamic covenant. As I have shown above, it was not to Israel alone that the promise was made available, but also to all nations, i.e. Gentiles. This is why in the New Testament Jews do not have pre-eminence over Gentiles, and why Gentiles can know just as much truth as the Jew. Yet, the messianic movement would have us to believe that Jewish believers today have some "perspective" about the law and the new covenant that we Gentiles do not, or one that we are in desperate need of. But as I have demonstrated, your perspective has not been entirely biblical, to say the least. If anything, it tends to vaunt your "Jewishness" at the expense of what the Scriptures really say. This is what I find so problematic about the messianic movement.
But God has a covenant with them for their good. He brought them back to the land and at some point in time He will bring a large majority of the Jews during the Tribulation to himself through the saving knowledge of Messiah Jesus.
Amen.
Jesus himself said that not until the heavens and earth pass away not one stroke or dot of the LAW(Torah) would pass away.
In the same passage, Christ specifically said that he came to fulfill the law. If he fulfilled it, then it is indeed passed away. Now, are you saying that Jesus didn't fulfill the law?
I hope I have given you some things to think about. I look forward to your response.
SchracktheBaptist
