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YES, the Bible DOES Preach THE PRE-TRIB RAPTURE!!

Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum' started by SackLunch, Jul 25, 2005.

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  1. Big Mouth Nana

    Big Mouth Nana Post Tribulationist

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    There is not a rapture at all, but a second coming where the dead in Christ are raised, and we who are left are changed in the twinkling of an eye......is this what you meant? It's what I meant..no rapture...second coming ONLY.
     
  2. CrossWord

    CrossWord Member

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    The following isn't all that well written, but everything's there. There's hardly any point in sprucing it up because long after I'm gone, BigMouth and the army of Rapture Deniers will still be here, every hour of every day, day in and day out, month in and month out, fullfilling their life's calling making sure no one believes in a pretrib rapture.

    BMN, you have to examine everything after Mat 24:31 as well. Its all part of the Olivet discourse. The next thirty-three verses reinforce one theme: The coming of the Lord will be sudden and largely unexpected - to those who are not prepared. This is NOT how Jesus describes it in Matthew 24_29-31. That coming is preceded by tribulation, the sun and moon being darkened, etc. However, in 24:37-39, Christ says the following:

    (Mat 24:37-39 NKJV) "But as the days of Noah were, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. For as in the days before the flood, they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, and did not know until the flood came and took them all away, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be.

    Were people "eating and drinking" immediately prior to Mat 24:30? NO. So do we have two "comings"? That's not the correct way to look at it, actually. Christ is treating both the actual coming (in 29-31) plus the period of wrath and tribulation preceding it together as "the coming of the Son of Man". That is why Christ can say that the coming of the Lord is by surprise, but then in Matthew 24:29-31, the actual event is preceded by horrendous unmistakeable signs. The whole period of his "coming" starts much earlier, and starts suddenly.

    BMN, I ask you, what sudden event do you think might mark the inception of "The coming of the Lord." (i.e. the beginning of Daniel's seventieth week.)

    In the Old Testament "the Day of the Lord" never refers to a single day, but a process extending over a period of time.

    (Nahum 1:5-8 NKJV) The mountains quake before Him, The hills melt, And the earth heaves at His presence, Yes, the world and all who dwell in it. Who can stand before His indignation? And who can endure the fierceness of His anger? His fury is poured out like fire, And the rocks are thrown down by Him. The LORD is good, A stronghold in the day of trouble; And He knows those who trust in Him. But with an overflowing flood He will make an utter end of its place, And darkness will pursue His enemies.

    (Zep 1:14-2:3 NKJV) The great day of the LORD is near; It is near and hastens quickly. The noise of the day of the LORD is bitter; There the mighty men shall cry out. That day is a day of wrath, A day of trouble and distress, A day of devastation and desolation, A day of darkness and gloominess, A day of clouds and thick darkness, A day of trumpet and alarm Against the fortified cities And against the high towers.I will bring distress upon men, And they shall walk like blind men, Because they have sinned against the LORD; Their blood shall be poured out like dust, And their flesh like refuse. Neither their silver nor their gold Shall be able to deliver them In the day of the Lord's wrath; But the whole land shall be devoured By the fire of His jealousy, For He will make speedy riddance Of all those who dwell in the land. Gather yourselves together, yes, gather together, O undesirable nation, Before the decree is issued, Or the day passes like chaff, Before the Lord's fierce anger comes upon you, Before the day of the Lord's anger comes upon you! Seek the LORD, all you meek of the earth, Who have upheld His justice. Seek righteousness, seek humility. It may be that you will be hidden In the day of the Lord's anger.

    So, to go back to Matthew 24, "the coming of the Lord" encompasses the actual event, plus the preceding period of wrath and tribulation.

    If the coming of the Lord extends over a period of time, then why can't the gathering of the Church as well? Matthew 24:31 says the church is gathered from one end of heaven to another. Mark adds "from earth" as well. So, at the seventh trumpet believers are being gathered from both heaven and earth (i.e. some believers are already in heaven).

    (2 Th 2:3-7 NKJV) Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God. Do you not remember that when I was still with you I told you these things? And now you know what is restraining, that he may be revealed in his own time. For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way.

    Who is taken out of the way? If not the Holy Spirit, then what? Do all believers "fall away" That is not what the parable of the wise and foolish servants indicates (see below). Some servants are ready when the Lord comes. If the wise servants have not fallen away, are they subjected to the same judgment as the foolish servants?

    BMN, you might respond that some believers are spared during the tribulation, but that they don't actually leave the earth. Will those who escape the tribulation, or the Day of the Lord, do so merely by their own wits? Noah did prepare, but his deliverance was SUPERNATURAL. The Children of Israel's deliverance through the Crossing of the Red Sea was SUPERNATURAL.

    Look at the parables following Mat 24:31. In the parable of the wise and foolish servants, all of the servants call Jesus their "master" but it is the foolish servants who are beating their fellow servants and eating and drinking with the drunkards when the Lord comes. Once again, this CANNOT be referring to the "coming" of Mat 24:29-31. It is the foolish servants who are subjected to weeping and gnashing of teeth, not the wise ones. The foolish servants are still servants of the Lord. Will they be assigned to wrath or eternal torment? NO. Then what? The great tribulation. If the wise servants are not subjected to the tribulation on earth, where are they?

    Now the next parable following 24:31 - the wise and foolish virgins. ALL of them are waiting for the "bridegroom". All of them are of the elect. When the door is closed to the foolish virgins, does it mean they're going to Hell??? NO. Then what??? They are left behind at the initial rapture and must endure the tribulation, BUT NOT wrath, i.e. they are GONE after the last trumpet.

    If you go to Revelation, Christ tells one of the seven churches (the Thyratiran Church) he will subject them to "great tribulation." However, to the Philadelphians he says (as I have often mentioned), that they are to be spared the hour of trial to come on the whole earth. Can this possibly mean that the Philadelphian Church will have to go through a horrific tribulation, (but spared "Wrath")? I don' think so.

    BMN, in your scenario, there is only one dividing line - the seventh trumpet. If the foolish servants and foolish virgins are subjected to what comes after the seventh trumpet, then it means judgment and eternal separation from God. That cannot possibly mean what those parables are referring to. Both you and I admit there will be believers on earth during the tribulation, prior to the seventh trumpet. Why cannot THAT be what the foolish virgins, etc are subjected to??? Then if the wise virgins are not subjected to it, it means they are gone.

    As stated repeatedly, the coming of the Lord begins with a sudden unexpected event. Would the Bible be spelling out for the entire world what the precise nature of that event is? Or would it be revealed only to those of his servants who had studied the scripture diligently. Christ taught in parables all the time, and stated the reason he did so - to conceal the truth from scoffers and unbelievers. The coming of the Lord is like a thief in the night, but not a thief in the night that lasts seven years. The inception of the seven years is what is sudden and unexpected, and I think that event is a pretrib rapture for those believers who are "prepared". Like you, I think ALL believers are gone by the seventh trumpet.

    (Rev 22:19 NKJV) and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part from the Book of Life, from the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

     
  3. Tishri1

    Tishri1 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Teki'ah Gedolah is not the Last Trumpet... it is the Hebrew word for "The Great (Gedolah) Trumpet" which sounds at Yom Kippur The day Messiah sets up his reign here on Earth...The Last Trump Comes first, then the Great Trump comes after that...I still enjoyed your article it is well written except for that one mistranslation that's all, and it says the same thing I was saying
    1 RoshHaShannah is the rapture and begins the Tribulation/Days Of Awe The Day the Last Shofar (Trumpet)is blown
    2 YomKippur is the Day of Atonememnt when the Great Shofar(Trumpet) is blown and Jesus(and all who were raptured) will return and those who repented during the Trib will be separated from those who would not repent(sheep and goats).This Ends the Days of Awe/Tribulation

    http://members.aol.com/zimlechem/trump.html

     
  4. Tishri1

    Tishri1 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    I don't see a "Last" or a "Great" here so all I know to look for is that this verse has nothing to do with Rapture/Resurection and the Last Trumpet/Shofar does have everything to do with Rapture so it is not the Last Trumpet.....
    Now this Verse has mentioned the Last Trump so I know it is the Rapture/Resurection Shofar but there is still another blast to go much later....It is The Great Trump that follows the Last Trump on YomKippur
    Here it is the Great Trump on Yom Kippur and the End of the Trib:clap::clap::clap:...Those other blasts and Trumpets have to do with plagues and God's wrath yes, but are not the Last or Great Trump....those are definately refering to two distinct days ,Rosh Hashannah and Yom Kippur. The Beginning and the End of the "Days of Awe"/"Tribulation"
     
  5. FreeinChrist

    FreeinChrist CF Advisory team Staff Member Site Advisor Supporter

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    BMN, this is what I was conveying before. Rosh Hashana is the more modern name of the Feast of the Trumpets. The Feast was renamed Rosh Hashana (New Year) later on because of the tradition that God created the world in that month. The Feast of the Trumpets is the first 2 days of the 10 days of Awe, and a trumpet used is specifically called the Last Shofar. So what you end up with is :
    The Feast of the Trumpets (with Rosh Hashana) for 2 days....7 days of judgement, and then the Day of Atonement, which is associated with the coming of the King (Messiah).

    Paul would have known of the "Last Shofar" of the Feast of the Trumpets, as would have the Thessalonian Jewish converts. So they would have known what he was talking about. They wouldn't have known about the 7 trumpets of Revelation. The 7th trumpet isn't the Last Shofar.



    Rev 10:5 Then the angel whom I saw standing on the sea and on the land lifted up his right hand to heaven,

    Rev 10:6 and swore by Him who lives forever and ever, WHO CREATED HEAVEN AND THE THINGS IN IT, AND THE EARTH AND THE THINGS IN IT, AND THE SEA AND THE THINGS IN IT, that there will be delay no longer,

    Rev 10:7 but in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he is about to sound, then the mystery of God is finished, as He preached to His servants the prophets.
    This isn't the Second Coming. This is an announcement that the mystery, that was preached to His servants the prophets, is finished - there will be no doubt as to who the AC is and who God is. Man has made or must make the choice.
     
  6. FreeinChrist

    FreeinChrist CF Advisory team Staff Member Site Advisor Supporter

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    Yep! :thumbsup:
    The Last Shofar is with the Rapture. The Great Shofar is with Yom Kippur - the Day of Atonement.
     
  7. Big Mouth Nana

    Big Mouth Nana Post Tribulationist

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    Couldn't have said it better crossword. I refuse to acknowledge an untruth.

    Definately unexpected...by those who are waiting for the rapture, and they aren't prepared to face the tribulation.....as well as the lost. Now that will definately be a thief in the night experiance!

    (Mat 24:37-39 NKJV) "But as the days of Noah were, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. For as in the days before the flood, they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, and did not know until the flood came and took them all away, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be.

    WHAT!!!??? The preceeding verses have nothing to do with if people were eating before verse 30. The Second Coming happens in Matt 24:30. It doesn't say that we won't be eating during the tribulation. If God can have a rat bring a stranded missionary a sweet potato through his rat hole for 2 weeks, He can darn sure provide for His church. Sweet potatoes have every known nutrient in them known to man...but anyway..........

    All of the tribulation, right up to when the 2nd woe is passed. Taken out right after that before the wrath hits.

    Where is that written in stone? According to these verses, it doesn't say that at all. The DAY of the Lord is the DAY of the Lord. Don't you believe that the Lord can accomplish all of these things in One day? It only took Him 6 days to create the heavens and the earth. If it wasn't The DAY of the Lord, the bible would have said the WEEK of The Lord, or THE MONTH oF THE LORD etc.

    Nope. The coming of the Lord encompasses the tribulation, and then the coming of the Lord, then the wrath.
    I don't deal in "what if's". I would have to say that in a "twinkling of an eye" is pretty darn fast, wouldn't you? It amazes me that Christians limit God on what he can accomplish in a short time. Can you measure the exact amount of time that it took your Spirit to be regenerated? Since God created sleep, can you pin point the exact time that you actually went to sleep? NO. I've tried it ^_^ . I can look at the clock before I go to sleep, but after that...darkness.

    This is one of the most misunderstood verses that pre-tribbers like to hold on to. Just because it says that he be taken out of the way, does not constitute the Holy Spirit and the church being removed from the earth. Being taken out of the way could very well mean that He steps out of the way so the antichrist can be revealed. By the way, who is he going to be revealed to crossword? Certainly not the Jews. It's the church of course.

    No, not all believers fall away. God will always have a people. The wise servants are going through the tribulation.

    The Day of the Lord is not the tribulation. It is the wrath of God. The wrath of God is "finito" for anyone left on this planet. Oh, you don't believe that God can use the SUPERNATURAL for His church, but yet He did in other instances in the bible? Limiting God again crossword.

    When we are taken out at the 7th trumpet, the wrath starts. The foolish servants are staying for that...thus they are thrown into outter darkness. The wise servants are going in the Second coming in Rev 10:7.

    YES!!!! The key words there are..the door is closed. Once the age of grace ends for the Gentiles, God is going to turn to Israel again during the tribulation.
    If God said that the church of Thyratira will be subjected to tribulation, then that is exactly what He means. The church of Philidelphia will be spared. God said it. I believe it. Spared is not removed. I made a statement awhile back in one of my posts that I want to rescend. I stated that the remnant would be leaving with the church. I have changed my stance regarding that. I believe that the remnant are going to be beheaded, and their souls will go to God for the marriage supper. It says...Rev 12:11 ~ And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death. The preceeding verses before that talk about the woman in the wilderness being fed. I believe that is Israel. The last verse talks about the remnant of her seed....Jacob and Judah
    Exactly. That door was closed.The church will be on the earth during the tribulation and so will the seed of Jacob and Judah. The foolish virgins and servant are going to die. They had their chance. You notice that it calls them foolish servants and foolish virgins? Evidently they were once enlightened, but fell away.
    There will be people on the earth, and God is going to hide them...Isaiah 26:19-21 ~ Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead. (resurrection & Second Coming)
    20 Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: HIDE THYSELF as it were for a little moment, until the indignation be overpast.21 For, behold, the LORD cometh out of his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity: the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain.

    Yeah, the tribulation. Uh, like a thief in the night...NOT a thief in the night. That just means that we do not know the day nor the hour of His coming...BUT we can know the general time frame from the signs listed in Matt 24 and Luke 21. Ah, to bad...another one lost to the pre-trib myth. Like your adding to/taking away scripture. I totally agree with it 100%.
     
  8. yeshuasavedme

    yeshuasavedme Senior Veteran

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    Hello Dave,
    I think you are addressing me -?
    Yes, they are 'laqach' before the LORD comes to judge the inhabitants of the earth, as Psalm 75:2,3, states.

    Psa 75:2 When I shall receive [laqach] the congregation I will judge uprightly.
    Psa 75:3 The earth and all the inhabitants thereof are dissolved: I bear up the pillars of it. Selah.
    The word dissolved is AV - melt 5, dissolve 4, faint 3, melt away 2, consumed 1, fainthearted ... and note: all the inhabitants are in that consumation, that fainting, when the LORD comes out f His place to punish the inhabitants of the earth.
    The 'laqach' Church is taken out, off, away, from the earth and is not inhabiting the earth at that time -as Jesus promised.

    If one doesn't believe it is speaking of the pre-trib 'laqach', then there is a major problem, cause the dead in Christ, 'Thy dead' are raised first, with Isaiah's 'dead body' (unless the verse is a prophecy of the LORD Jesus' risen body, and Him speaking, that they are gathered to in the 'gathering together' as Paul speaks of...); and then "My people" -both those raised from the dust of the earth, which cast them out, and the rest of 'MY people" are called to 'come...enter into thy chambers and shut thy doors about about thee -until the indignation be overpast'

    Isa 26:19 Thy dead [men] shall live, [together with] my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew [is as] the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead.

    Isa 26:20 Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation be overpast. [John 14:1-3]

    Isa 26:21 For, behold, the LORD cometh out of his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity: the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain.

    Isa 27:1 In that day the LORD with his sore and great and strong sword shall punish leviathan the piercing serpent, even leviathan that crooked serpent; and he shall slay the dragon that [is] in the sea.

    Also, the rest of Isaiah chapter 27 is about the judgment, and the restoration of Israel -and the gathering of them back to the Covenant land.

    The indignation is spoken of by Jeremiah -who was called to be "a prophet to the nations";
    Jer 10:10 But the LORD [is] the true God, he [is] the living God, and an everlasting king: at his wrath the earth shall tremble, and the nations shall not be able to abide his indignation.

    And Daniel;
    Dan 8:19 And he said, Behold, I will make thee know what shall be in the last end of the indignation: for at the time appointed the end [shall be].

    and Zephaniah;
    Zep 3:8 Therefore wait ye upon me, saith the LORD, until the day that I rise up to the prey: for my determination [is] to gather the nations, that I may assemble the kingdoms, to pour upon them mine indignation, [even] all my fierce anger: for all the earth shall be devoured with the fire of my jealousy.

    And 'today' is the day of repentence in which, if one seeks the LORD, He may be hidden in the day of the LORD'S fierce wrath [hidden within the heavenly temple].

    Zep 2:1 Gather yourselves together, yea, gather together, O nation not desired;
    Zep 2:2 Before the decree bring forth, [before] the day pass as the chaff, before the fierce anger of the LORD come upon you, before the day of the LORD'S anger come upon you. [charown AV - fierce 23, fierceness 9, wrath 6, fury 1, wrathful 1, displeasure 1; 41]

    Zep 2:3 Seek ye the LORD, all ye meek of the earth, which have wrought his judgment; seek righteousness, seek meekness: it may be ye shall be hid in the day of the LORD'S anger ['aph AV - anger 172, wrath ].
     
  9. yeshuasavedme

    yeshuasavedme Senior Veteran

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    It seems to me -and others- that the call to 'gather His people from heaven and from earth' in Psalm 50, is speaking of the same time when He shall come out of His place to judge the inhabitants of the earth -and purge Israel and restore them to Himself, as Isaiah 27 speaks of.

    Psa 50:3 Our God shall come, and shall not keep silence: a fire shall devour before him, and it shall be very tempestuous round about him.

    Psa 50:4 He shall call to the heavens from above, and to the earth, that he may judge his people.

    Psa 50:5 Gather my saints together unto me; those that have made a covenant with me by sacrifice.

    The word gather, in that verse is;

    1) to gather, receive, remove, gather in

    a) (Qal)

    1) to gather, collect

    2) to gather (an individual into company of others)

    3) to bring up the rear

    4) to gather and take away, remove, withdraw

    b) (Niphal)

    1) to assemble, be gathered

    2) (pass of Qal 1a2)

    a) to be gathered to one's fathers

    b) to be brought in or into (association with others)

    3) (pass of Qal 1a4)

    a) to be taken away, removed, perish.

    He speaks of the whole seven year period of the great tribulation as if it is ‘one hour’, in more than one passage, and we who are gathered together to Him in the air with the ‘resurrected’ dead in Christ do get the call to ‘come, My people, enter into your rooms and shut your doors about you -hide yourselves ‘a little while’ until the indignation be overpast.





     
  10. yeshuasavedme

    yeshuasavedme Senior Veteran

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    Hello FreeinChrist and Tishri1,
    I think well of both of you and consider you my sisters in the LORD, but on the trumpets I do disagree -the board is for that airing of these things, though, right? -so.....

    I would like to ask you to look at the silver trumpets that are sounded, twice, to call the entire congregation of the LORD to the door of assembly in Numbers 10:1-7.

    The ram's horn has never been used to call the congregation to the door of assembly and, also, Tishri1; the Atonement is completed on the cross and will never be done again -even in the restored feasts that are memorials to His Person and Work for the thousand year reign (as the Passover is) the Atonement will never, ever, ever, be accepted by any other offering nor will any other offering be offered or called for at any time in any place by the LORD, for the split veil is the sign that that offering was once, for all.

    Moses died as a sign of the sin of 'crucifying Christ twice' when He struck the rock which represented Christ at the end of the Wilderness journey.
    That Rock had been struck once, at the beginning of the journey, and the water came freely for the congregation.
    When they were thirsty at the end of their wandering, Moses was told to 'speak to the rock 'that represented Christ, and He struck it -and could not go into the land of promise as a sign -for He is a prophet and His life is a sign, itself- of the seriousness of 'crucifying Christ twice'.

    When Israel returns to the LORD and mourns for Him, they will take Words -for there is no offering they can bring, He has paid it all.
    Hsa 14:1 O Israel, return unto the LORD thy God; for thou hast fallen by thine iniquity.
    Hsa 14:2 Take with you words, and turn to the LORD: say unto him, Take away all iniquity, and receive [us] graciously: so will we render the calves of our lips.



    Israel Restored at Last
    Hosea 14
    O Israel, return to the Lord your God,
    For you have stumbled because of your iniquity;
    2 Take words with you,
    And return to the Lord.
    Say to Him,
    "Take away all iniquity;
    Receive us graciously,
    For we will offer the sacrifices* of our lips.
    3 Assyria shall not save us,
    We will not ride on horses,
    Nor will we say anymore to the work of our hands, 'You are our gods.'
    For in You the fatherless finds mercy."


    4 "I will heal their backsliding,
    I will love them freely,
    For My anger has turned away from him.
    5 I will be like the dew to Israel;
    He shall grow like the lily,
    And lengthen his roots like Lebanon.
    6 His branches shall spread;
    His beauty shall be like an olive tree,
    And his fragrance like Lebanon.
    7 Those who dwell under his shadow shall return;
    They shall be revived like grain,
    And grow like a vine.
    Their *scent shall be like the wine of Lebanon.


    8 "Ephraim shall say, 'What have I to do anymore with idols?'
    I have heard and observed him.
    I am like a green cypress tree;
    Your fruit is found in Me."


    9 Who is wise?
    Let him understand these things.
    Who is prudent?
    Let him know them.
    For the ways of the Lord are right;
    The righteous walk in them,
    But transgressors stumble in them."

    The Ram's horn's have nothing to do with calling the congregation of the LORD, as I said, and the silver trumpets do -and the last trump of two sounding is the sign that the entire congregation is to assemble at the door of assembly.
    that door is opened in heaven, when we are called, and we gather together to Him in the 'air' and we enter into our 'rooms' at that last trump, of both trumps sounding.

    There is no feast connected to the call to assemble together of the entire congregation anywhere.
    BUt if you've found the LORD calling the congregation to gather together 'at the door '-where we're going- then I will say I'm wrong on this.
     
  11. Tishri1

    Tishri1 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    I understand what you are saying but I am approaching this whole time period the same way the Jews do and after the pattern set forth in the first 4 Feasts...the First four feasts were fulfilled in Jesus in a timely order, nothing was left undone, or unfulfilled, even though Jesus was the sacrifice and there is no question there, his attonement was final, there is still soooooo much more to the festival of Yom Kippur as well as Rosh Hashannah and Sukkot that has not been fulfilled namely the time frame...

    There are two pictures played out in the Fall Feasts....one is peace and safty(the kind of peace this word represents is like a complete peace, the tribulation does not bring peace at all as we know) and the other is like having labor pains (going through it myself, I would say not a peaceful time....more like terrifying)

    During this time there are 3 groups of people
    Two of the three groups are sealed on Rosh Ha Shannah...the Wholly Righteous(inscribed in the book of life), and the wholly wicked(inscribed for Gehenah/Hell)...That is a final complete judgement....

    Now we believe that those who are Righteous will never suffer during this time and are removed from the scene...

    Of course the wicked will stay...

    but what of the third group? who are they and what happens to them?

    THAT is a HUGE reason why this time is coming, a divine appointment(that is what these Festivals are...appointments with God, a time to meet with Him) These are the stars, the main characters on the scene, the ones Daddy has his hand on for one last chance to bring them to his Son...

    The Jews call them Intermediates, or Sinners, those who have not decided one way or another, and there are many of them...During this time as we see in the Festival teachings, they are brought to their knees and they're hearts are tested beyond belief....and this is suppose to be the biggest revival in history...yet many lose their lives too(but save their souls)...

    Rosh Ha Shannah and Yom Kippur is all about these Days of Awe the Earth has not seen yet...but will soon

    And what about the Righteous? A wedding, a corination of King Yeshua (Jesus) and a week in the Chupah (Wedding Chamber) then a return to Earth to set up the Kingdom of God on earth and the 1000 year reign of the King....also unfulfilled teachings of the fall festivals.

    Yes the Sacrifice has been made(from the foundation of the world it was made in Jesus) BUT the Feasts will not see their complete fulfillment till Jesus sets his foot down on the earth and begins his physical reign
     
  12. yeshuasavedme

    yeshuasavedme Senior Veteran

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    Hi Tishri1,
    The atonement was completely fullfilled on Passover! -out of season, to man, but not to the One who owns the days -and will never be done again, at least from God's instigating it, for Jesus completely fullfilled that Day.
    Those who come to Him come on an individual basis and the season is "NOW" for this is the day of salvation, so the veil is split, the way is open, but all must come individually on His terms -repentence, cleansing, and new birth.

    There is also no inscribing of any names in the Book of Life since the beginning of the world. The Book was written in which were all the names and particular members of their physical bodies and all their days numbered before the foundation of the world.

    The list in the Book of Life are all those 'of Adam' (no offspring of the fallen angels and the daughters of Adam were written in that book, BTW, for the earth was given to the sons of Adam, not sons of fallen angels, to inhabit as human sons of God forever), who were planned to be 'sons of God' by the first Adam's multiplication of His being (as the male and female Adam being) with the seed placed in his loins at his creation -Malachi 2:15.

    The sons, in Adam, are lost, But the Son has come to be Kinsman-Redeemer, and to bring the many sons to glory -redemption back to the glory of the sons of God; since the beginning of creation there is no way to be added to the Book of Life, so none are added as the JEws teach, but since the beginning of creation many names have been blotted out of the Book of Life by thier own choices made while they have their being in Adam.

    If you do a biblical search, you'll find that there is no writing in the Book of Life of any name since the foundation of the world -and all 'in Adam' were created to be human sons of God who would multiply as the 'Adam' (multiply and fill the earth) [as the human race]) to fill this earth and occupy it as home forever, as glorified sons of the living God.

    The fall of man caused the race of Adam to be cut off as sons of God, but the redemption of all on the list was the mission of the Last Man, the New Man, the Second Adam -and the Firstborn owns the Book as Lamb of God and all in the book are to be regenerated in the resurrection. those not in the Book will not be regenerated in the resurrection, neither in the first or second resurrections. One can only be blotted out once, in their lives lived in their Adam being, but never added. THe atonement was for all in Adam -for whosoever will may come, and he calls all to Him and is the Light that lights every man that comes into the world. -the blackness of darkness forever in the lake of fire is reserved for ll who get their names blotted out by their own choices made in thier adamic bodies, choices neglected or rejected to be made.
    To be in the Book does not give one eternal life, since the fall, but to be in the Book gives one the legal right to be redeemed by the blood of the Kinsman -Redeemer or to be blotted out of it.

    And Tishri1, the bride is the completed bride the moment the New Man body is given to we who are born in Spirit from above.
    The wedding chamber is not biblical, but what is biblical is the week of consecration as priest. We are all made priests and kings to Him, and when we receive our regenerated bodies -which is the 'clothing' we wait for since our cleansing [the atonement on the cross is our cleansing] and anointing [the coming of the Holy Spirit to indwell us as the adopted sons of God when we repent is our anointing] , we do remain in the temple in our rooms, shut in with Him for the week of seven years of the great tribulation -the oracle of that is in Leviticus 8:

    31 And Moses said to Aaron and his sons, "Boil the flesh at the door of the tabernacle of meeting, and eat it there with the bread that is in the basket of consecration offerings, as I commanded, saying, 'Aaron and his sons shall eat it.' 32 What remains of the flesh and of the bread you shall burn with fire. 33 And you shall not go outside the door of the tabernacle of meeting for seven days, until the days of your consecration are ended. For seven days he shall consecrate you. 34 As he has done this day, so the Lord has commanded to do, to make atonement for you. 35 Therefore you shall stay at the door of the tabernacle of meeting day and night for seven days, and keep the charge of the Lord, so that you may not die; for so I have been commanded." 36 So Aaron and his sons did all the things that the Lord had commanded by the hand of Moses.


    Rev 1:6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him [be] glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

    Rev 5:10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

    To be 'one' in the New Man, in the regenerated body, cleansed soul, and joined as one in Him by the Spirit of adoption, is the completion of the marraige and the adoption of the Adam 'widow'. We'll be shut in with Him in the tabernacle in heaven for the seven years of our consecration after receiving the New Man bodies.

    Adam was put to sleep and Eve was formed from his side and brought to him by the Creator and they were named 'Adam', and were 'one spirit' (Malachi 2:15), for the multiplying of persons in the Adam being who would be the sons of God the Creator sought to fil this earth.

    The Creator gets the sons by the adoption of the 'dead' Adam -and the 'bride' by the regeneration of our adamic bodies into the image of the 'New Man', who brings the many sons to glory by His ransom.

    No more Ark of the Covenant will be on this earth ever again, and no more Day of atonement, and no more fasting for Yom Kippur;

    Jer 3:16 And it shall come to pass, when ye be multiplied and increased in the land, in those days, saith the LORD, they shall say no more, The ark of the covenant of the LORD: neither shall it come to mind: neither shall they remember it; neither shall they visit [it]; neither shall [that] be done any more.
    Jer 3:17 At that time they shall call Jerusalem the throne of the LORD; and all the nations shall be gathered unto it, to the name of the LORD, to Jerusalem: neither shall they walk any more after the imagination of their evil heart.

    During the Millennial reign, the fast for the Day of atonement will not be kept -for all who come to be redeemed repent on an individual basis and enter into the Presence of the Living God and He in them -by the New Birth.
    Not since the LORD split the veil has He accepted anyone into His presence on any basis other than the finished work of the LORD in flesh, as Yeshua, the Messiah.

    Zec 8:19 Thus saith the LORD of hosts; The fast of the fourth [month], and the fast of the fifth, and the fast of the seventh, and the fast of the tenth, shall be to the house of Judah joy and gladness, and cheerful feasts; therefore love the truth and peace.

    Never again: Lev 23:27 Also on the tenth [day] of this seventh month [there shall be] a day of atonement: it shall be an holy convocation unto you; and ye shall afflict your souls, and offer an offering made by fire unto the LORD.
     
  13. Tishri1

    Tishri1 Well-Known Member Supporter

    +4,058
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    Again let me put it this way...Don't throw the baby out with the bath water...This day is yet to come and there is much to learn about it through the Teaching and Scriptures related to it(actually them, Rosh Hashannah, Yom Kippur, And Sukkot)
     
  14. yeshuasavedme

    yeshuasavedme Senior Veteran

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    As a joyful feast, only, will Yom Kippur be kept -and no Day of atonement ever again! Only individuals can come one at a time by His Spirit drawing them to the Salvation offered in this Day of Salvation.

    Sukkot will be kept, during the millennial reign, for one thing, it is not totally fullfilled until the end of the Millennial reign, when the final harvest of nations is gathered into the eternal kingdom of God -given their new bodies.
     
  15. Tishri1

    Tishri1 Well-Known Member Supporter

    +4,058
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    well that is definately your opinion and I respect that...:hug:

    Tomorrow is Yom Kippur and I will be thinking about the millions who do not know Jesus and pray for them...and about the day sometime in the future when the final Yom Kippur takes place and those who have rejected the call of salvation are brought to final judgement :pray::pray::pray:
     
  16. justified

    justified Well-Known Member

    +24
    Protestant
    Yom Kippur is excellent. But I'm afraid that purim is better, for obvious reason :)

    I'm slightly worried about the quality of word studies going down in this thread. I'm afraid quoting strongs does very little for anyone's understanding of anything.
     
  17. visionary

    visionary Your God is my God... Ruth said, so say I. Supporter

    +6,193
    Messianic
    Now knowing the judgement of the Lord has an appointed time, called the Day of Atonement, it is important to learn more about this appointed time and what to expect. I want you to understand that when the Lord comes to His temple it will be fast, suddenly. For those that are prepared for it , this will be a time of great rejoicing, for those who are unprepared it will be the judgement that they so feared.

    2 Chronicles 29:36 And Hezekiah rejoiced, and all the people, that God had prepared the people: for the thing was done suddenly.

    Psalm 64:1 Hear my voice, O God, in my prayer: preserve my life from fear of the enemy. 2 Hide me from the secret counsel of the wicked; from the insurrection of the workers of iniquity: 3 Who whet their tongue like a sword, and bend their bows to shoot their arrows, even bitter words: 4 That they may shoot in secret at the perfect: suddenly do they shoot at him, and fear not.5 They encourage themselves in an evil matter: they commune of laying snares privily; they say, Who shall see them? 6 They search out iniquities; they accomplish a diligent search: both the inward thought of every one of them, and the heart, is deep. 7 But God shall shoot at them with an arrow; suddenly shall they be wounded. 8 So they shall make their own tongue to fall upon themselves: all that see them shall flee away. 9 And all men shall fear, and shall declare the work of God; for they shall wisely consider of his doing. 10 The righteous shall be glad in the LORD, and shall trust in him; and all the upright in heart shall glory.

    Think about it, if God suddenly came to your mind, and all the secret things are revealed in their true light, how would you feel, what you do and how would you respond to such an event.

    Ecclesiastes 9:12 For man also knoweth not his time: as the fishes that are taken in an evil net, and as the birds that are caught in the snare; so are the sons of men snared in an evil time, when it falleth suddenly upon them.

    Proverbs 29:1 He, that being often reproved hardeneth his neck, shall suddenly be destroyed, and that without remedy.
    Because of hardness of heart, there will be people will not listen to the message that would have prepared them as to what is about to come upon the world, leaving them unprepared for the reality of the event.

    Isaiah 47:11 Therefore shall evil come upon thee; thou shalt not know from whence it riseth: and mischief shall fall upon thee; thou shalt not be able to put it off: and desolation shall come upon thee suddenly, which thou shalt not know.

    Isaiah 48:3 I have declared the former things from the beginning; and they went forth out of my mouth, and I shewed them; I did them suddenly, and they came to pass.

    Taking down that curtain in your mind, that most people use to mentally separate themselves from God, God suddenly shows up in all His majestic Holiness. Today it is your sins that separate you from God like a curtain. They are what keeps you from seeing God.

    Isaiah 59:2 But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you, that he will not hear.

    God will tear down that curtain suddenly in the day that He said He would.

    Jeremiah 4:20 Destruction upon destruction is cried; for the whole land is spoiled: suddenly are my tents spoiled, and my curtains in a moment.

    Mourning for the only son, Yeshua, God’s people will be rejoicing when He comes to their temple, in the real way which is more awesome than there are words to describe the experience. It will a totally different event for them.

    Jeremiah 6:26 O daughter of my people, gird thee with sackcloth, and wallow thyself in ashes: make thee mourning, as for an only son, most bitter lamentation: for the spoiler shall suddenly come upon us.

    The Lord knows that only He is the one for His bride. He will come suddenly to her, which is our minds, the Temple of God, at the appointed time. It is important for believers to be ready at the appointed time for the experience with God, that is so necessary for us to prepare to live with God forever.

    Jeremiah 49 :9 Behold, he shall come up like a lion from the swelling of Jordan against the habitation of the strong: but I will suddenly make him run away from her: and who is a chosen man, that I may appoint over her? for who is like me? and who will appoint me the time? and who is that shepherd that will stand before me?

    Malachi 3:1 Behold, I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me: and the LORD, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to his temple, even the messenger of the covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, he shall come, saith the LORD of hosts.

    With these important thoughts on the value of what we are about to understand, let us prayerfully proceed. The 2300 day prophecy was given to prepare the mind of men, for the coming of God to His temple, which is your mind, for the final cleansing necessary, or for the judgment of the mind that will not stay cleansed. Do you remember the story that Yeshua told about the house that was cleansed of demons and later after the demons came back to find the house cleaned, and they gather legions to fill this house, which Yeshua declared was worse than the first.

    Luke 11:24 When the unclean spirit is gone out of a man, he walketh through dry places, seeking rest; and finding none, he saith, I will return unto my house whence I came out. 25 And when he cometh, he findeth it swept and garnished. 26 Then goeth he, and taketh to him seven other spirits more wicked than himself; and they enter in, and dwell there: and the last state of that man is worse than the first.

    So it is at the time of the final cleansing, when the Little Horn enters the heavenly sanctuary and stops the daily sacrifice. There is no one to save people from their sins.

    Deuteronomy 28:29 And thou shalt grope at noonday, as the blind gropeth in darkness, and thou shalt not prosper in thy ways: and thou shalt be only oppressed and spoiled evermore, and no man shall save thee.

    There will be nothing stopping the demons from entering the minds of men, and then the most terrifying period of earth's history will begin. We know this because there will be, for that period of time, no daily sacrifice in the heavenly sanctuary and therefore no mediator between God and sinful man!

    Judges 10:13 Yet ye have forsaken me, and served other gods: wherefore I will deliver you no more.

    John 14:19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.

    Hebrews 10:18 Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.
    Hebrews 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

    The daily sacrifice which embodies all the merits of the Savior's blood securing pardon, cleansing and protection to those who trust and obey is gone. When this daily sacrifice is blocked by the workings of the devil in overwhelming delusions and deception, then you have an unrestrained Satanic reign of terror throughout the universe.
     
  18. yeshuasavedme

    yeshuasavedme Senior Veteran

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    You dislike Strong's Greek or Hebrew?
    blueletterbible has a revised Strong's concordance, and for we who don't speak Greek or Hebrew, it has been a very good help. -So you have a better concordance, then?
     
  19. yeshuasavedme

    yeshuasavedme Senior Veteran

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    Hi Tishri1,
    Of course you may do what you wish -on the acceptable year of the LORD, however, I think there is much to show that the Day of Atonement is finished upon the cross, out of season, and accepted by the Presence on high once, for all.

    I think the judgment is before the 'New Beginning', the regeneration, of the eighth Day of this creation, cause the seed of Adam is completely cut off from the earth in the regeneration of it after the thousand year reign of peace. Circumcision on the eighth day is the oracle of that, I fully believe.

    And the final judgment may not be at this time of year, as the New Beginning for all Believers began at the cross, on Passover, which was the acceptable season, or time; the Day of Salvation -when the blood of sprinkling, the atonement, was accepted and the veil split- by YHWH of hosts at the time that the Messiah was not only the Passover Lamb, but the 'Mercy Seat' upon which the blood of sprinkling for the cleansing of our 'Adam' being was made, once, for all, and finished forever.

    Isa 49:8 Thus saith the LORD, In an acceptable time have I heard thee, and in a day of salvation have I helped thee: and I will preserve thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, to establish the earth, to cause to inherit the desolate heritages;

    The split veil was the sign of the acceptable sacrifice's 'acceptance' and of the end of the first death of separation -for all in Adam who repent and Believe in His atonement for their cleansing and acceptance.

    After the body of the Passover Lamb was our final true Mercy Seat and His blood was the final blood of sprinkling upon His body on the cross, that Day of Atonement is no longer celebrated or accepted by any other way than by repenting and Believing in the blood of the Lamb of God and His finished work for our redemption.

    YHWH says that the Day of Atonement is not to be kept as a day of fasting or mourning and repentence and the Ark will not ever be in the temple of the millennial reign or after that again -it is finished!

    Jer 3:16And it shall come to pass, when ye be multiplied and increased in the land, in those days, saith the LORD, they shall say no more, The ark of the covenant of the LORD: neither shall it come to mind: neither shall they remember it; neither shall they visit [it]; neither shall [that] be done any more.
    Jer 3:17 At that time they shall call Jerusalem the throne of the LORD; and all the nations shall be gathered unto it, to the name of the LORD, to Jerusalem: neither shall they walk any more after the imagination of their evil heart.


    Zec 8:19 Thus saith the LORD of hosts; The fast of the fourth [month], and the fast of the fifth, and the fast of the seventh, and the fast of the tenth, shall be to the house of Judah joy and gladness, and cheerful feasts; therefore love the truth and peace.

    Never again: Lev 23:27 Also on the tenth [day] of this seventh month [there shall be] a day of atonement: it shall be an holy convocation unto you; and ye shall afflict your souls, and offer an offering made by fire unto the LORD.

    There are two things that I believe the Word teaches: The fig tree is cursed forever by the LORD and no man will ever eat fruit from it again -it will not produce sons of God for the Creator, which is the fruit He seeks of this earth.
    He came seeking fruit out of season -there was none. He cursed the tree and the roots and the branches withered.
    That tree is the Mosaic system that Israel was given to keep, as keepers of His vineyard, that was to produce sons of God for the Creator.

    The Mosaic system will not ever produce sons of God again. It cannot, for the final goal of it has come and He has become the final atonement once, for all in Adam -no more day of atonement ever! The signs were all about Him and His work.
    He will restore Israel -but under the New Covenant, of that He is very explicit, and the Feasts will not be as before, for the substance has come that the shadows typed.
    The Millennial temple will be different from the Mosaic tabernacle and Solomon's temple, for the Atonement has been accepted and there is no more veil or any of that, that was in the Holy of Holies that taught of the separation in the first death from the Holy Presence of the glory of the unseen God.
    Messiah will reign as High Priest and High King, in the office of Firstborn over all the earth, and the priesthood will never have another high priest from among men again -and all the regenerated Believers are made kings and priests unto Him and will reign with Him.
    We who are born from above by the Spirit of adoption are made one in Him, and we may come into the Presence on high where the true Mercy Seat is, at any time, and receive help and aid from Him before the one that the earthly one was a copy of -and the one on high was an oracle of the True One, the New Man body of YHWH in flesh as our Redeemer.
    'Today' is the Day of Salvation -we don't await a day of atonement but look back to it -on Passover almost two thousand years ago.
     
  20. justified

    justified Well-Known Member

    +24
    Protestant

    I am wary of people not trained in Greek and Hebrew throwing around Greek and Hebrew like they're trained in Greek and Hebrew. Strong's is a concordance with a very basic dictionary in the back. It's not a lexicon. Nothing in Strong's is going to be able to define a word for you anywhere; that's what language training is for.

    The resources I suggest (rather than strongs) for lexical work:
    Theological Dictionary of the New Testament (ed. Kittel) 10 Volumes
    A Good Greek Lexicon and a for the Hebrew, Brown-Driver Briggs
    Theologische Worden Buchen des Alten Testamentum (I think I spelled that wrong; it's at volume 24 now, I think).

    Alls I'm sayin is, don't throw the languages around like you know what it says because Strong's had a listing there; quite frankly, you don't know what it says and Strong's isn't designed to tell you.
     
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