Yes, Schiavo is starving, but so are 815 million other people worldwide

[Zoot]

Slowly yet surely, the line between modern liberalism and naziism is fading. Hitler called for the extermination of disabled and mentally-handicapped persons. Now we see liberals demanding death-by-starvation for Terri, which they call "mercy killing," as well as the extermination of "impure" and "unwanted" babies.

Liberalism makes me physically ill. I will do all within my strength to see that liberalism is destroyed, for the sake of my children and their children.

liberal. adjective.
1. respectful and accepting of behaviour or opinions different from one's own. favourable to individual rights and freedoms.
2. favouring individual liberty, free trade and moderate political and social reform.
3. concerned with broadening general knowledge and experience.

Which parts do you find similar to Naziism?

 

[Phylogeny]

Good question, I don't know why they didn't let you put this in the 'news and politics' forum since we already got five or six Terri Schiavo threads going, what's another one?

Anyway, I posed a similar question way back when about why there's such a focus on abortion and gay marriage in this country by people who purportedly care so much about 'moral values' and 'culture of life' yet there seem to be little advocacy or energy (in comparison) for fighting poverty that is killing 11 million kids under the age of five. Every. Single. Day.

And I think the answer to that question is the same that was answered for this thread, which is that the Terri Schiavo case offers two things world poverty does not have:

1. A moral debate---no one debates the morality of poverty. It sucks. We should try to fix it. Case closed. But Terri Schiavo represents the idea of what happens when you are in a semi-vegetative state with no living will? Who should decide when and if the plug should be pulled?

2. A face to a cause. Poverty doesn't have a face to represent it. We see it in the numbers, but rarely does it have one single person that defines it. However, this can also be the case for cases like abortion and gay marriage, which leads me to the third reason:

3. Relevence in this country. People know this affects them. Starvation doesn't affect the average Americans, so the average american isn't going to care. And that goes for many people who fight for "moral value" and a 'culture of life' (not a jab at people who advocate either, but it's irksome as if someone who is pro choice has no moral value or don't celebrate life...anyway I digress...)

I disagree that people care about the Schiavo case and not feeding the hungry b/c they feel they can do something about it. Actually that's wrong, people in this country can very easily save a life, or several, or improve someone's chance at a life by donating time and/or money to a good cause. I had a good friend who donates a little bit of money that she gets as a college student to a poor girl in India. How about that for saving a life? Terri Schiavo might not be saved, but some poor kid in Asia might have a better life for only $10/month!

However, it is true that people have certain standards for our 'civilized' country that we don't have for developing nations. We 'shouldn't have people police killing street kids, even though other countries have them. We shouldn't have government running protesters over tanks, even though other countries have them....

It's the idea something bad shouldn't happen in this country even as it happens in other country that makes people want to care about the outcome for Terri Schiavo, and not for the poor Bangladashi kid who will probably die on the streets tomorrow.

 

[Phylogeny]

Slowly yet surely, the line between modern liberalism and naziism is fading. Hitler called for the extermination of disabled and mentally-handicapped persons. Now we see liberals demanding death-by-starvation for Terri, which they call "mercy killing," as well as the extermination of "impure" and "unwanted" babies.

Liberalism makes me physically ill. I will do all within my strength to see that liberalism is destroyed, for the sake of my children and their children.

liberal. adjective.
1. respectful and accepting of behaviour or opinions different from one's own. favourable to individual rights and freedoms.
2. favouring individual liberty, free trade and moderate political and social reform.
3. concerned with broadening general knowledge and experience.

Which parts do you find similar to Naziism?

The part where people can have free choices in how they live their life.

Last time I heard, liberalism isn't killing 11 million kids a year who die from poverty, which, for some odd reason, a pro-deather like me seem to care so much about.

Go liberalism!

 

[Ninja Turtles]

I think the news doesn't like to run stories because people don't like seeing the misery around them, it's easier to start fights about others' misery. I bet if we had stories about poverty on every night, I'm sure we'd see a change in the public's outlook of the poor. As of now, it is rather hostile because we have many with the attitude that it's your own fault if you're poor.

 

[SisterGeoff]

Disregarding Godwins Law for a moment please allow me to respond.

Hitler called for the extermination of disabled and mentally-handicapped persons. Now we see liberals demanding death-by-starvation for Terri, which they call "mercy killing," as well as the extermination of "impure" and "unwanted" babies.

Can you please point out to me these nefarious liberals calling for the rounding up and forced euthanasia of people with brain damage, downs syndrome and other assorted forms of mental or physical handicaps? After all if you have having difficulty seeing differences between Nazis and Liberals surely there would be prominent liberals calling for the liquidation of the population of state run homes for the mentally and physically handy caped as the Nazis did.



As for the "death-by-starvation" to be accurate it's going to be death by dehydration rather then starvation given that lack of water can kill you in a matter of days where as lack of food takes weeks to kill you. In any case, why accentuate that fact when I gather whatever the method used, be it the lingering death from lack of water of swift respiratory failure of a narcotics overdose, you would vehemently oppose the act all the same?

 

[santalucia]

Disregarding Godwins Law for a moment please allow me to respond.


Can you please point out to me these nefarious liberals calling for the rounding up and forced euthanasia of people with brain damage, downs syndrome and other assorted forms of mental or physical handicaps? After all if you have having difficulty seeing differences between Nazis and Liberals surely there would be prominent liberals calling for the liquidation of the population of state run homes for the mentally and physically handy caped as the Nazis did.



As for the "death-by-starvation" to be accurate it's going to be death by dehydration rather then starvation given that lack of water can kill you in a matter of days where as lack of food takes weeks to kill you. In any case, why accentuate that fact when I gather whatever the method used, be it the lingering death from lack of water of swift respiratory failure of a narcotics overdose, you would vehemently oppose the act all the same?

While it's true that murder is murder, to purposely choose the one requiring more pain and suffering seems rather crual and callous. Surely a caring person would protest?

As to your first point, it has to start somewhere, with one person. How do you see a Nazi-like extermination commencing, if not like this?

 

[SisterGeoff]

As to your first point, it has to start somewhere, with one person. How do you see a Nazi-like extermination commencing, if not like this?

There is simply no comparison between this case and what the Nazis did towards the disabled. In the case of the Nazis the state stepped in and forcefully euthanized people with certain disabilities, in this case private citizens are in a legal battle over the unclear wishes for medical treatment of a brain dead woman.

 

[santalucia]

There is simply no comparison between this case and what the Nazis did towards the disabled. In the case of the Nazis the state stepped in and euthanized people with certain disabilities, in this case private citizens are in a legal battle over the unclear wishes for medical treatment of a brain dead woman.

Oh for heaven's sake, still with the "brain dead". She is NOT brain dead!!

And in this case the state (Judge Greer) stepped in and not just euthanizes but cruelly murders someone who is disabled. You really can't see the comparison?

 

[Ninja Turtles]

Oh for heaven's sake, still with the "brain dead". She is NOT brain dead!!

And in this case the state (Judge Greer) stepped in and not just euthanizes but cruelly murders someone who is disabled. You really can't see the comparison?

I think you're morphing this case away from what it really is. You have a woman that is in a state that requires a medical apparatus to sustain her. You have a husband that claims she did not want to be on a machine, so he wishes to remove the machine. But then you have parents that wish to keep the machine sustaining her life. Her wishes are unclear and the courts believe that the husband has proven that he knew his wife's wishes. Plain and simple. This isn't a liberal and conservative issue, nor is this an issue of disabled persons or euthanasia. This is a case about an unclear living will, and that's all.

People that say the feeding tube should be removed are basing their argument on the decisions of the court and doctors, their views on disabled persons and euthanasia have nothing to do with the case. Personally, I really don't care about this case because there are still 815 million other people starving worldwide. The courts say the husband knows her wishes and doctors say she is in a vegetative state (I don't wish to debate this issue), so they say the feeding tube can be removed. Like this topic says, when this woman dies, will people put their energy into something positive to help ease poverty around the world? Probably not, they'll just jump onto the next culture war item of the day be it gay marriage, abortion, or whatever topic politicians can use to get votes.

 

[Gunny]

God's Word tells of great famine in latter days.

 

[Western Deity]

Good thread .

 

[Gunny]

Yes, thread is good.

 

[SisterGeoff]

And in this case the state (Judge Greer) stepped in and not just euthanizes but cruelly murders someone who is disabled. You really can't see the comparison?

No, because as I said there simply is not one. The judge did not jump in out of thin air and demand that the feeding tube be removed but rather ruled that the decisions related to medical treatment made by the husband, and quite likely the wishes of Terry, be respected. No law requiring that the brain dead, terminally ill, or physically handicapped be euthanized has been passed or even proposed all that has happened is the right of who gets to make choices about the medical care of a woman who cannot do so has been determined.



Do you honestly think this is the first or only time that a situation such as this, withdrawal of a feeding tube from a brain dead person, has happened?

 

[pegatha]

I disagree that people care about the Schiavo case and not feeding the hungry b/c they feel they can do something about it. Actually that's wrong, people in this country can very easily save a life, or several, or improve someone's chance at a life by donating time and/or money to a good cause. I had a good friend who donates a little bit of money that she gets as a college student to a poor girl in India. How about that for saving a life? Terri Schiavo might not be saved, but some poor kid in Asia might have a better life for only $10/month!

I think people in this country do care about people overseas, but my point is that we believe (rightly or wrongly) that we have no reliable direct influence. I might donate $10 a month to feed a starving child, but how do I know that my money really makes it to that child? Or that $8 of my $10 isn't siphoned off into overhead? There are so many stories of relief efforts being thwarted by corrupt local officials, warlords, terrorist organizations, etc., that I've become cynical and depressed about the possibility of helping in those situations. Not to say I don't care or I don't want to help, but I think (again, rightly or wrongly) that I have more supervision over efforts in this country. And I know I'm not alone in that opinion. That was the point I was trying to make.

 

[santalucia]

No, because as I said there simply is not one. The judge did not jump in out of thin air and demand that the feeding tube be removed but rather ruled that the decisions related to medical treatment made by the husband, and quite likely the wishes of Terry, be respected. No law requiring that the brain dead, terminally ill, or physically handicapped be euthanized has been passed or even proposed all that has happened is the right of who gets to make choices about the medical care of a woman who cannot do so has been determined.



Do you honestly think this is the first or only time that a situation such as this, withdrawal of a feeding tube from a brain dead person, has happened?

You obviously are lacking in knowledge of the case, and obviously desire to keep it that way. Your insistence that she is brain dead proves that. Suit yourself.

It's not "medical care" that's getting terminated, it's not "extraordinary means", it is merely food and water getting withdrawn. There is no specific directive from Terri that this was her desire, in fact quite the opposite. Her dramatic effort to talk yesterday proves that.

The similarity in the 2 examples is so obvious, I am left to wonder why you are so adament to ignore it. What do you have to prove? Why are you so eager to kill this innocent woman?

 

[pegatha]

Do you honestly think this is the first or only time that a situation such as this, withdrawal of a feeding tube from a brain dead person, has happened?

Just curious, why does everyone keep refering to Terri as "brain dead"? She's conscious, she apparently recognizes & responds to people, and she's not on a ventilator. She's only had a feeding tube because her husband denied her the rehab she needed to learn to swallow and speak again. So why speak of her as brain dead?

 

[Evee]

Like pegatha it hits closer to home and this death can and could be prevented.

 

[Evee]

Just curious, why does everyone keep refering to Terri as "brain dead"? She's conscious, she apparently recognizes & responds to people, and she's not on a ventilator. She's only had a feeding tube because her husband denied her the rehab she needed to learn to swallow and speak again. So why speak of her as brain dead?

I agree this is murder.

 

[SisterGeoff]

You obviously are lacking in knowledge of the case, and obviously desire to keep it that way. Your insistence that she is brain dead proves that. Suit yourself.

I should have been more specific, persistent vegetative state due to her cerebral cortex no longer existing.

It's not "medical care" that's getting terminated, it's not "extraordinary means", it is merely food and water getting withdrawn. There is no specific directive from Terri that this was her desire, in fact quite the opposite. Her dramatic effort to talk yesterday proves that.

And may it serve as a lesson to every one to have a clearly written living will. Perhaps then thoes we left behind could be spared such slander.



The only dramatic effort from yesterday is that of people determined to interpret the gurgling of a person in a persistent vegetative state as speech.

The similarity in the 2 examples is so obvious, I am left to wonder why you are so adament to ignore it. What do you have to prove? Why are you so eager to kill this innocent woman?

I suppose I deserve that for disregarding Godwins. I would reply but I have a Hitler youth rally to attend and a few dozen angelic people to euthanize this afternoon so I will have to cut this short.

 

[Milla]

TAKE THE DISCUSSION OF MS. SCHIAVO'S MENTAL STATE TO ONE OF THE EIGHT THOUSAND TERRI SCHIAVO THREADS, PLEASE.

Thanks.