YES or NO: Is It Fair That Some People Are Going To Hell?

[beechy]

First of all, you are under the false assumption that all of mankind are God's children.
The Word of God says no such thing. By nature, since the fall of Adam, we are
children of wrath before receiving Christ. (See Ephesians 2:3)

The only reason I referred to "God's children" is because I was responding to Nadiine's post which began by analogizing God to a parent who gives birth to a child they know has a serious defect because they love that child anyway:

Would a parent give birth to a child they know has a serious defect? Yes. How about if a child eventually rebels & would estranged from them? sure.
The answer is LOVE here.

I understood Nadiine to be arguing that God loves all of his children, and that's why He allows us to be born even if he knows we'll end up in hell.

And you are also seeming to forget that God Himself created a way that NO ONE

would have to face the judgment and could be saved.

Is it His fault that the majority of people choose to be too prideful
(which is the same sin that cause satan to fall from heaven) to receive
His gift, and would rather in their foolishness shake their
puny fingers at and judge God?

I'm not judging God, nor do I pretend to understand why things are the way the are. I'm interested in the analyses that posters have offered on this forum. As for the "way out" that you refer to, I guess my follow up remark would be that He wouldn't have to construct a "way out" of hell if He didn't permit hell in the first place.

 

[Rajni]

chaela, they figure that because we know everyone will eventually be saved they think WE think that we don't really need to witness or share the good news or warn of the burning they will receive for doing their own works and walking in the flesh. They don't seem to realize that it is the love of God which compels us to share His good news, that man HAS been reconciled back to God through Jesus sacrifice. Let alone the fact that we are commanded to share this good news.

Tavita, the mindset in such discussions is very similar to what I encountered when I trusted Christ as my Savior and left the Roman Catholic church. Before trusting Christ for salvation, I used to believe I had to "earn" my salvation through good works. Once I trusted Jesus for salvation and would share with non-Christian friends about how salvation is a free gift, one of the first things they'd say was, "Oh, so since you're going to heaven anyway, you can sin all ya want, right?" Same exact thing! It really shows the heart, though, because immediately you realize that the person you're dealing with isn't in it for the love of God but instead is in it for the salvation they hope He'll give them for being faithful. It's a cart-before-the-horse sort of thing...

 

[Zecryphon]

Yes, I can quite agree with you there. However, going through the fire of God can't be described as a walk in the park. It would have to be something far more agonizingly intense and painful than anything the law courts of the land can dish out.

"Yes, I can quite agree with you there. However, going through the fire of God can't be described as a walk in the park."

No one is describing the lake of fire or hell as a walk in the park. But to even get to either of those two places you have to first step into eternity. If you step into eternity as a lifelong unrepentant crimminal before God, you will be judged as an eternal crimminal. Therefore, an eternal sentence is perfectly appropriate.

"It would have to be something far more agonizingly intense and painful than anything the law courts of the land can dish out."

It was just an example to get people to think about why they expect God be lenient on them, when they would be outraged at a judge being lenient with a crimminal. Think about it, people demand a double standard only when their case or number is up. For everybody else, give 'em punishment. But when it comes to ME, give me mercy, cuz I did alot of good things too. LOL

 

[Rajni]

Keep that scripture in context. When will this happen? At the second coming of Christ. It's not going to be too hard to confess Jesus is Lord over all when He's kicked Satan and the false prophet into Hell. He will be standing there before you, there is no way you can deny Him at that point. But because they confess that He is Lord does not mean that that act will save them. We are saved through faith, which is a gift from God. We are not saved by stating the obvious, when we're face to face with it.

But a person cannot even state the obvious about God without the Holy Spirit. Satan and demons have seen the obvious and they're still being stubborn (to put it very mildly) The missing ingredient therefore has to be that the Holy Spirit has not been given to Satan and the demons to have that Eureka moment, but in the case of all the knee-bending and tongue-confessiong among the humanfolk in the end, that will have had to involve the Holy Spirit. Those with the Spirit don't get chucked into the pit.

Of course, but the people who are confessing Christ as Lord and Savior in the scripture you provided are not believers but unbelievers. The elect will be taken away before that happens. And IAR if you take that as evidence of my belief in a pre-trib rapture, we're throwin' down right here and I'm beatin' you with the Book of Concord. LOL I do believe the elect will be taken away, I just believe it happens on the last day, not prior to a 7-year tribulation period.

I hope you don't mind if I don't into the eschatology of things, because I'm currently undergoing a paradigm shift in that area. I was a pre-tribber for a long time, however. Now I'm leaning towards -- oh, never mind, that's for another thread, and I'm not 100% convinced enough about it anyway to ruffle feathers over it, LOL!

 

[Floatingaxe]

It would seem you only took in half of what I said. I also stated that no one can say that Jesus is Lord without the Holy Spirit, and no one with the Holy Spirit ends up in hell.

You have the message of Christ's justice so very skewed and it is spiritually harmful to the hearer.

Mark my words: the Holy Spirit will be there making sure every one declares Jesus Christ is LORD. This scenario takes place at the end, when the choice is withdrawn and Judgment occurs. No one who refuses Christ will be rewarded. They will be thrown into everlasting torment along with Satan and his minions. But first, they will know and declare to their horror that Jesus is king of kings and lord of lords. Jesus, the perfect Judge cannot let spiritual criminals go free--that would be UNJUST!


Our Judge judges righteosuly. He never lets a criminal escape justice. All unbelievers have refused their ransom and will pay the price of their sin themselves--by their damnation and eternal death.

 

[Rajni]

We're not assuming that God's standard of love included endless misery. We're asserting that God's standard of justice does.

And His standard of justice was satisfied at the Cross. If it were just a matter of making each individual's life miserable for atonement's sake, Jesus could have been spared the trouble.

 

[Tavita]

No one is describing the lake of fire or hell as a walk in the park. But to even get to either of those two places you have to first step into eternity. If you step into eternity as a lifelong unrepentant crimminal before God, you will be judged as an eternal crimminal. Therefore, an eternal sentence is perfectly appropriate.

Does that mean you believe that all mankind are immortal beings? I was under the impression that to receive Christ we are then given eternal life, and when He comes we will 'put on' immortality.

If you believe in eternal hell and suffering and that no-one can be saved after this age, or lifetime, then how can a mortal soul end up in an eternal hell?

 

[Rajni]

[FONT=&quot]Yes, those IN CHRIST. ONLY. those outside of Christ perish. That is part of the truth of the gospel message. Don't portray another gospel.[/FONT]

There is a parallel being drawn there, though. Just as in Adam all died, so also in Christ all will be made alive. The same "all". Any suggestion that "all" means something less than everyone would then have to make room for the notion that not everyone died in Adam, and I'm not sure anyone -- at least in this thread -- believes that.

Romans 5:15-19 clarifies this even further:


15But the gift is not like the trespass. For if the many died by the trespass of the one man, how much more did God's grace and the gift that came by the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ, overflow to the many! 16Again, the gift of God is not like the result of the one man's sin: The judgment followed one sin and brought condemnation, but the gift followed many trespasses and brought justification. 17For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive God's abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ.
18Consequently, just as the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men, so also the result of one act of righteousness was justification that brings life for all men. 19For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.

 

[Tavita]

Yes, those IN CHRIST. ONLY. those outside of Christ perish. That is part of the truth of the gospel message. Don't portray another gospel.

Floatingaxe, what the Greek means is 'that in the same way' ALL died in Adam, so 'in the same way' ALL shall be made alive in Christ. Just as equally true that ALL died in Adam, so it will be equally true that ALL shall be made alive in Christ.

Did ALL die in Adam?.. of course.

Will ALL live in Christ?... equally, in the same way, of course.


*Good post, chaela!

 

[Rajni]

His standard of Justice is equal to His standard of Love and Mercy, they are facets to His whole being. They must work in perfect harmony and balance together. His justice cannot go against His love/mercy.

Fortunately, His justice doesn't have to -- it was taken care of at the cross.

Another thing that helps to remember is that love isn't just one of several attributes of God. God is love.


I Jn 4:8
8 Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love.

I Jn 4:16
16 And so we know and rely on the love God has for us. God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in him.


He has the attributes of Justice and Mercy, but in Scripture He not only has love, He is Love itself. Just an interesting little tidbit there, LOL!

 

[Rajni]

His wrath is poured out on those who don't want the gift His love and mercy have provided. The non-Christians are judged according to their crimes and receive justice. So yes it is all balanced. There is no justice in an unrepentant crimminal being rewarded. If that happens in this country, if crimminals are told they can go free, regardless of their crimes, that's considered an extreme miscarriage of justice and the judge is accused of not doing his job of upholding the law. So why should it be any different for God?

That's what the cross was for. And it's not as though sin doesn't come with consequences--we can still get temporally nailed big time for goofing off, LOL! It's just that God doesn't need the consequences to be endless to be effective. A lesser god might need eternity to get a point across, but not the one True God. He's just plain toooo gooooooood at what He does!

 

[Rajni]

You have the message of Christ's justice so very skewed and it is spiritually harmful to the hearer.

Mark my words: the Holy Spirit will be there making sure every one declares Jesus Christ is LORD. This scenario takes place at the end, when the choice is withdrawn and Judgment occurs. No one who refuses Christ will be rewarded. They will be thrown into everlasting torment along with Satan and his minions. But first, they will know and declare to their horror that Jesus is king of kings and lord of lords. Jesus, the perfect Judge cannot let spiritual criminals go free--that would be UNJUST!


Our Judge judges righteosuly. He never lets a criminal escape justice. All unbelievers have refused their ransom and will pay the price of their sin themselves--by their damnation and eternal death.

You are certainly free to believe all that if you wish! I know I did at one time.

 

[Floatingaxe]

There is a parallel being drawn there, though. Just as in Adam all died, so also in Christ all will be made alive. The same "all". Any suggestion that "all" means something less than everyone would then have to make room for the notion that not everyone died in Adam, and I'm not sure anyone -- at least in this thread -- believes that.

Yes, ALL WHO ARE FOUND IN CHRIST! Not all whether or not they believe in Christ. Nothing in Scripture backs you up. Everything on Scripture backs me up.

What you have is wishful thinking and a deep fear that refuses to believe that God has wrath. You have constructed a cartoon-y God, and one that is after your own imaginary design.

Very dangerous theology, based on a lie, and will cause you to bear the guilt of souls who will miss salvation and miss heaven.

Romans 5:15-19 clarifies this even further:

15But the gift is not like the trespass. For if the many died by the trespass of the one man, how much more did God's grace and the gift that came by the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ, overflow to the many! 16Again, the gift of God is not like the result of the one man's sin: The judgment followed one sin and brought condemnation, but the gift followed many trespasses and brought justification. 17For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive God's abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ.
18Consequently, just as the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men, so also the result of one act of righteousness was justification that brings life for all men. 19For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.

Romans 5:15-19 NLT

But there is a great difference between Adam’s sin and God’s gracious gift. For the sin of this one man, Adam, brought death to many. But even greater is God’s wonderful grace and his gift of forgiveness to many through this other man, Jesus Christ. And the result of God’s gracious gift is very different from the result of that one man’s sin. For Adam’s sin led to condemnation, but God’s free gift leads to our being made right with God, even though we are guilty of many sins. For the sin of this one man, Adam, caused death to rule over many. But even greater is God’s wonderful grace and his gift of righteousness, for all who receive it will live in triumph over sin and death through this one man, Jesus Christ. Yes, Adam’s one sin brings condemnation for everyone, but Christ’s one act of righteousness brings a right relationship with God and new life for everyone. Because one person disobeyed God, many became sinners. But because one other person obeyed God, many will be made righteous.




Yes, many--not all. There are sheep and then there are goats.

 

[Rajni]

Floatingaxe, what the Greek means is 'that in the same way' ALL died in Adam, so 'in the same way' ALL shall be made alive in Christ. Just as equally true that ALL died in Adam, so it will be equally true that ALL shall be made alive in Christ.

Did ALL die in Adam?.. of course.

Will ALL live in Christ?... equally, in the same way, of course.


*Good post, chaela!

Thanks, Tavita! By the way, I like your tagline, "God's mercy does not expire when you do" Amen to that! His mercy endures forever!

 

[Floatingaxe]

You are certainly free to believe all that if you wish! I know I did at one time.

I certainly do wish! It is the truth of the word of God. Yiou have turned your back on a fundamental truth of God and have embraced a lie. I pray that your eyes will be opened to the fact that Jesus died for everyone, but not everyone will come.

The most widely know verse in Scripture is included here and tells us that fact.

John 3:16-21
For God loved the world so much that he gave his one and only Son, so that everyone who believes in him will not perish but have eternal life. God sent his Son into the world not to judge the world, but to save the world through him.
“There is no judgment against anyone who believes in him. But anyone who does not believe in him has already been judged for not believing in God’s one and only Son. And the judgment is based on this fact: God’s light came into the world, but people loved the darkness more than the light, for their actions were evil. All who do evil hate the light and refuse to go near it for fear their sins will be exposed. But those who do what is right come to the light so others can see that they are doing what God wants.

 

[Tavita]

Fortunately, His justice doesn't have to -- it was taken care of at the cross.

Another thing that helps to remember is that love isn't just one of several attributes of God. God is love.


I Jn 4:8
8 Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love.

I Jn 4:16
16 And so we know and rely on the love God has for us. God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in him.


He has the attributes of Justice and Mercy, but in Scripture He not only has love, He is Love itself. Just an interesting little tidbit there, LOL!

Yes! That's so true!

His Justice is part of His Love.. and He IS love, as you say.

We forget so easily that His Justice was satisfied by Jesus sacrifice... and Jesus died for ALL, whether they receive it now or later...

You explain things so well!

 

[Tavita]

Thanks, Tavita! By the way, I like your tagline, "God's mercy does not expire when you do" Amen to that! His mercy endures forever!

Another universalist came up with that tagline and gave anyone who believed the same permission to use it!

 

[Floatingaxe]

Yes! That's so true!

His Justice is part of His Love.. and He IS love, as you say.

We forget so easily that His Justice was satisfied by Jesus sacrifice... and Jesus died for ALL, whether they receive it now or later...

You explain things so well!

There is no "later". There is NOW and there is TOO LATE.

2 Corinthians 6:2
For God says,
"At just the right time I heard you.
On the day of salvation, I helped you."
Indeed, the "right time" is now. Today is the day of salvation.

 

[shepsgirl]

What about this parable of Jesus:
The Parable of the Wedding Banquet

1Jesus spoke to them again in parables, saying: 2"The kingdom of heaven is like a king who prepared a wedding banquet for his son. 3He sent his servants to those who had been invited to the banquet to tell them to come, but they refused to come.

4"Then he sent some more servants and said, 'Tell those who have been invited that I have prepared my dinner: My oxen and fattened cattle have been butchered, and everything is ready. Come to the wedding banquet.'
5"But they paid no attention and went off—one to his field, another to his business. 6The rest seized his servants, mistreated them and killed them. 7The king was enraged. He sent his army and destroyed those murderers and burned their city.
8"Then he said to his servants, 'The wedding banquet is ready, but those I invited did not deserve to come. 9Go to the street corners and invite to the banquet anyone you find.' 10So the servants went out into the streets and gathered all the people they could find, both good and bad, and the wedding hall was filled with guests.
11"But when the king came in to see the guests, he noticed a man there who was not wearing wedding clothes. 12'Friend,' he asked, 'how did you get in here without wedding clothes?' The man was speechless.
13"Then the king told the attendants, 'Tie him hand and foot, and throw him outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.' 14"For many are invited, but few are chosen."

Why do y'all think the king was so angry at the man who was not there on the king's terms? Why is the man without the wedding clothes different from
those who were wearing them?

 

[Rajni]

Yes, ALL WHO ARE FOUND IN CHRIST! Not all whether or not they believe in Christ. Nothing in Scripture backs you up. Everything on Scripture backs me up.

Spoken with great humility, I might add!

What you have is wishful thinking and a deep fear that refuses to believe that God has wrath. You have constructed a cartoon-y God, and one that is after your own imaginary design.

And you come across as having that same fearful resentment displayed by the prodigal son's brother at seeing their father whip out the fatted calf upon the prodigal's return.

Very dangerous theology, based on a lie, and will cause you to bear the guilt of souls who will miss salvation and miss heaven.

Salvation is not by works, so this is not a valid argument. It is by grace, and no mortal stands in the way of God's grace.

Yes, many--not all. There are sheep and then there are goats.

So you believe that "the many" in the first portion means not everyone has a sinful nature? I thought this was just a Roman Catholic belief ...