YES or NO: Is It Fair That Some People Are Going To Hell?

[Revelation1217]

This is a very important question.

Is it fair that some people are going to hell?

Please respond YES or NO and feel free to explain your response.

This is certainly not a game to God.

And one thing that I have learned through all these years is that God seems to really value the idea of meaningful choice.

Let's set up a scenario.

Imagine your sister was just raped and tortured brutally by some sick, twisted arrogant man.

How would you feel?

You would probably be enraged beyond belief. Your anger would probably be exploding inside of you. Your very soul would be crying out for justice.

But good news......the rapist has been caught and he is going before the judge.

You feel (perhaps naively) that now you are going to get some justice.

Well, at the trial, the judge says to the rapist, "Well, you made a little mistake, but you are alright with me dude......let's go hit the bars I need a drink. Case dismissed!"

How would that make you feel?

The truth is that evil deserves to be punished, and any judge that refuses to punish evil is a wicked judge.

What if God said to Hitler: "Ah I see you killed six million Jews, but I'm cool with that......come and let me show you around your mansion."

Of course God would never say that!

The reality is that God is a God of perfect love AND of perfect justice.

Evil deserves to be punished, and God is going to punish it.

Imagine if all the wicked men in high places today got away with it not only here on earth but in eternity as well?

The heart of this objection is that people do not trust God's punishment to be just.

Well, those who are guilty rarely think they deserve their punishment, while those of us on the outside looking in usually feel they deserve more. Ask the majority of inmates in our prisons today.....very few of them would admit that they got what they deserve.

So what do we know about the coming punishment? We do know from the scriptures that there will be varying levels of judgement:

Matthew 11:20-24

20Then Jesus began to denounce the cities in which most of his miracles had been performed, because they did not repent. 21"Woe to you, Korazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! If the miracles that were performed in you had been performed in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes. 22But I tell you, it will be more bearable for Tyre and Sidon on the day of judgment than for you. 23And you, Capernaum, will you be lifted up to the skies? No, you will go down to the depths. If the miracles that were performed in you had been performed in Sodom, it would have remained to this day. 24But I tell you that it will be more bearable for Sodom on the day of judgment than for you."

So is your judgement going to be the same as that for Satan or for the person next to you? The scriptures seem to indicate not.

God is just, and we can trust God that all of his judgements will be perfectly just. We do not need to worry.

Now some people believe that hell is a "second death" and those who go there go out of existence. Others believe that you suffer for a time based on your sins and then you go out of existence. Others believe that hell is for eternity and people suffer their punishments forever. I am sure there will be tons of posts by people regarding their individual views.

However, for now let me post what the Bible says about the matter at the end of the book:

Revelation 20:10-15

10And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

11Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. Earth and sky fled from his presence, and there was no place for them. 12And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. 13The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what he had done. 14Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. 15If anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

Now is there good news?

Yes!

God is a God of perfect love and of perfect justice.

God loves you and Jesus took your judgement on Himself at the cross.

Being man, Jesus could die for the sins of men.

Being God, Jesus could die for an infinite amount of sins.

If you ask Jesus into your life, you can have eternal life in heaven with Him, and that is great news!

I John 5:11-13

11And this is the testimony: God has given us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. 12He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life.

13I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life.

 

[TexasSky]

Its not even that complicated.

Imagine you and many others are standing at the edge of a huge cliff, which is crumbling beneath you.

Someone goes, person to person, and reaches down saying, "Take my hand, I will save you from this fall."

Some people reach up and take the hand, and he pulls them out of the danger.

You refuse to take their hand though. You don't want to be obligated to this savior, you are positive you don't need his help. You want to do it on your own. When the ground crumbles, and you fall - you're one of the ones who wasn't saved. Was it the savior's fault?

 

[Tissue]

It's not that simple, TexasSky. What about the men and women born into Islam? For years upon years, they have been a Muslim. It becomes their identity, and eventually, many stop questioning the validity (in a process familiar to Christianity: eventually people simply stop doubting, not due to actual proof, but due to a lack of comprehension of the conflict. The religious simply becomes natural and assumed, which many people errantly refer to as "faith").

What will happen to them? For us, who are raised in relatively Christian countries (I'm assuming here that most of you are Western), this seems easily countered by the idea that God's grace is freely available to all, and all will feel the Spirit tugging on their heart, but it is not that simple. There are safeguards against other religions within the doctrine of Islam (just as there are safeguards within Christianity against other religions).

Eternity is a really long time. I have a hard time shrugging off this question with the conjecture that everyone has equal opportunity for salvation.

Personally, I am a hopeful universalist. This is one of my big struggles with the Christian faith.

 

[Nadiine]

YES, it's fair. It's not only fair, it's necessary.

But I'd ask, who is man to decide that God isn't fair in His judgments? God is sovereign & Holy - He knows why the moral laws over man were set... & He knows alot more than us (in our sin-corrupted status).
So man is not even FIT or qualified to Judge God as to what 's fair and isn't fair.

Romans 9:
20 On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God?
The thing molded will not say to the molder, "Why did you make me like this," will it?
21 Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use?

Secondly, God PROVIDED the means of escape by His own personal sacrifice to bridge that gap where man could come to Him.
It is no longer God's "fault" if people want to reject the price He paid, esp. when it provides so much.

Third, it doesn't matter to God what we think about His laws... we will be judged by them; they are over the entire universe. Universal [moral] laws.
In the book of Kings, God left only 7000 in all of Israel who hadn't worshipped Baal.

Ezekiel 18:4
"Behold, all souls are Mine; the soul of the father as well as the soul of the son is Mine The soul who sins will die.

What's most important is, Jesus Christ came in humility to lower Himself and abide by the same law He established.
He came and died a brutal death - in our place when He hadn't sinned (fulfilling the law for us) so that we could live with Him eternally.

Last, God in His love promised to end all sin & evil and restore the world to it's rightful condition. In order to do that, God has to judge all evil and contain it somewhere where it will never be able to corrupt that new creation again.
Sin doesn't "go away" without a sacrifice of life - and ONLY the life of Christ (who is God: perfect, sinless) removes sin.
Hebrews 10:4
For it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins.

At judgment, we're either under Christ's sacrifice thru FAITH in Him, or we're under the penalty of the Law & must pay for our own.
Thru Christ (by our faith in Him as Saviour), our sins are already taken away by Him... everyone who rejected God & refused to repent have their sins and they are responsible to pay for their own - they will eternally pay for those under the law. (2nd death).

Then evil will be judged and separated from the new creation eternally.
So yes, it's fair... if God doesn't send the unrepentant to Gehenna (along w/ hell and Death), evil will forever continue to corrupt all that He restores - death, suffering, disease & pain will always continue... if God allowed that, THAT would be unfair

 

[Ave Maria]

Yes, it is perfectly fair. That is the way God set up things and the way God sets up things is always fair.

 

[QuakerOats]

No, I don't believe it's fair, or just that some people would be condemned to hell, if by hell you mean 'eternal punishment, and with no option of reform, or chance for parole.' If man can manage to give offenders a second chance, or third chance, then surely God can, as well. To me, God cannot truly be God, or all-merciful, or all-forgiving, if at some point, he ceases to forgive. God should be beyond that type of boundary, and I believe in that wholeheartedly.

 

[Nadiine]

No, I don't believe it's fair, or just that some people would be condemned to hell, if by hell you mean 'eternal punishment, and with no option of reform, or chance for parole.' If man can manage to give offenders a second chance, or third chance, then surely God can, as well. To me, God cannot truly be God, or all-merciful, or all-forgiving, if at some point, he ceases to forgive. God should be beyond that type of boundary, and I believe in that wholeheartedly.

I notice here that you only pick out the attributes of God that pertain to your comfort and happiness ... but you ignored God's attributes of Holiness, purity, righteousness, wrath and justice.
He is ALL of those attributes, not just the "nice" ones.
Holiness and justice demand that sin be dealt with - that IS love.

I'm wondering why you leave other attributes out as if God is only a few things that you like? (& this is why I keep emphasizing how corrupted we are by our sin nature. You demand God to be what YOU want Him to be so you get what you want).
This is man's sinful nature & why I believe we are not fit to judge God in our current state.

Would you dislike God if He were what the Bible fully portrays Him to be with all His attributes?

 

[Tissue]

YES, it's fair. It's not only fair, it's necessary.

But I'd ask, who is man to decide that God isn't fair in His judgments? God is sovereign & Holy - He knows why the moral laws over man were set... & He knows alot more than us (in our sin-corrupted status).
So man is not even FIT or qualified to Judge God as to what 's fair and isn't fair.

Then how can you know for sure that this stance is correct/fair? You cannot. You are operating from human interpretation of Scripture, not Divine Reason.

Your argument destructs your stance.

Secondly, God PROVIDED the means of escape by His own personal sacrifice to bridge that gap where man could come to Him.
It is no longer God's "fault" if people want to reject the price He paid, esp. when it provides so much.

What if not everyone has an equal opportunity to accept that offer? What about the man who cannot believe because he simply did not have enough facts/evidence? What about the woman raised in Islam all of her life? It's not as if God gives us all an easily understandble piece of paper that says "Do you want to go to hell, yes or no?" If that were the case, I'd agree with you, but this is not how it works.

Third, it doesn't matter to God what we think about His laws... we will be judged by them; they are over the entire universe. Universal [moral] laws.
In the book of Kings, God left only 7000 in all of Israel who hadn't worshipped Baal.

But our capacity to accept Him does matter to God. There is an element of subjectivity in there, going off the assumption that infants, those who never hear the Gospel, and mentally handicapped individuals who cannot understand will make it into heaven, which most Christians seem to believe. Perhaps the moral laws are universal and objective, but is the judgment truly the same for everyone? What about the man raised in a hypothetical culture with morals directly opposed to God's? Are we so certain of the human conscience, so certain of the universal ministry of the Holy Spirit that that man would know the difference?

Last, God in His love promised to end all sin & evil and restore the world to it's rightful condition. In order to do that, God has to judge all evil and contain it somewhere where it will never be able to corrupt that new creation again.

Why can sin be wiped on this side of eternity and not the next? Is it not at least possible that hell will be a refinery, and in a million or so years, people can make it to heaven?

I'm hoping here. There are some wonderful people that went to hell that didn't necessarily hate Jesus, but simply couldn't believe in Him. I have trouble understanding a God who would send people to hell for all of eternity.

And please, please, PLEASE do not parrot some plasticky, quick, clean-cut answer for this predicament. I've heard them all, and still I question. I understand that God is divine judgment. I understand that the wages of sin are death. I also understand that God grieves over every lost soul. If this is the case, would he not grieve for all of eternity due to the souls in hell?

Sin doesn't "go away" without a sacrifice of life - and ONLY the life of Christ (who is God: perfect, sinless) removes sin.
Hebrews 10:4
For it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins.

At judgment, we're either under Christ's sacrifice thru FAITH in Him, or we're under the penalty of the Law & must pay for our own.
Thru Christ (by our faith in Him as Saviour), our sins are already taken away by Him... everyone who rejected God & refused to repent have their sins and they are responsible to pay for their own - they will eternally pay for those under the law. (2nd death).

Why eternally? Why the idea of payment? If Jesus' blood is so saving, why can He not be accepted after judgment?

 

[Danyc]

So what happens to the people who were raised in a society that did not believe in God? Are they punished for something that wasn't their fault? Eternity in hell because they never had a chance? It was impossible? That it was by chance that a missionary would ever be sent to them? And even then most religions have safeguards against other religions. The man would not know the difference.

Is this his fault? A JUST God would never send somebody to hell in these circumstances.

 

[QuakerOats]

I notice here that you only pick out the attributes of God that pertain to your comfort and happiness ... but you ignored God's attributes of Holiness, purity, righteousness, wrath and justice.
He is ALL of those attributes, not just the "nice" ones.
Holiness and justice demand that sin be dealt with - that IS love.

I'm wondering why you leave other attributes out as if God is only a few things that you like? (& this is why I keep emphasizing how corrupted we are by our sin nature. You demand God to be what YOU want Him to be so you get what you want).
This is man's sinful nature & why I believe we are not fit to judge God in our current state.

Would you dislike God if He were what the Bible fully portrays Him to be with all His attributes?

I don't believe I did ignore the attributes of holiness, purity, righteousness and justice. In fact, I believe I insisted upon them. As for wrath, I did not intentionally leave it out. I believe that God embodies wrath, and that it can be beneficial, but as with all things, there are some attributes that are, dare I say, 'better' to aspire to than others. If God is a God of wisdom, and surely he is, he knows to temper his wrath with mercy, and compassion, which I believe he does. I don't believe this means letting the accused go unpunished, but I do believe this means no eternal punishment.

The God portrayed in the Old Testament is an interesting one. Yes, some of the things he was, or is attributed to are horrific, but is it real history, allegory, both? In any case, it's a testament that says more about the thoughts, beliefs, and actions, etc., of the early Jews than anything, or anyone else. To answer your question though, if God really did do some of the things mentioned of him, no, I wouldn't be too fond of him, as I don't believe he would be a God of mercy, justice, compassion, holiness, righteousness, etc., not to all people, and not without grossly distorting the meaning of each.

I was asked for my opinion, and I gave it.

 

[Nadiine]

Then how can you know for sure that this stance is correct/fair? You cannot. You are operating from human interpretation of Scripture, not Divine Reason.

Your argument destructs your stance

No it doesn't. God didnt' leave us without TRUTH we could know. I use HIS WORD. That tells us who He is, what His plan is, why it is, what we need to do, and the future.

If we couldn't know truth of God, then none of us could know God or who God was. And by that, I can say what I do (knowing His condemnation is fair/just) by HIS word of truth given to us. (that is, unless the Bible is rejected as truth - which many do subjectively reject).

What if not everyone has an equal opportunity to accept that offer? What about the man who cannot believe because he simply did not have enough facts/evidence? What about the woman raised in Islam all of her life? It's not as if God gives us all an easily understandble piece of paper that says "Do you want to go to hell, yes or no?" If that were the case, I'd agree with you, but this is not how it works.

Honestly - this doesn't matter - the "what if's" don't matter. God's attribute is that He is JUST. That means, He judges with full knowledge of each person's knowledge of Light (the revelation they have of Him) and what they do with that light. Romans 1:18-32 & Romans 2:14-15 tells us this. Vs. 32 of Rom. 1 is clear that the people living in the immorality - who God turned over to depravity as they continued rejecting His truth - KNOW they deserve death, but go on to promote others doing the sin as well.

The truth is this, we all know right from wrong by inner conscience given to us by God (His laws written on man's heart) - it's the same moral law that existed prior to the Torah being written in Genesis. All know God exists due to Creation alone which points to an intelligent Designer.
& how about this aspect -- the b illions who have lived during the grace period, & who have had access to the Scriptures, STILL REJECT GOD at record rates. (the majority reject even WITH full light!). I wouldn't worry about the ones that have much less.
Hebrews 10:29
27but a terrifying expectation of judgment and THE FURY OF A FIRE WHICH WILL CONSUME THE ADVERSARIES.
28Anyone who has set aside the Law of Moses dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses.
How much severer punishment do you think he will deserve who has trampled under foot the Son of God, and has regarded as unclean the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has insulted the Spirit of grace?

But our capacity to accept Him does matter to God. There is an element of subjectivity in there, going off the assumption that infants, those who never hear the Gospel, and mentally handicapped individuals who cannot understand will make it into heaven, which most Christians seem to believe. Perhaps the moral laws are universal and objective, but is the judgment truly the same for everyone? What about the man raised in a hypothetical culture with morals directly opposed to God's? Are we so certain of the human conscience, so certain of the universal ministry of the Holy Spirit that that man would know the difference?

GOD IS A JUST JUDGE. Do you accept that? Do you not think there are levels of punishment? Even human courts know that it's unjust to sentence a person who steals a paperclip from the office with the same punishment as one who abuses a child.

There are levels of reward for Believers as there are levels of punishment for sin. I personally believe that while they may be separated from God eternally, their "torment" won't be as horrific as people paint it to be.

Those types of issues of "certain" people aren't the issue tho. The Topic is, is it FAIR since we all sin - and the answer is still yes. We don't cloud that fact with the "what if's" that lead us to judging God. Let God be the judge of all the individual details of each soul according to what HE knows about them (everything incl. why they did or said each thing).
They may not be as innocent as it might look outwardly to us.

Why can sin be wiped on this side of eternity and not the next? Is it not at least possible that hell will be a refinery, and in a million or so years, people can make it to heaven?

Becuz His system of salvation is "FAITH", not PROOF. Plus, His system is spelled out in the Bible: "for it is appointed man once to die, then judgment".
Judgement is the next phase after physical life. Not evauation for a 2nd chance.
We can't "redo it" again & obey the 2nd time; this is IT.
Otherwise, if the lost get a 2nd chance, we should too!!

& let me ask how "FAIR" it is to all the many Christians who centuries earlier LIVED for God - martyred their lives, were persecuted or tortured for their faith when all the very people who persecuted them get in too?
Why did they live the life God tells them to in the Bible (forsaking personal pleasures), then God just lets their enemies in anyways?
I don't call THAT fair! They believed God by Faith as He commanded.

I'm hoping here. There are some wonderful people that went to hell that didn't necessarily hate Jesus, but simply couldn't believe in Him. I have trouble understanding a God who would send people to hell for all of eternity.

I explained why hell is mandatory for the restored earth in my earlier post if you want to read that. It explains why it's necessary.
But this is YOUR FLESH/SIN NATURE speaking out. People do look "good" and "wonderful" to us... but we aren't looking at them like God does. He sees sin alot differently than us (yes, I include myself there).
The reason His judgment looks so harsh to us is becuz we're tainted from the very corruption He seeks to destroy & end.
You are NOT "holy", you don't see the full picture God sees. God sees us in a different light, and is purely perfect in every way; in all His attributes & He cannot allow sin to continue forever.

Another issue, the God we're taught today is usually watered down to "love only"... we're being taught the PC version of God as people are refusing to hear that they aren't as wonderful as they think they are.
and this is feeding the denial of hell/punishment.
1) Man is told how GOOD he is
2) Man is told that God is nonjudgmental & loving.
Result: a watered down god that is in heaven just to give us what we demand when we want it.
(or else we attack Him with blame).

I know why people can't accept these facts, they're taught a different god that has no wrath, no anger, no fury, no justice, no punishment or rebuke.. just "LOVE" and blessings, kindness, goodness... etc.
Have you read the end of Job where God replies to him? (ch. 38-41)

And please, please, PLEASE do not parrot some plasticky, quick, clean-cut answer for this predicament. I've heard them all, and still I question. I understand that God is divine judgment. I understand that the wages of sin are death. I also understand that God grieves over every lost soul. If this is the case, would he not grieve for all of eternity due to the souls in hell?

Well I hate pat answers too... it's the main reason I did so much study of scripture myself. When I sought help in all my trouble, that's mainly all I got & I can't tell you how sick of it I was becuz it didn't help me. I was so frustrated.

Anyways, No, I don't believe He would and the reason why is when I see the examples of His actions (in His wrath & justice & holiness). To start, God is the same yesterday, today and forever. He does not change who He is. The OT God is the same God we have today in the NT only under a different covenant after full revelation of His gospel is given (making us more responsible for our decisions & actions.)

Read Proverbs 1 - http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=24&chapter=1&version=49&context=chapter
wisdom personified -- but it's talking about the people who reject the wisdom & knowledge of God. It speaks of 'laughing at their calamity' and other harsh statements of getting what they deserve for rejection of God's wisdom & truth.

And don't forget, the same God who everyone admits is pure love, is ALSO able right now to allow little kids to be abused & molested daily, women raped, His own people tortured & murdered, people who are starving, people with terminal diseases, old people being beaten up & robbed, the homeless to be homeless who get attacked by kids with baseball bats for "fun"... mass genocides, animals are abused continually in horrific ways...
Every sick evil thing that happens, God knew it would happen & allowed it.
Would any of us be able to allow those things to happen to "good people"? Innocent children? I sure couldn't let it happen, but God can in His ultimate plan that we don't know. (becuz God can & does use/turn evil for good).

The same God that can allow all this, is the same God that will grant people their wishes of being eternally separated from Him and charged with their own sins.

**One other aspect, God CAN "shut them out of His mind" too. "forget" them... like our sins are "forgotten" once they're judged. That isn't impossible for Him to manage.
Isaiah 65:17
[ New Heavens and a New Earth ] "For behold, I create new heavens and a new earth;
And the former things will not be remembered or come to mind.

Why eternally? Why the idea of payment? If Jesus' blood is so saving, why can He not be accepted after judgment?

All souls are eternal; we're made in His own image.
Matthew 25:46
"These will go away into eternal punishment,
but the righteous into eternal life."

Why payment? Sin cannot end until it's judged & sentenced/paid & put away - only Christ's blood removes it. He paid for sin, but anyone rejecting His sacrifice in their place, has to pay for their own. (containment in Gehenna; separated from God & the restored creation).


& Why can't man accept God NOW when God's revealed Himself & died for us?
After seeing God & facing judgment, is it faith anymore? And again, what of the Christians who *by faith* followed the Bible & lived by God's commands & "died to sin" here when God just lets everyone else in after they see God & have Him proven?
It would also make His word a LIE. He teaches otherwise in scripture.

John 3:19
And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world,
and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

I don't know exactly why God's laws are made the way they are... we may never know all that until we meet Him face to face. I just accept how much He's told us.

*sorry so long!!

 

[Tissue]

No it doesn't. God didnt' leave us without TRUTH we could know. I use HIS WORD. That tells us who He is, what His plan is, why it is, what we need to do, and the future.

But our understanding of His Word is filtered through our understanding of language, which is inherently inaccurate in relation to abstract concepts (which Christianity consists of). Our understanding of the abstract concepts are then subconsciously tinted by the context of those concepts in relation to our lives (for example, fatherly love has a different meaning to two different people, one who had a father throughout childhood and another who didn't). All of this tints truth, be it ever so slightly, and it is for this reason that we cannot absolutely know any truth with absolute certainty. Can we be certain enough that we would be stupid to disregard the facts? Yes. Can we know anything with absolute certainty? No.

If we couldn't know truth of God, then none of us could know God or who God was. And by that, I can say what I do (knowing His condemnation is fair/just) by HIS word of truth given to us. (that is, unless the Bible is rejected as truth - which many do subjectively reject).

I accept Scripture as absolute truth. I do not accept intepretations as absolute truth, including my own.

Honestly - this doesn't matter - the "what if's" don't matter. God's attribute is that He is JUST. That means, He judges with full knowledge of each person's knowledge of Light (the revelation they have of Him) and what they do with that light. Romans 1:18-32 & Romans 2:14-15 tells us this. Vs. 32 of Rom. 1 is clear that the people living in the immorality - who God turned over to depravity as they continued rejecting His truth - KNOW they deserve death, but go on to promote others doing the sin as well.

That is one possible interpretation of God's justice.

The truth is this, we all know right from wrong by inner conscience given to us by God (His laws written on man's heart) - it's the same moral law that existed prior to the Torah being written in Genesis. All know God exists due to Creation alone which points to an intelligent Designer.

You sound a lot like Aquinas.

However, a simple study in other cultures shows that there are different moral sets the world over. In some cultures (considered relatively primitive, mind you; that is, untouched by modernity), it is considered entirely alright to have sexual relations outside of marriage. Yet, in that same culture, marriage is absolute, and there is to be no sex outside of marriage, period.

If there is a moral conscience placed within all of us, how can cultures such as these exist? More importantly, where is your Scriptural support for a moral conscience? How can we know this is one aspect of our humanity that has not been tainted or negated by the Fall?

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=65&chapter=10&verse=29&version=49&context=verse

GOD IS A JUST JUDGE. Do you accept that? Do you not think there are levels of punishment? Even human courts know that it's unjust to sentence a person who steals a paperclip from the office with the same punishment as one who abuses a child.

Horrible analogy; to God, sin is sin. This is quite clear Scripturally.

Courts punish, but there is an end to their punishments (even if that end is a life sentence). Eternity has no end.

I have no trouble with the idea of God punishing. I have trouble with the idea of eternal punishment.

There are levels of reward for Believers as there are levels of punishment for sin. I personally believe that while they may be separated from God eternally, their "torment" won't be as horrific as people paint it to be.

And yet, it is an eternity separated from God. Eternity with even the slightest dash of torment is still a completely unbearable concept.

Those types of issues of "certain" people aren't the issue tho. The Topic is, is it FAIR since we all sin - and the answer is still yes. We don't cloud that fact with the "what if's" that lead us to judging God. Let God be the judge of all the individual details of each soul according to what HE knows about them (everything incl. why they did or said each thing).
They may not be as innocent as it might look outwardly to us.

But how guilty are they, if they did not commit the original sin? How guilty are they, if they are given only one opportunity to make things right within a culture in complete conflict with that opportunity? I don't know what goes on within the hearts during that moment of opportunity, but I'm not entirely convinced it's a rapture of exaltation. If it were, everyone would convert as soon as that opportunity struck.

Becuz His system of salvation is "FAITH", not PROOF. Plus, His system is spelled out in the Bible: "for it is appointed man once to die, then judgment".
Judgement is the next phase after physical life. Not evauation for a 2nd chance.

God is all about second chances, assuming (as Christianity tends to think) that we screwed up our first chance with original sin.

Faith is not stupidity, or ignorance. If it were, it would not be a virtue. I could have blind faith in anything: Mormonism, Satan, pantheism, etc. The thought that my eternal destiny is committed to a spin of a roulette wheel (which is the end of your stance) is revolting.

We can't "redo it" again & obey the 2nd time; this is IT.
Otherwise, if the lost get a 2nd chance, we should too!!

We do. We took it on this side of eternity. Why should the second chance dissipate after death, however?

& let me ask how "FAIR" it is to all the many Christians who centuries earlier LIVED for God - martyred their lives, were persecuted or tortured for their faith when all the very people who persecuted them get in too?

Why did they live the life God tells them to in the Bible (forsaking personal pleasures), then God just lets their enemies in anyways?
I don't call THAT fair! They believed God by Faith as He commanded.

I thought we were talking about God's definition of fairness, not your's?

By that same thought, would it be fair for Hugh Hefner to go to heaven if he repents on his deathbed? Christianity says Yes. Mind you, this would be the same heaven those persecuted martyrs go to.

I explained why hell is mandatory for the restored earth in my earlier post if you want to read that. It explains why it's necessary.

I saw it. I wasn't satisfied with your interpretation.

But this is YOUR FLESH/SIN NATURE speaking out. People do look "good" and "wonderful" to us... but we aren't looking at them like God does. He sees sin alot differently than us (yes, I include myself there).

My sin nature? That's a little bit of a rough judgment there, Nadiine. It is compassion that provokes this line of thought. It is love that provokes this line of thought. I thought these were attributes of God? Of our holy nature? Surely not my fleshly/sinful nature?

The reason His judgment looks so harsh to us is becuz we're tainted from the very corruption He seeks to destroy & end.

If we are so tainted, how can you be so certain of absolute truth?

Eternity is infinitely harsh, by nature. If God even has an ounce of mercy, how can He issue such a punishment? This is not a question stemming from sin, or corruption. This is a genuine search for God.

You are NOT "holy", you don't see the full picture God sees.

Yes I am, and so are you. We're Christians.

God sees us in a different light, and is purely perfect in every way; in all His attributes & He cannot allow sin to continue forever.

But if the sinful are sent to heaven for eternity, then sin DOES continue to exist forever. If Jesus' blood can wipe sin, why can it not do so after a person dies as well?

Another issue, the God we're taught today is usually watered down to "love only"...

we're being taught the PC version of God as people are refusing to hear that they aren't as wonderful as they think they are.
and this is feeding the denial of hell/punishment.
1) Man is told how GOOD he is
2) Man is told that God is nonjudgmental & loving.
Result: a watered down god that is in heaven just to give us what we demand when we want it.
(or else we attack Him with blame).

While I agree this is an issue in modern Christianity, I hope you do not plan to lump my concerns in with that issue. This is the stuff of plastic evangelism, not sincere theological questioning of a person well-acquainted with Christian doctrine.

**One other aspect, God CAN "shut them out of His mind" too. "forget" them... like our sins are "forgotten" once they're judged. That isn't impossible for Him to manage.
Isaiah 65:17
[ New Heavens and a New Earth ] "For behold, I create new heavens and a new earth;
And the former things will not be remembered or come to mind.

He is referring to the old heavens and the old earth here, as best can be judged from the context. Not explicitly referring to sin.

& Why can't man accept God NOW when God's revealed Himself & died for us?
After seeing God & facing judgment, is it faith anymore? And again, what of the Christians who *by faith* followed the Bible & lived by God's commands & "died to sin" here when God just lets everyone else in after they see God & have Him proven?

"Is it not lawful for me to do what I wish with what is my own? Or is your eye envious because I am generous?" -Matthew 20:15

I'm aware this verse is not explicitly referring to what I describe. I'm merely throwing the precedent out there.

 

[revrobor]

It's perfectly fair and the choice is made by an individual not God.

 

[Tissue]

What is perfectly fair?

What is the choice?

Who is the individual that makes this choice?

 

[SpiritDriven]

A lot of you people are in for a rude shock about how God will eventualy bring about the Salvation of all by the time of the consumation....

You have no idea how God will bring this about because you know only the teachings of men....who have been blinded for a season.

I could have written a long document fully supported by correctly translation scripture....of what use would that be ? you are shut up in disobedience.

I will drop you a hint about Gods over arching plan for man though....what happened at the Cross was out of Love...not Justice.


Grace and Peace to you all....always.

 

[Nadiine]

A lot of you people are in for a rude shock about how God will eventualy bring about the Salvation of all by the time of the consumation....

You have no idea how God will bring this about because you know only the teachings of men....who have been blinded for a season.

Hmmm, so what you're "taught" isn't ALSO by "men"? I guess GOD has enlightened you in universalism, but those who reject it are taught by fallible, fallen men.

I could have written a long document fully supported by correctly translation scripture....

so could I

of what use would that be ? you are shut up in disobedience.

Exactly what disobedience are we guilty of?
Universalism negates the gospel being spread when everyone can just live in their chosen lifestyles of sin and worship of false gods... only to recieve heaven anyways.
They don't "lose one life to gain the next", they GAIN BOTH LIVES and have full pleasure of both which goes against the very theme of the gospel message itself.
(taking up your cross daily)

Matthew 5:20
"For I say to you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will not enter the kingdom of heaven.

Matthew 7:21
" Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.

Matthew 18:3
and said, "Truly I say to you, unless you are converted and become like children, you will not enter the kingdom of heaven.
Mark 10:15
"Truly I say to you, whoever does not receive the kingdom of God like a child will not enter it at all."

Matthew 23:13
[ Eight Woes ] " But woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites, because you shut off the kingdom of heaven from people;
for you do not enter in yourselves, nor do you allow those who are entering to go in.

Mark 9:47
" If your eye causes you to stumble, throw it out; it is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye, than, having two eyes, to be cast into hell,

John 3:5
Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

Galatians 5:21
..envying, drunkenness, carousing, and things like these, of which I forewarn you, just as I have forewarned you, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

Ephesians 5:5
For this you know with certainty, that no immoral or impure person or covetous man, who is an idolater, has an inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God.

[*I'd add a note here - that NOWHERE do any of the verses tell us or even hint that the lost/unrepentant people ENTER THE KINGDOM LATER AFTER THEY MEET GOD FACE TO FACE, OR ENDURE SOME PUNISHMENT AND THEN GET RELEASED INTO HEAVEN.

These are emphatic statements that warn us that certain people (unrepentant, without salvation) will NEVER inherit God's kingdom. ]

Matthew 7:13
"Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it.
14 "For the gate is small and the way is narrow that leads to life, and there are few who find it

1 Corinthians 6:9
Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, 10nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God.

1 Peter 3:
17 For the time [is come] that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if [it] first [begin] at us, what shall the end [be] of them that obey not the gospel of God?
18 And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?

(short commentary http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-....html#0&*David+Guzik&&Select.x=27&Select.y=17
See lower page for vss. 14-19)

I will drop you a hint about Gods over arching plan for man though....what happened at the Cross was out of Love...not Justice.

That's not true, it's out of love and justice - God's attributes working together in complete harmony - in fact, it's more than those 2, His HOLINESS also demanded this.

It's due to God's holiness and justice that Christ had to DIE in the first place
Galatians 4:4
But when the fullness of the time came, God sent forth His Son, born of a woman, born under the Law,
5 so that He might redeem those who were under the Law, that we might receive the adoption as sons

God's LAW is Holy and Just: demanding life blood to atone for the soul (the soul that sins shall die). There is no other way to remove sin.
God's Holiness demands that sin be judged, punished & done away with,
God's love for us brought Him to save us,
GOD'S JUSTICE DEMANDED HIS BLOOD & DEATH - the ransom - for remission of sin.

It wasn't love only, ALL God's attributes work together in perfect unity to provide the plan of salvation to those who accept Him.
The problem today is people's warped worldview of God's Love. People are creating a god of love to fit their personal understanding & postmodern preferences, but it's not what the Bible teaches.

 

[justsurfing]

I saw you asked if "hell" could be a refinery fire where after millions of years people could come out. (God is much more efficient in His refinery processes, imo.)

The lake of fire is a refining fire and a consuming fire. It is not hell. Hell is thrown into the lake of fire and destroyed with death and all evil.

To consume is to destroy. If something were not consumed when it was burned... I spose it could "keep burning". But when something is consumed when it is burned... the refining process has destroyed.

On the last day, Jesus raises all the Father has given Him.

No one will spend eternity in hell.

Jesus paid the ransom for all men... and all sin shall be destroyed.

God will recreate all through living faith by grace in the Lord Jesus Christ.

Merry Christmas.

 

[justsurfing]

No, it is not fair for any person to go to hell to spend hell in eternity.

Why?

Because God's justice has already been perfectly satisfied in Jesus Christ and the price has already been paid.

Ever hear of "double jeopardy"?

You cannot try the same person twice for the same offense - or punish them twice for the same sins.

All of the sins of the entire world were laid upon Jesus Christ. God's wrath and justice have already been fully satisfied for all eternity.

That is why people will be held until such time as they are destroyed... who have not repented and believed in this life... and they shall be recreated and given the same grace were given.

They will become new creations. The Hitler you see in Heaven will not be the same person who sinned on earth. He will be born-again as a new creation and Hitler will be just as perfect as anyone else... and just as completely full of the love of God in Christ.

Do any of you claim the body and blood of Jesus Christ wasn't "good enough" to cleanse the sin of Hitler? For God's justice to be fully satisfied?

How dare you say that the sins of Hitler exceed the grace of God and the power of the blood of Jesus Christ!

Is it "fair" that anyone goes to Heaven by twisted rules that don't include God's grace being greater than our sins?

The only "fair" thing, now, is for everyone to go to Heaven.

Anything less would be "double jeopardy"... and Satan being paid twice the ransom for all men.

Nope.

God's not that bad of a planner.

Jesus paid for all those sins once. Satan isn't collecting anything more for eternity.

(Funny how as men "kick against the goad"... they take Satan's side and declare he's still owed blood.)

The blood of Jesus is all-sufficient. Paid in full. Satan's collection agency can go to hell... and be burned up and destroyed.

God ain't payin' him again!

Merry Christmas

 

[Danyc]

There is no other way to remove sin.

Now you're placing limits on God. God can do anything, can't He? I'm positive he has a myriad of ways to remove sin while being Just at the same time that did not have to involve allowing his Son to die.

God could be Just and simply let us all into Heaven in our sin anyways. To say he could not would be placing limits on a limitless, omnipotent God. Do you disagree?

 

[justsurfing]

The only limits on Love are consistent with the character of Love.

Love is unlimited.

But if there was no destruction of sin... then how would Heaven be different than earth?

Some people go through hell on earth.

Danyc, do you agree that "sin" is something that harms one neighbor?

And Love does one's neighbor no harm?

Do you believe there will be "sin" - or harm - allowed in Heaven?

Blessings.

Merry Christmas.