Yes, children were present in household baptisms. Biblical evidence.

[Major1]

Jesus said baptize all nations, infants are apart of all nations.

If I surveyed 30 Fifth graders from the poorest academic school in the nation and asked them "Are infants apart of a nation?"

Their answer would be yes.

The question here is: Are you smarter than a Fifth Grader?

Infants are apart of all nations. To affirm contrary is a joke.

And if infants are not apart of all nations, what are they? Goats?

This has become an exercise in total futility!

You will believe whatever YOU choose and you do not need me to tell you that.

I in all respect can not continue to have this insane conversation.

You may have the last word because.......I just do not care!

 

[Major1]

This is categorically untrue; I have discussed the actual history of the early church and Emperor Constantine’s involvement several times and am disinclined to repeat myself, but suffice it to say, Constantine’s son Constantius became an Arian, and the early church, founded by the Holy Apostles including Saints Peter, Paul and Thomas (who collectively established the largest number of permanent churches), along with Saints John, James the Just, Andrew, and the other Apostles, was persecuted by the non-Trinitarian Arian church from roughly the time St. Athanasius was exiled in 336 AD (when St. Constantine was still on the throne, but his pious mother St. Helena had reposed, and he was likely senile, and was being manipulated by the sinister bishop Eusebius of Nicomedia), until at least 386 AD. And then, while the dogmatic persecution stopped, we had the grotesque spectacle of Eudoxia conspiring with Theophilus of Alexandria to depose St. John Chrysostom after he criticized her for purchasing a solid gold toilet (or the fourth century equivalent thereof…the Romans did have plumbing).

Physical persecution resumed in the 6th century with the genocidal persecution of the Oriental Orthodox under Emperor Justinian, then in the 7th century the Emperor of the time decided it would be a good idea to cut off the tongue of St. Maximus the Confessor for his opposing the Monothelite heresy (which had been supported decades earlier by Pope Honorius I of Rome; it was around the time of St. Maximus declared anathema by the Sixth Ecumenical Council). And then the Empire decided to enforce iconoclasm, and horribly persecuted Iconodules, despite the ruling of the Second Council of Nicaea in 787 AD that Iconoclasm was forbidden. This lasted until 843 AD. Only after this time did the adversarial relationship between the Church and the Byzantine Empire cease, as instead a new adversarial relationship between the Carolignian Holy Roman Empire and the Roman church, and between the Roman church and the Eastern Orthodox church, and between the Byzantine Empire and Venice in the West and the Muslims in the East, both eager to divide up the remaining Byzantine lands. Spoiler: the Muslims won, although their path to victory was greatly aided by the Fourth Crusade, in which Venice under the pretense of liberating the Holy Land once more instead just conquered Constantinople.

Historical Scholars allege that his main objective was to gain unanimous approval and submission to his authority from all classes, and therefore chose Christianity to conduct his political propaganda, believing that it was the most appropriate religion that could fit with the Imperial cult

In 313 AD, the Emperor Constantine issued the Edict of Milan, which accepted Christianity: 10 years later, it had become the official religion of the Roman Empire.

Constantine became emperor in 306 AD and ruled for 31 years. According to tradition, just before the battle of the Milvian Bridge (Rome) in 312, he experienced a vision of a flaming cross with the inscription ''In his sign conquer''.

As the legends say, he understood it as a sign from the Christian God asking him to convert. Constantine believed that he would be awarded with unusual power, the support of a deity, and the greatest kingdom of the world if he followed through with the vision.
Source: Ancient Origins Magazine | Ancient Origins Members Site (ancient-origins.net)

 

[prodromos]

just so you know, I care even less than that about what any Catholic apologist said

The epitome of anti-Catholicism.

 

[prodromos]

Historical Scholars allege

Which ones would they be?

 

[BNR32FAN]

I'm afraid your argument works against you in the verses you have stated as in Acts it doe NOT mention children, which, it would be expected if it was the case that children were present. If you want to associate the words children and household, then only when both children and household are present would it mean children are present.

The word household includes everyone living in the house. This would include children, friends, family, etc.

 

[bbbbbbb]

It's the same point in why children were circumcised in the OT.

Young children do have a spiritual life even though they do not have a full understanding of things. Baptism is simply becoming part of the family of God.
`Train up a child in the way he should go: and when he is old, he will not depart from it. ' (Prov. 22:6.)

Circumcision was only for male children in the Old Testament as a sign to distinguish them from the Gentiles, most of whom did not engage in the practice. Does your church baptize females?

One of the other difficulties in transferring the concept of circumcision to baptism, is what happened to children who turned out to be rebellious. In the Old Testament it was the parents' duty to stone these children to death. I am not aware of any Christian group which practices that, even though there have been multitudes of baptized children who became really nasty adults. One needs look no farther than Vladimir Putin today.

 

[bbbbbbb]

The word household includes everyone living in the house. This would include children, friends, family, etc.

And also all servants and slaves.

 

[Pavel Mosko]

One of the other difficulties in transferring the concept of circumcision to baptism, is what happened to children who turned out to be rebellious. In the Old Testament it was the parents' duty to stone these children to death. I am not aware of any Christian group which practices that, even though there have been multitudes of baptized children who became really nasty adults. One needs look no farther than Vladimir Putin today.

That's not a problem when you reference the epistles of Saint Paul, those of the other apostles and the Apostolic Fathers who do not call for it.


Matthew 18:18-20
Truly, I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven. Again I say to you, if two of you agree on earth about anything they ask, it will be done for them by my Father in heaven. For where two or three are gathered in my name, there am I among them.”


BINDING AND LOOSING - JewishEncyclopedia.com



By the way this also is implied in the Lexical meaning of apostle being something like an emissary sent by a king.

 

[prodromos]

One needs look no farther than Vladimir Putin today

Why even look that far when you've got Joe Biden and Nancy Pelosi in your own backyard?

 

[Valletta]

I will be more than happy to debate with you but I really do not think that you will want to.

To say or think that the CATHOLIC church was the original Church that Jesus founded is an example of how effective the TCC has been in changing real history.. The Roman Catholic Church is not the “original” or “true” church. It does not date back to the first century, or to the apostle Peter, as it claims to do. In fact it really began to develop properly from AD 312, when the Roman Emperor, Constantine alleged that he had become a Christian.

He did so because he said that he had seen a vision of a cross in the sky and when he was successful in a subsequent battle he attributed it to this. As a result, this Roman Emperor, who had known nothing other than paganism all his life, suddenly “joined” the early fourth century church in Rome. He effectively took it over.

Thus, overnight, the real church, which had existed for three centuries, and which had had to be underground for some of that time due to persecution, was suddenly legal.

Now that is REAL history but again, I am more than happy to discuss this with you.

Up until the time of Constantine the Catholic religion was the subject of persecution, not just Peter but pope after pope was martyred. At the time of Constantine the Catholic Church was still deciding what books to put into the Bible, the list was close to when the Catholic Church gave the world the Bible later in the 300s but not the same. Masses with readings from the Gospels had been held in secret, but now Catholics could build proper churches to house Our Lord. Still it took maybe ten to twenty years to begin building churches, a good deal of thought went into how those churches should be constructed. Constantine allowed the freedom of religion although he never became a Catholic. It is said that he joined one of the offshoot Christian religions on his deathbed but no one knows for sure.

 

[bbbbbbb]

Why even look that far when you've got Joe Biden and Nancy Pelosi in your own backyard?

True enough. Point taken.

 

[Valletta]

You quoting from extra biblical material. Extra biblical material is NEVER to interpret Scripture.

This practice is not allowed by Sola Scripture, plus it goes against the Sufficiency of Scripture. Meaning the exact divine words of Scripture is all that is needed for faith and life of the Christian faith.

You need an understanding of language in order to be able to read Sacred Scripture. What a word means is based on history--extra biblical material. In order to fully understand the OT you need a further knowledge of Jewish idioms. How can we be sure a passage in the Bible is to be taken literally? We can verify that with history. Was Job a real person--without history how is one to determine?

 

[Valletta]

And also all servants and slaves.

There was a debate at Carthage in the 200s as to how many days to wait before baptizing an infant.

 

[bbbbbbb]

That's not a problem when you reference the epistles of Saint Paul, those of the other apostles and the Apostolic Fathers who do not call for it.


Matthew 18:18-20
Truly, I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven. Again I say to you, if two of you agree on earth about anything they ask, it will be done for them by my Father in heaven. For where two or three are gathered in my name, there am I among them.”


BINDING AND LOOSING - JewishEncyclopedia.com



By the way this also is implied in the Lexical meaning of apostle being something like an emissary sent by a king.

The problem, of course, relates to relatively loose biblical interpretation. One simply cannot maintain anything of a close correlation between circumcision and baptism without encountering challenges.

As a side comment related to your statement regarding apostles, the Greek word, as you probably know, is transliterated as apostle and translated as angel and messenger. Like diakonos, it is a very interesting word.

 

[bbbbbbb]

There was a debate at Carthage in the 200s as to how many days to wait before baptizing an infant.

There have always been debates concerning the timing of baptism.

 

[Ain't Zwinglian]

Why even look that far when you've got Joe Biden and Nancy Pelosi in your own backyard?

Pelosi has it worse. She is under church discipline. I wonder if she would get a Christian funeral these circumstances. What got her in hot water with Arch Bishop Cordileone was when she and Chuck Schumer co sponsered a bill before the SCOTUS ruling was released, advocating for restrictionless abortions. This is what prompted the official notification.

Abortion is most horrid. Abortion is the rejection of the gospel for the child. It prohibits the entrance of Kingdom of heaven, and of course is a rejection of baptism.

Jesus said it correctly...."Fear not the one who can kill the body but not the soul. Fear the one who can kill the body and soul." I am not saying aborted children are damned. Nobody can.

But Arch Bishop Cordileone probably warned about the potential "soul" damning decision of abortion.

 

[bbbbbbb]

Pelosi has it worse. She is under church discipline. I wonder if she would get a Christian funeral these circumstances. What got her in hot water with Arch Bishop Cordileone was when she and Chuck Schumer co sponsered a bill before the SCOTUS ruling was released, advocating for restrictionless abortions. This is what prompted the official notification.

Abortion is most horrid. Abortion is the rejection of the gospel for the child. It prohibits the entrance of Kingdom of heaven, and of course is a rejection of baptism.

Jesus said it correctly...."Fear not the one who can kill the body but not the soul. Fear the one who can kill the body and soul." I am not saying aborted children are damned. Nobody can.

But Arch Bishop Cordileone probably warned about the potential "soul" damning decision of abortion.

That raises the enduring problem concerning the souls of those people who perish before birth, which includes not only abortions, but stillbirths. The RCC with its doctrine of inherited sin from Adam solved the problem for many centuries with the doctrine of Limbo. Limbo has gone out of fashion, however, and the RCC has distanced itself from it. Now, it seems to embrace a concept of innocence of the soul not much different than the EOC view so that these individuals do enter heaven (probably without undergoing the torture of Purgatory) automatically. That then creates the ethical problem of the desirability of early death and entrance into heaven rather than a long life with the probability of either hell or, at best, torture in Purgatory until one's temporal sins have been paid for.

 

[Pavel Mosko]

The problem, of course, relates to relatively loose biblical interpretation. One simply cannot maintain anything of a close correlation between circumcision and baptism without encountering challenges.

Sure but that would be covered in another statement I made #78, not addressed to you but another poster speaking of the Faith coming from Judaism as less focused on the individual and more about the family and the tribe. e.g. Like how the festivals were celebrated in Judaism etc.


And that in turn would fit into saint Paul's comments invoking OT scenes in regards to baptism, like the entire nation of Israel passing through the Red Sea.

 

[bbbbbbb]

Sure but that would be covered in another statement I made #78, not addressed to you but another poster speaking of the Faith coming from Judaism as less focused on the individual and more about the family and the tribe. e.g. Like how the festivals were celebrated in Judaism etc.


And that in turn would fit into saint Paul's comments invoking OT scenes in regards to baptism, like the entire nation of Israel passing through the Red Sea.

Christianity really is markedly different from Judaism in many ways, as the writer of the letter to the Hebrews points out. Among many of the differences, it is not an ethnic religion limited to one particular physical nation. It places far more emphasis on personal belief and faith than Judaism ever did. To be a Jew merely requires being born to a Jewish mother and, if you are male, being circumcised. Today there are an exceedingly larger number of Jews who are atheists.

If one's relationship with God is defined merely by baptism then one can be an atheist and still be identified as a Christian. This is the case in many Catholic countries where virtually the entire population has been baptized as infants.

 

[Ain't Zwinglian]

That raises the enduring problem concerning the souls of those people who perish before birth, which includes not only abortions, but stillbirths.

So true. Pelosi has it worse though. Cordileone used the word "scandal" in the Notification. This word has technical theological meaning---a sin that either injures faith or destroys faith. It comes from the greek word scandalon meaning a trap, snare or stumbling block. Jesus used this word....
Matthew 18:6 but whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in Me to stumble, it would be better for him to have a heavy millstone hung around his neck, and to be drowned in the depth of the sea.“Woe to the world because of its stumbling blocks! The import here is immediate death is nothing in comparison to Judgment day.

In 2019 when Pope Francis had a council on the sex abuse scandals in the RCC churches, the world wondered if he was going to use the word "scandalon" to define deviant priests. He did.

The abortionist always commits a "scandalon."