YECism and Sabbatarianism

[shernren]

I don't see challenging a lie as an overblown reaction.

The "lie" that evolution happened or the lie that origins has been proven godless by science? YECism seems to assume that disproving the one will disprove the other but that simply isn't true. The two lies are completely independent. Any scientific interpretation of origins is potentially godless and by playing so much with science, scientific creationism is really fighting the battle with weapons bought from the enemy.

But I digress. In any case, for YECism to be about "upholding the Bible" seems a bit disingenuous when YECism doesn't give serious thought to the implications of the biblical truth it's trying to "uphold". It seems to be far more a reaction to evolution than a response to the Bible's truth ... pretty words notwithstanding.

 

[Gwenyfur]

Why are you trying so hard to prove that the cheque is valid (that the Bible is true and therefore scientifically true) when you're not going to deposit it (examining and meditating over the possible spiritual lessons and their validity)? Why uphold the authority of a cheque which you seem content to leave in a dark drawer once it's proven valid?

And you determined that the Bible (check) isn't being deposited how? You determined in was in a dark drawer how?

And how did you come to the conclusion that Genesis 1 was about the Sabbath (which wasn't established as a covenant until after the fall of man) and not the Creator Himself and His creation?

 

[rmwilliamsll]

how did you come to the conclusion that Genesis 1 was about the Sabbath

one of two possibilities:

God thought the Sabbath so important that He created the universe to make Creation an object lesson that points to and supports the Sabbath.

God thought the Sabbath so important that He used the 7 day=6 work followed by 1 rest as the dominant literary structure of Genesis 1.

The facts of the case are that the structure of Gen1 is fully built around the Sabbath. You have only to read any YECist book or essay to see the words:
day, evening, morning. etc.


you are continuing to confuse the structure of Gen 1, the Sabbath Creation Week with the obligation to observe the Sabbath as a command or ordinance. These are two very different issues.

to shrenren.
thanks for the bank cheque analogy, i sent it to everyone on my "bright" list *grin*

 

[Gwenyfur]

one of two possibilities

God thought the Sabbath so important that He created the universe to make Creation an object lesson that points to and supports the Sabbath.

God thought the Sabbath so important that He used the 7 day=6 work followed by 1 rest as the dominant literary structure of Genesis 1.

The facts of the case are that the structure of Gen1 is fully built around the Sabbath. You have only to read any YECist book or essay to see the words:
day, evening, morning. etc.


you are continuing to confusion the structure of Gen 1, the Sabbath Creation Week with the obligation to observe the Sabbath as a command or ordinance. These are two very different issues.

How are they 2 different issues...if you (and others) are claiming that YEC and Sabbatarianism are so completely tied together that they should be inseparable...

Yet, the Sabbath itself wasn't covenanted until after the fall of man, leaving it as a command for man to rest from his labors and worship G-d for a day...

All of those "G-d though" statements...reading a bit much in...or are you saying you actually know and understand the mind of G-d? brazen

 

[KerrMetric]

Since we aren't Jewish can we use God instead of G-d please.

 

[rmwilliamsll]

How are they 2 different issues...if you (and others) are claiming that YEC and Sabbatarianism are so completely tied together that they should be inseparable...

how our minds work.
look at what i've written.
never did i say YECism and Sabbatarianism are intertwined or inseparable. i said that that the Creation week metaphor is an important element of Gen 1. I am arguing that the very structure of either Creation or of the report of it is inescapably wrapped around the Sabbath. My point about YECist are that they don't recognize this importance.

my evidence is your postings.

all i seem to be able to do is repeat the point that you just don't get.
the structure of Gen1 is built around the Sabbath. this is a distinctively different issue of the requirement of people to keep or honor the Sabbath. all i am concerned about is to point out, like others have done better in this thread, that YECism is not motivated by principles internal to Gen1 but rather it is orientated to and responsive to principles external to Gen1, in particular to modern science. If they had Scripture as their primary orientation they would be talking about the Sabbath, not unable to even see the important of it in Gen 1....

whee. tired fingers. is it really that difficult to see? the structure of Gen 1 is the Sabbath Creation Week. the Sabbath defines a week. the time period of a week is not a natural or astronomic creature, it is fully artificial. from the number 7 to the pattern of 2 triads and the capstone Sabbath, Gen 1 is Sabbatarian in essence and structure.

 

[Gwenyfur]

Since we aren't Jewish can we use God instead of G-d please.

Speak for yourself, I AM Jewish
Thus I do use G-d, and will continue to do so...

 

[Gwenyfur]

How are they 2 different issues...if you (and others) are claiming that YEC and Sabbatarianism are so completely tied together that they should be inseparable...

how our minds work.
look at what i've written.
never did i say YECism and Sabbatarianism are intertwined or inseparable. i said that that the Creation week metaphor is an important element of Gen 1. I am arguing that the very structure of either Creation or of the report of it is inescapably wrapped around the Sabbath. My point about YECist are that they don't recognize this importance.

my evidence is your postings.

all i seem to be able to do is repeat the point that you just don't get.
the structure of Gen1 is built around the Sabbath. this is a distinctively different issue of the requirement of people to keep or honor the Sabbath. all i am concerned about is to point out, like others have done better in this thread, that YECism is not motivated by principles internal to Gen1 but rather it is orientated to and responsive to principles external to Gen1, in particular to modern science. If they had Scripture as their primary orientation they would be talking about the Sabbath, not unable to even see the important of it in Gen 1....

whee. tired fingers. is it really that difficult to see? the structure of Gen 1 is the Sabbath Creation Week. the Sabbath defines a week. the time period of a week is not a natural or astronomic creature, it is fully artificial. from the number 7 to the pattern of 2 triads and the capstone Sabbath, Gen 1 is Sabbatarian in essence and structure.

I will also stress again that as a Jew, I completely understand the significance of the Sabbath, though fail to see why you (who aren't aren't a YEC), would claim to know the mind of G-d when you don't believe His authoritative Torah.

 

[rmwilliamsll]

I will also stress again that as a Jew, I completely understand the significance of the Sabbath, though fail to see why you (who aren't aren't a YEC), would claim to know the mind of G-d when you don't believe His authoritative Torah.

the only claim i have made is the ability to read and to gain something from that exercise.

in reading Genesis 1 i recognize that it is built around the metaphor of a 7 day Creation Week capped by the Sabbath.

i never claimed to know the mind of God. nor have i made any claims about the authoritativeness of the Scriptures. those are your claims, i have not addressed them in any way.

 

[Gwenyfur]

the only claim i have made is the ability to read and to gain something from that exercise.

in reading Genesis 1 i recognize that it is built around the metaphor of a 7 day Creation Week capped by the Sabbath.

i never claimed to know the mind of God. nor have i made any claims about the authoritativeness of the Scriptures. those are your claims, i have not addressed them in any way.

The Creation of G-d is anything but a metaphor. It is a literal 7 day creation. Yes, it is capped by the Sabbath, but not for G-d's rest, but for His creation to recognize His glory, power and majesty. It was made a covenant between man and G-d, created after the fall of Adam and Eve, and put into the Law for His people. I just faile to realize why the importance of a bunch of gentiles observing Sabbath has to do with creation, when their church moved worship to Sunday to honor Messiah's resurrection. Personally, I feel it's rather unimportant and moot for a gentile...after all...are we going to turn Creation v evolution to a debate about Sabbath and it's applicability to gentiles?

Do I believe gentiles should be bound by that law? No, that would make me no different than the judaeizers of Acts. Do I observe Sabbath, yes...along with the rest of the Torah...does that make my faith or belief stronger than a gentile who ignores the law? No...it just means that I'm bound to the L-rd not only through the Abrahamic covenant, but also the new covenant of the Messiah

If you don't claim to know the mind of G-d, then try to refrain from the use of the phrase "G-d thought"

 

[KerrMetric]

Speak for yourself, I AM Jewish
Thus I do use G-d, and will continue to do so...

Well you are not practising Judaism are you?

 

[Gwenyfur]

I am a Torah observant saved by the Messiah jew, under the law and under His covenant.

Why does it matter to you so much that I keep the tradition of respecting the name of G-d?

What part of that respect do you find offensive? Why does it offend you? In fact why does it matter to you that I respect His name?

 

[KerrMetric]

I am a Torah observant saved by the Messiah jew, under the law and under His covenant.

Why does it matter to you so much that I keep the tradition of respecting the name of G-d?

What part of that respect do you find offensive? Why does it offend you? In fact why does it matter to you that I respect His name?

Just a question, were you born Jewish?

 

[rmwilliamsll]

The Creation of G-d is anything but a metaphor. It is a literal 7 day creation. Yes, it is capped by the Sabbath, but not for G-d's rest, but for His creation to recognize His glory, power and majesty. It was made a covenant between man and G-d, created after the fall of Adam and Eve, and put into the Law for His people. I just faile to realize why the importance of a bunch of gentiles observing Sabbath has to do with creation, when their church moved worship to Sunday to honor Messiah's resurrection. Personally, I feel it's rather unimportant and moot for a gentile...after all...are we going to turn Creation v evolution to a debate about Sabbath and it's applicability to gentiles?

Do I believe gentiles should be bound by that law? No, that would make me no different than the judaeizers of Acts. Do I observe Sabbath, yes...along with the rest of the Torah...does that make my faith or belief stronger than a gentile who ignores the law? No...it just means that I'm bound to the L-rd not only through the Abrahamic covenant, but also the new covenant of the Messiah

If you don't claim to know the mind of G-d, then try to refrain from the use of the phrase "G-d thought"

that is one problem with this discussion.
it is apparent that some people wish to accelerate the process of understanding the text.

i am interesting in approaching the topic systematically, from first reading the text. what does it say? what are the important metaphors and structures?

everytime i try to address simply an idea in Gen 1, you insist on bring in issues like when their church moved worship to Sunday to honor Messiah's resurrection. .

i don't believe it is possible to even discuss the issues under these circumstances. i am more than happy to try to, but i don't believe we share a fundamental set of principles that allows us to actually communicate.

please have the last word. i have more fruitful things to do then to repeat over and over the same simple idea and have this huge weight of theology cast at me as a result.

If you don't claim to know the mind of G-d, then try to refrain from the use of the phrase "G-d thought"
as a matter of fact, i have never typed the words "God thought" in this discussion, nor have i used the idea. i have simply tried to discuss the metaphor of the Sabbath in Gen 1 as an organizing structure for the entire chapter.
unsuccessfully.

The Creation of G-d is anything but a metaphor. It is a literal 7 day creation.
we can not even agree on the idea of a metaphor. rats. i hoped for more.

 

[vossler]

The "lie" that evolution happened or the lie that origins has been proven godless by science? YECism seems to assume that disproving the one will disprove the other but that simply isn't true. The two lies are completely independent. Any scientific interpretation of origins is potentially godless and by playing so much with science, scientific creationism is really fighting the battle with weapons bought from the enemy.

Both lies, but primarily the first.

I agree with your assessment that scientific creationism is, at times, fighting the battle with weapons bought from the enemy.

But I digress. In any case, for YECism to be about "upholding the Bible" seems a bit disingenuous when YECism doesn't give serious thought to the implications of the biblical truth it's trying to "uphold". It seems to be far more a reaction to evolution than a response to the Bible's truth ... pretty words notwithstanding.

To a certain extent you have a point here. The reaction to evolution should be, first and foremost, biblical, yet many YECs give up the biblical argument to entertain the scientific one. This bugs me, it is a worldly approach that undermines our strength, God's Word. At times science can play a role in the arguments, just never a primary one.

Of course YECism is a reaction to evolution, but the response should always be anchored or founded clearly within the truths stated in the Bible, not science. So if this makes it a reaction to evolution, yes you're right, but the reaction is, first and foremost, due to truths of God's Word.

 

[Gwenyfur]

Just a question, were you born Jewish?

Yes, I was. I am biologically, genetically, blood birthed, conceived and born a Jew.
Yes, at any time I wish I can claim citizenship in Israel...(which I will do if Hillary is elected BTW) and Yes, I plan retire and to die in the land G-d gave to my forefathers.

 

[Gwenyfur]

that is one problem with this discussion.
it is apparent that some people wish to accelerate the process of understanding the text.

i am interesting in approaching the topic systematically, from first reading the text. what does it say? what are the important metaphors and structures?

everytime i try to address simply an idea in Gen 1, you insist on bring in issues like when their church moved worship to Sunday to honor Messiah's resurrection. .

i don't believe it is possible to even discuss the issues under these circumstances. i am more than happy to try to, but i don't believe we share a fundamental set of principles that allows us to actually communicate.

please have the last word. i have more fruitful things to do then to repeat over and over the same simple idea and have this huge weight of theology cast at me as a result.

If you don't claim to know the mind of G-d, then try to refrain from the use of the phrase "G-d thought"
as a matter of fact, i have never typed the words "God thought" in this discussion, nor have i used the idea. i have simply tried to discuss the metaphor of the Sabbath in Gen 1 as an organizing structure for the entire chapter.
unsuccessfully.

The Creation of G-d is anything but a metaphor. It is a literal 7 day creation.
we can not even agree on the idea of a metaphor. rats. i hoped for more.

Sorry you feel that way...but to take a literal G-d and a literal creation and make them metaphors for the sake of discussion is pretty much an excersize in futility anyway. G-d is G-d, His word is simple and easy to understand for those who wish to gain the knowledge held in it. Why take something so simple and make it a complicated discussion?

 

[KerrMetric]

The only reason I asked was because my wife is Jewish (and Judaic) and her opinion of Messianic Jews is shall we say not very high. She considers them Christians and not Jews. I think what really bugs her is that many of them were not born Jewish and so how can they be Jews.

 

[Gwenyfur]

Most jews who practise judaeism don't think highly of their fellow jews who do believe Y'shua is Messiah. Unfortunate, but true. The fact that I believe He is Messiah, doesn't negate my blood lines however...

Shalom

 

[KerrMetric]

Most jews who practise judaeism don't think highly of their fellow jews who do believe Y'shua is Messiah. Unfortunate, but true. The fact that I believe He is Messiah, doesn't negate my blood lines however...

Shalom

I think the issue is that most Jews view the bloodlines as not as important as the faith. Since I know many Jews through my wifes family almost all of them consider Messianics as true heretics. I really don't care but I am puzzled by Messianics who call themselves Jews who are as Jewish as I am (i.e. not at all.)

Do you consider nonborn-Jew Messianics as actually Jews?