YEC vs OEC

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applehead

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Hi everyone,

Being a newbie i am still getting used to the board so if I am duplicating a thread please feel free to move it and please accept my apologies.

Personally I am still to make my mind up about young earth vs old earth. While contemplating this a thought came to mind that does anyone have any idea how long Adam was in the garden before God created Eve and then also how long were they in the garden together?

My direction is this. I believe that young earth creationists date the earth back to the fall and possibly not before this. If Eden was on earth why is it not taken into account, Adam could have been around for a very long time before Eve etc.

Thanks for your input in advance
 

Van

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Genesis 5:3 indicates Adam had lived 130 years when Seth was born. This is consistent with the apparent ages of the rest of the men given in Genesis 5, so apparently Adam was in the Garden before and after Eve for less than 130 years.

There are lots of efforts to push the date of Adam back, such as "missing" generations in the list of generations, and so forth, but all seem lame to me. Another approach is to say God created other humans before Adam, which also does not fit very well with the Bible saying Adam is the first man.
 
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Terral

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Hi Applehead:

Personally I am still to make my mind up about young earth vs old earth. While contemplating this a thought came to mind that does anyone have any idea how long Adam was in the garden before God created Eve and then also how long were they in the garden together?

I am answering these kinds of Genesis 1 + 2 questions on another thread starting in Post #2 here:

Genesis 1+2 <---- Read this post, then start your journey for 'the truth' here.

Go through and read from my work and &#8216;quote >>&#8217; anything to give context for your next line of questioning. That way everything is not duplicated on this thread that can evolve in a different direction and help others seeking answers to your very good questions. The short of a very long story is that we have many &#8216;gaps&#8217; from Genesis 1:1 to Genesis 3:21 where Adam and Eve finally put on human skins to begin actually toiling on this earth for bread. This universe has been around for billions of years, which includes the six reconstitution days of Genesis 1:3-31. The Lord God (Christ) formed Adam a heavenly being in Genesis 2:7 on this &#8216;seventh day&#8217; that began in Genesis 2:1-3, when God (His God and Father) rested. Adam then lived for thousands and thousands of years with Eve and her seed still IN him, until they were taken out in Genesis 2:20-22. Then Adam and Eve existed as heavenly beings from that time to Genesis 3:21-24 (the fall) where the Lord God puts them in human skins to mirror the sixth day people of Genesis 1:26-28 that have been around for millions of years. The 930 years of Adam&#8217;s human life (Gen. 5:5) began in Genesis 3:21-24 with the fall only after thousands and thousands of years of existence as a heavenly &#8216;son of God&#8217; (Luke 3:38).

My direction is this. I believe that young earth creationists date the earth back to the fall and possibly not before this. If Eden was on earth why is it not taken into account, Adam could have been around for a very long time before Eve etc.

Thanks for your input in advance

Your observations are 100 percent correct. While I respect the right of everyone here to believe anything they wish, the young earth theory of creation is among the most ridiculous explanations that these eyes have ever seen (Preterism takes the cake). Creation (Rom. 1:20) says exactly what God says in Scripture &#8216;and&#8217; Science says the universe has been around for billions of years (Nasa link). When you realize that God created the perfect/mature &#8216;Eth Erets in Genesis 1:1 &#8216;and&#8217; realize that original Creation was destroyed in Genesis 1:2 (Big Bang) &#8216;and&#8217; realize the reconstitution days of Genesis 1 are &#8216;days TO GOD&#8217; (billions of years), then perhaps you will realize the Science and Genesis are saying the exact same things, as it is written:

&#8220;For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse.&#8221; Romans 1:20.
Take one look through the Hubble telescope (link) and you can see distant galaxies 13 to 14 billion light years away and &#8216;that&#8217; is part of &#8220;the creation of the world&#8221; and &#8220;His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature&#8221; that &#8220;have been clearly seen.&#8221; Do the math! :0) The light from those distant galaxies took 13 to 14 billion years to reach our earth, which tells you the position of those heavenly bodies some 13 to 14 billion years ago. Try to imagine how far those galaxies are from our earth right this moment today. :0) The idea that the light traveling from those distant galaxies reached our earth in a mere 6000 years (heh) is nothing more than ridiculous. If God is going to play tricks with the elemental essence and nature of the universe, then His Word could NOT contain testimony about what is &#8220;clearly seen&#8221; by mere men walking around on this earth.

In Christ Jesus,

Terral
 
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Terral

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Hi Van:

Genesis 5:3 indicates Adam had lived 130 years when Seth was born. This is consistent with the apparent ages of the rest of the men given in Genesis 5, so apparently Adam was in the Garden before and after Eve for less than 130 years.

No sir. The Lord God fashioned coats of skins for Adam and Eve to live in &#8216;human&#8217; form in Genesis 3:21 where their earthly existence began with being driven out of the Garden. Seth was born 130 years after Adam and Eve were driven from the Garden to end Genesis 3. To know exactly how long Adam lived in his &#8216;heavenly&#8217; state (Gen. 2:7+) before Eve was taken from his side (Gen. 2:20-22) and before both were placed in human skins (Gen. 3:21), then you would have to ask your father Adam. :0)

There are lots of efforts to push the date of Adam back, such as "missing" generations in the list of generations, and so forth, but all seem lame to me.

Simply start Adam&#8217;s &#8216;earthly&#8217; incarnation at &#8216;the fall&#8217; and his expulsion from the Garden (Gen. 3:21-24 = diagram = far left) and the genealogical record of a mere 6000 years falls right into place.

Another approach is to say God created other humans before Adam, which also does not fit very well with the Bible saying Adam is the first man.

God did create the prehistoric people (link) on the sixth day in Genesis 1:26-28, while the Lord God (Christ) formed Adam on this still ongoing &#8216;seventh day&#8217; (Gen. 2:7). Since the Lord God formed Adam on this &#8216;seventh day,&#8217; then obviously the people God created on the sixth day came &#8216;before Adam&#8217; for those willing to do the math correctly. Adam is the first &#8216;man&#8217; of the righteous branch from Seth through Noah and Abraham through the Patriarchs and David down to Joseph the supposed father of Jesus . . . .

In Christ Jesus,

Terral
 
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busterdog

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Hi everyone,

Being a newbie i am still getting used to the board so if I am duplicating a thread please feel free to move it and please accept my apologies.

Personally I am still to make my mind up about young earth vs old earth. While contemplating this a thought came to mind that does anyone have any idea how long Adam was in the garden before God created Eve and then also how long were they in the garden together?

My direction is this. I believe that young earth creationists date the earth back to the fall and possibly not before this. If Eden was on earth why is it not taken into account, Adam could have been around for a very long time before Eve etc.

Thanks for your input in advance

I am not sure I have dog in the fight regarding how old the earth was when Adam and Eve met. I appreciate Van's observation, and I would point to: 1. the chaos that is modern cosmology and evolutionary science, neither of which are clear about anything, much less the age of the earth; 2. the common sense use of the geneologies as he has noted.

I have a very impassioned dog in the fight about the history of salvation in Biblical history as follows: 1. Why did all the pre-Adamic ancestors have to die of disease in paradise? THis is just not consistent with the Bible as history or as prophecy of the redemption of the world. 2. The Word just seems to say Adam was the first man and that the fall had a very definite beginning, not an evolution. I would not be looking forward to evolving back into being a son of God.
 
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hiscosmicgoldfish2

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If Eden was on earth why is it not taken into account, Adam could have been around for a very long time before Eve etc.

I don't know what you mean here, but.. Eden is a real place on earth and it still exists today, but is now an industrial town, in .. Iran.

The garden of Eden rather, as Eden is the general land area.. it's east of a lake in northern Iran called Daryacheh'ye' Orumiyeh, a bit south of Armenia, the 4 rivers mentioned in genesis are sourced from up there in the highlands..
I dont know about the other questions about Adam and Eve..
it's interesting that Kent Hovind presented the finding of the Ark in one of his videos that i saw recently.. I have a book by David Fasold, who more or less discovered the Ark up a hill in Turkey.. I've known about it for a long time, and the book is old now also, although I got a copy recently.. but people don't seem to bother with it.. I wonder why?
One other thing.. the Tigris and Euphrates are the same rivers as exist today, you can work that out by studying the way it's recorded in genesis..
and just one more thing.. civilisation started.. guess where? .. Iraq.. / Iran.. which just happens to be where people went to first, when they moved out of Eden.. east into Iran and south to Iraq.. and it's recorded who those people were.. I have a strange sort of interest in trying to find out more about those people.. is anyone else interested in pre-flood kings? if so let me know if you know anything..
 
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Assyrian

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I have a very impassioned dog in the fight about the history of salvation in Biblical history as follows: 1. Why did all the pre-Adamic ancestors have to die of disease in paradise?
To be pedantic here, the word paradise means a garden and is the word the LXX used for garden of Eden. Clearly if God planted the garden of paradise after he formed Adam, then any pre-Adam ancestors did not die in paradise. But you could ask similar questions of Abraham Moses David and all the OT saints dying before God sent the Messiah, dying without ever knowing Jesus Christ. Or why do we have to die of disease even though we have been redeemed from death.
 
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Assyrian

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There are lots of efforts to push the date of Adam back, such as "missing" generations in the list of generations, and so forth, but all seem lame to me. Another approach is to say God created other humans before Adam, which also does not fit very well with the Bible saying Adam is the first man.
You do have to look at the context in which Adam is called the first man, after all people call Laura Bush the First Lady. It says, 1Cor 15:47 The first man was from the earth, a man of dust; the second man is from heaven. Paul is referring to Christ as the second man, shouldn't that be Cain, with Able next as the third man ...or is that Harry Lime? Anyway I don't think you can assume Paul is talking quite literally here.
 
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Van

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Genesis 5:3 says Adam had lived 130 years when Seth was born. It does not say 130 years "since the fall." So the natural unforced reading of the text would be Adam had been a living breathing entity for a total of 130 years. This is consistent with the view that the other "so and so had lived xxx years when ?? was born." These all seem to relate the period from the person's birth, when they started breathing, to the birth of the child listed. To create a special circumstance for Adam and not interpret the text in a consistent manner appears to be an "ends driven" decision, rather than sound exegesis.

And just to state the obvious, the idea that Adam and Eve did not have human skin before Genesis 3:21 is ludicrous, Adam was made at least in part of flesh, Genesis 2:21
 
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busterdog

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To be pedantic here, the word paradise means a garden and is the word the LXX used for garden of Eden. Clearly if God planted the garden of paradise after he formed Adam, then any pre-Adam ancestors did not die in paradise.

Not a bad argument. But,

Rom 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

But you could ask similar questions of Abraham Moses David and all the OT saints dying before God sent the Messiah, dying without ever knowing Jesus Christ.

Moses knew Jesus. So did Abraham. Even Job called upon his redeemer before there was Moses. Which brings us to the whole Sheol/Abrahams bosom/Gehenna thing.

Or why do we have to die of disease even though we have been redeemed from death.

Good question.

Col 2:15 Having disarmed principalities and powers, He made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them in it.

But, we dont all have to die.

1Th 4:15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep.
1Th 4:16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.
1Th 4:17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.
 
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Assyrian

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Not a bad argument. But,

Rom 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
It is not how I read the passage, but if I were approaching it as an OEC, it seems to describe death spreading through the whole human population, and so death passed upon all men, the word used actually suggests travelling or spreading through a region, (though would I think Paul is using it metaphorically). Then we would have to look at the whole question of what kind of death Adam died the day he ate the fruit, but that is probably a discussion for the main forum :sorry:
 
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Assyrian

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Out of curiosity, why do you suppose the cherubim and flaming sword aren't still there, guarding the entrance to the Garden of Eden?
because nobody over there has reported seeing them.. :liturgy:

not that it matters, as nobody is interested in anything i say on these forums, i dont know why i bother...
Has anyone checked the entrance to the Garden of Eden :scratch:
 
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busterdog

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Has anyone checked the entrance to the Garden of Eden :scratch:

Gen 3:24
So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.
Who is checking the way to the tree of life?

The word translated as "east" has a conceptual meaning, not just a geographic one:

http://cf.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=H06924&t=kjv

The sword is always associated with the Word as idiom. Paul asserts that it literally does have the power of death:

2Th 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

Tradition teaches that one could die from being present in the Holy of Holies inappropriately. Uzza died when he touched the ark. Paul was knocked off his horse and blinded.

Exd 19:18 And mount Sinai was altogether on a smoke, because the LORD descended upon it in fire: and the smoke thereof ascended as the smoke of a furnace, and the whole mount quaked greatly.

It would appear the tree of life is in heaven:

Hbr 9:23 Therefore it was necessary that the copies of the things in the heavens should be purified with these, but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.
Hbr 9:24 For Christ has not entered the holy places made with hands, which are copies of the true, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us;
Hbr 9:25 not that He should offer Himself often, as the high priest enters the Most Holy Place every year with blood of another--
Hbr 9:26 He then would have had to suffer often since the foundation of the world; but now, once at the end of the ages, He has appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself.
Hbr 9:27 And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment,
Hbr 9:28 so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation.
 
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busterdog

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Don't think I can really comment here in the subforum, except to say I like your interpretation.

That's just because you didn't hear the conclusion: the "brightness" or cloud is plasma.

[Just kidding. Well, rather, what do I know?]
 
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