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Ye olde anti-vaxxers ...

Discussion in 'Physical & Life Sciences' started by A_Thinker, Sep 13, 2021.

  1. RestoreTheJoy

    RestoreTheJoy Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Ok, so people take their own risks. IF they are actually protected from severe disease, good for them. But then WHY are they being hospitalized? They were supposed to be protected. If you are hospitalized, it's pretty severe.

    Take 10 boosters if it seems wise to you. Just don't pretend your booster doesn't work if someone else doesn't take one too. It either works or not.
     
  2. sfs

    sfs Senior Member

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  3. sfs

    sfs Senior Member

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    You still didn't answer the question. Do you understand that the vaccines protect against most severe disease and death? 'That doesn't seem to align with what we are seeing, certainly not on a large scale,' suggests that the answer is 'no', but it would be helpful if you could just say so.
     
  4. partinobodycular

    partinobodycular Well-Known Member

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    I'm just a lurker here, but you didn't answer the question.
     
  5. RestoreTheJoy

    RestoreTheJoy Well-Known Member Supporter

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    The boosters aren't waning, but they don't work unless all your neighbors get them too? What kind of nonsense is that?
     
  6. RestoreTheJoy

    RestoreTheJoy Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Do they work or do they not? The narrative is that they work. But if true, then WHY is the rate of those who took them rising and rising. It was 10% hospitalized a few weeks ago....now 30% fully vaccinated still hospitalized.

    I said exactly the truth. If it is working, they shouldn't be entering hospitals in larger and larger numbers because they should be "protected from severe disease" as the claim now goes (before it was immunity, then they changed the definition to protection). Explain the discrepancy.
     
  7. partinobodycular

    partinobodycular Well-Known Member

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    So I'm gonna take that as a no...you don't think that they work.
     
  8. sfs

    sfs Senior Member

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    Right
    They don't work on your neighbors if they haven't gotten them, too, no. And if lots and lots of unboosted neighbors are being infected, some of the boosted will as well since the virus is everywhere. Even very good protection is not perfect.
    It's a basic understanding of infectious disease. Do you know anything at all about epidemiology?
     
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  9. sfs

    sfs Senior Member

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    What discrepancy? 'Protected' means that you're much less likely to become severely ill or die if you're vaccinated than you would be if you weren't vaccinated. Some vaccinated people will still get severely ill and some will die. If the total number of cases increases, the number of vaccinated people being hospitalized will also increase. If the fraction of the population that's vaccinated increases (which it is), then the vaccinated fraction of those being hospitalized will also increase. The same thing happens as more and more of the unvaccinated get sick and recover, and are thereafter also protected.

    All of this is expected and well understood by epidemiologists and public health officials. An increasing fraction of the vaccinated among the hospitalized simply cannot tell you by itself whether vaccination provides protection or not. If 30% of the hospitalized are fully vaccinated but more than 30% of the adult population is vaccinated, then your own numbers show that vaccination provides protection against severe disease. (In reality, that greatly understates the degree of protection, since the unvaccinated are heavily skewed toward younger people who aren't likely to get severely ill at all.)
     
  10. Strathos

    Strathos No one important

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    I bet he thinks that since people wearing seat belts can still die in car crashes, that means seat belts are useless.
     
  11. sfs

    sfs Senior Member

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    And the fraction of seat-belted people among traffic fatalities is much higher than it was when I was a kid in the 1960s, so clearly seatbelts don't work.
     
  12. RestoreTheJoy

    RestoreTheJoy Well-Known Member Supporter

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    The vaccinated are "protected" and encouraged to get boosters, yet they are entering the hospital in higher and higher numbers and percentages. I know the party line. But it doesn't look like "protection". The recovered are not filling the hospitals at all.

    Why isn't everyone in Florida dead yet? They stayed open and went about their lives the entire time, except for a few weeks at the beginning.

    And yes, the younger and those without co-morbidities were never at great risk statistically, so they should not be hassled and lose their jobs over declining a vaccine they don't need - especially if they recovered. That's just complete draconian nonsense.
     
  13. RestoreTheJoy

    RestoreTheJoy Well-Known Member Supporter

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    No, no...don't cut a sentence in half and out of context.

    This is what I said:
    The boosters aren't waning, but they don't work unless all your neighbors get them too? What kind of nonsense is that?

    Just like the vaccines didn't work unless everyone got them....but wait - they still aren't working and need booster(s)? Now everyone needs boosters.

    Obviously, that makes zero sense.

    At least I know how to research and have abundant common sense as well.
     
  14. Subduction Zone

    Subduction Zone Regular Member

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    You are likely following dishonest sites that only give you part of the story. Yes, vaccines fade in effectiveness over time. The length of time varies depending upon several factors. Older people have weaker immune systems and they will see the effectiveness go down first. They were also the first to be vaccinated so they have had more time for the vaccine to fade. That is why there numbers have gone up. But with a booster this does not happen. You can read more here:

    Hospitalizations rising among fully vaccinated in U.S., Fauci says
     
  15. FrumiousBandersnatch

    FrumiousBandersnatch Well-Known Member

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    It's the kind of nonsense that suggests that if being booster-vaccinated reduces the likelihood of your becoming infected and/or reduces the amount of virus you shed if you do become infected, and reduces the likelihood of serious illness, hospitalization, and death, then if everyone gets booster-vaccinated, viral spread through the population will be slower and fewer people are likely to become infected and suffer serious illness, hospitalization, and death.

    The vaccine stimulates two main lines of immune defence, the antibodies and the T-cells. The antibodies are a relatively short-term and very specific defence against the virus, and the T-cells are a more long-term generic defence (very roughly). The antibodies produced as a result of the current vaccines tend to wane significantly over six months or so, and a booster shot brings them back to full strength. IOW booster shots maintain the high-level protection of the vaccine during a pandemic that extends beyond the period of high-level antibody protection.
     
  16. RestoreTheJoy

    RestoreTheJoy Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Except vaccinated people are getting this thing more and more, even with boosters. It's reported every day when athletes and Hollywood types are involved (and not so, but happening with non-famous people around us). So that clearly isn't the answer.
    The memory cells are what are important.
     
  17. FrumiousBandersnatch

    FrumiousBandersnatch Well-Known Member

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    More and more vaccinated people are getting it because there are more and more vaccinated people. Of course it will be reported when celebrities get it - celebrity problems generate media views and clicks.

    All the relevant parts of the immune system are important.
     
  18. RestoreTheJoy

    RestoreTheJoy Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Actually, I am following all the main sites, just as you apparently are, and some lesser known sites. That's the only way you get the full story. We know the mainstream media lies all the time to push an agenda.

    Rittenhouse comes to mind as the most recent one.

    Yes, all those general statements you made are well known. But there is no evidence that a booster will do any more than the others have done, except artificially prop up antibodies for a short time.

    People ARE getting sick with both vaccines and boosters.

    "But boosters themselves will hopefully blunt this issue of having breakthrough cases" COVID-19 booster shots and breakthrough infections: Your questions answered

    In other words, do more of what is not working. We are SURE that it will work this time.

    And expect this (same article), which sounds an awful lot... like most cases of the virus, from all accounts:

    "In terms of systemic reactions, those in the younger age group appeared to experience these side effects more frequently than people 65 and older. But for both age groups, fatigue was the most commonly reported systemic reaction, at 62 percent for those 18 to 65 and 47.4 percent for those 65 and older.

    In the younger group, other systemic reactions included headache for 58.9 percent, muscle pain for 49.6 percent, joint pain for 41.9 percent, chills for 40.3 percent, nausea or vomiting for 12.4 percent, fever for 7 percent, and rash for 2.3 percent."
     
  19. RestoreTheJoy

    RestoreTheJoy Well-Known Member Supporter

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    But wait...the vaccine was supposed to "give us immunity" which was later changed to "protect" us!! So now you are arguing that it is not doing so.

    Agreed.

    The immune system is important and it works a certain way/
     
  20. FrumiousBandersnatch

    FrumiousBandersnatch Well-Known Member

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    No, the vaccines give protection by strengthening your immune response. For some, this will mean full immunity, for others partial immunity.

    Everyone is different and so are their immune systems. Some have deficient immune systems and some have other health issues that mean they can't raise or maintain as strong a response as a healthy individual with a healthy immune system. But all except very tiny number get some level of additional immune protection from a vaccine, i.e. a significant reduction in their risk of serious illness, hospitalization, and death from the virus.

    Yes. Unfortunately for health communicators, it is extremely complex, so descriptions and explanations for the general public are necessarily very simplified.
     
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