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Ye olde anti-vaxxers ...

Discussion in 'Physical & Life Sciences' started by A_Thinker, Sep 13, 2021.

  1. Mayflower1

    Mayflower1 Hello my Name is "Child of the One True King" Angels Team Supporter

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    It definitely wasn't easy. But I have been met with acceptance taking it despite so many being against it. That was comforting to me, because I was afraid of how people would take it. I am still fairly new at this church. Definitely on fire group of believers.
     
  2. partinobodycular

    partinobodycular Active Member

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    Well fortunately for you, I do know the right answer... you should tell them, in no uncertain terms, that what they're doing is wrong. If they're members of your church, then you should walk away from that church, because what the pastor is teaching is wrong. You're not supposed to be a member of a club, or a social group, first and foremost, you're supposed to be a Christian... even when it's hard. In fact, especially when it's hard. Show me that you can do that, that you can be a Christian, even when it's hard to be a Christian. Then perhaps, I'll actually believe that you are one.
     
  3. Mayflower1

    Mayflower1 Hello my Name is "Child of the One True King" Angels Team Supporter

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    You said you were agnostic right? You have to be a Christian first to understand what that really means. I pray for you that you will have a personal encounter with Jesus Christ.

    I stand with my church family. And they must be doing something right, because relatively few have gotten covid or any other sickness. Jehovah Rapha does heal. He is a God of science, but He also is a God of healing and miracles. My church speaks truth.

    But I have said my peace. We have been off topic here for awhile, but thankful I got to share my thoughts with y'all. I pray for wisdom and discernment for everyone during this time and no hard feelings. I believe words and ideas are misplaced on where they really should be focused on. It is why I do not get into these discussions often. Y'all have a good night.
     
  4. partinobodycular

    partinobodycular Active Member

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    I've been a Christian longer than you've been alive. Any fool can call themselves a Christian, and a great many do. But a name means nothing. Because it's not what one calls oneself that matters, it's how one lives that matters, and that's a lesson that I'm afraid you'll never learn.

    So go ahead, go to your church, and willfully kill your fellow man. Forget all that nonsense about loving them, who could possibly believe in doing that. Apparently...not your church.
     
  5. A_Thinker

    A_Thinker Well-Known Member Supporter

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    I agree. Though I have been arguing for vaccination in these threads, ... I think that, at the end of the day, we ... as a society ... must listen to each other to solve our differences.

    It is clear that, in the West, we regard one's body as one's temple ... and believe, ultimately, that noone can take away our freedom to use our bodies as we will, so long as we do not impede or trample the rights and freedoms of others.

    What is ultimately occurring now ... is a conflict between personal freedom ... and the safety of the society. It can become hard to judge, particularly in times of crises, where personal rights and freedoms end ... and where societal responsibility begins.

    It is clear that there is a cadre of Americans (our neighbors) who are actively resisting getting the COVID vaccines. They obviously have personal reasons for doing so, right or wrong. And, on the other hand, I think that our societal governing officials, placed in positions of power either by those that they represent ... or by God, as may be believed, ... feel that they have a responsibility to do as much as possible to safeguard their constituency (in the main).

    So, even though we haven't reached a point where persons are being forcibly vaccinated against their will, ... western societies have advanced toward that line in the sand ... by imposing potential sanctions upon those who don't act as has been recommended to help safeguard society. And so it shall be ... the confrontation of two opposing viewpoints ... until its final resolution.

    As a christian, it is obvious to me that God values the individual ... and the community, ... and has left it up to us ... to figure out how to negotiate our commitment to either of the two. God does command that we love one another ... as we love our own selves, ... the two accomplished together.

    As I look over the situation we have facing us today regarding the question of vaccination against the pandemic, ... I think that we (as a society) are left with the question ... of how we might prepare for a better outcome ... the next time.

    I believe that we will ultimately convince and/or coerce enough persons to be vaccinated ... so that we might reduce COVID to a minimal threat. Hopefully, that will happen before COVID mutates into an unstoppable variant.

    We have a lot to consider. Obviously, individuals have personal rights. But, if they CHOOSE to live within a particular society, ... they also have responsibilities to that society. And, of course, ... some of the dilemma of COVID is circumstantial. It's become my firm belief that if COVID presented in a way more like smallpox, ... there wouldn't be nearly the vaccine hesitancy that we see now.

    In the past, even without vaccines, mankind has survived ... albeit with a lot of death and suffering. I'm sure that we will survive this crisis as well.
     
    Last edited: Sep 19, 2021
  6. A_Thinker

    A_Thinker Well-Known Member Supporter

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    I believe that it should be recognized that many (likely a majority) of christians ... have gotten the vaccination. It just happens to be the case that a minority of American christians (plus others) ... are currently resisting receiving the vaccine.

    It should also be recognized that they are doing so, ... in some level of opposition to the teachings of christianity. They are acting more as Americans (where freedom is the guiding principle) ... than as christians (where love is the guiding principle).

    It is a bit of a dilemma ...
     
  7. RestoreTheJoy

    RestoreTheJoy Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Outbreaks also happen among the fully vaccinated as well, to be fair:

    Measles Outbreak among Vaccinated High School Students -- Illinois

    Measles outbreak in a fully immunized secondary-school population - PubMed

    Fourteen of 74 seronegative students, all of whom had been vaccinated, contracted measles. In addition, three seronegative students seroconverted without experiencing any symptoms. We conclude that outbreaks of measles can occur in secondary schools, even when more than 99 percent of the students have been vaccinated and more than 95 percent are immune.

    Seattle Nurse Contracts Measles from Patient — Despite Being Fully Vaccinated

    "A Seattle nurse contracted the measles after caring for a patient with the highly contagious virus, despite being fully vaccinated and wearing protective equipment, health officials confirmed on Monday.

    The nurse, who is in her 20s, was working at Seattle Children’s Hospital and tending to a young patient with measles when she developed the infection. The hospital says that she was potentially contagious while working from July 8 through 11."

    Harvard-Westlake students were vaccinated. Dozens caught whooping cough anyway

    Nearly 50 students at Harvard-Westlake School have been recently diagnosed with whooping cough, in an outbreak that has forced school officials to send students home at the first sign of illness.

    But all of the sick students had been vaccinated against the disease.
     
  8. partinobodycular

    partinobodycular Active Member

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    Unfortunately, some would use this fact as an argument against vaccinations, when it's anything but. It's an argument for diligence and vigilance and persistence. We fight today, even when the foe seems insignificant, because what we're protecting isn't today, we're protecting tomorrow.
     
  9. partinobodycular

    partinobodycular Active Member

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    The problem is...we never know when the next time is going to be. And we never know if what we're failing to do today is going to allow it to happen. So there are times when you can't simply remain silent. It may seem like the kindest thing to do, but you may someday find that it wasn't the right thing to do.

    Americans are proud of their freedoms, but in some sense their love of freedom is getting them killed. It's important that people understand that. We can argue that "these things too shall pass", but the question is, how many must die while they do.

    Our hope is to build a future where things such as smallpox don't happen. But that hope is diminished if we're constantly fighting the very people that we're trying to save. So I wonder, what are we truly fighting here, a disease or an attitude? In the end we may find that when it comes to our hopes for the future, it's the latter that's the greater threat.
     
  10. partinobodycular

    partinobodycular Active Member

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    Amen
     
  11. A_Thinker

    A_Thinker Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Measles is highly contagious, with an R value approaching 10.

    Vaccination is what keeps these small outbreaks ... from becoming pandemics ...
     
  12. RestoreTheJoy

    RestoreTheJoy Well-Known Member Supporter

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    No, immunity is what keeps small outbreaks small. Regardless of source.

    Mom and Dad can take care of a kid who gets it precisely because 30 or 40 years ago, they had measles and are immune for life.
     
  13. partinobodycular

    partinobodycular Active Member

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    Or much, much more likely, 30 or 40 years ago they got vaccinated.
     
  14. RestoreTheJoy

    RestoreTheJoy Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Well, depends on how far you go back, how old the parent is, etc. You do realize that pretty much everyone born before the seventies got all the normal childhood diseases, right?
     
  15. partinobodycular

    partinobodycular Active Member

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    Yes, but you specifically said 30 to 40 years, in which case one's parents are far, far more likely to have gotten a measles vaccination, than to have actually gotten the measles.

    But I can't help but wonder, do you believe that actually getting the measles is preferable to getting vaccinated? If so, why?
     
  16. RestoreTheJoy

    RestoreTheJoy Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Lifelong natural immunity v. vaccine immunity that needs shots every few years? No contest. Of course the real immunity is better. We cannot do better than an effective immune system that God created.

    Now as always, some will have really terrible cases of measles (or whatever), as is always the case, including with this current injection.
     
  17. partinobodycular

    partinobodycular Active Member

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    Except that the measles vaccine is good for life, so that argument doesn't fly.

    Wanna try again?
     
  18. RestoreTheJoy

    RestoreTheJoy Well-Known Member Supporter

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    You are welcome to try again; review the many groups who are encouraged to get the vaccine again (after the now multiple childhood vaccines)

    Healthcare Professionals: Clinical Resources


    "So you can either go to your doctor and say, 'Draw a blood test and see if I have a high enough level,' or just get the shot," he said. "By the way, it's a lot cheaper to just get the shot. So people who were vaccinated from 1963 to 1968 -- that needs to happen."

    "And so the argument is: if you're going to a foreign country, if you're potentially going to college -- which obviously those people are probably not going to college now -- [or] if you live in one of the areas where we've seen measles go up dramatically, you probably should see your doctor about potentially a second shot," he said.

    Adults who were vaccinated in the 1960s may need a measles booster
     
  19. partinobodycular

    partinobodycular Active Member

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    You do realize that in 1968 a new vaccine was developed, so the above quote refers to an earlier version of the vaccine, not the one in use today, or the one in use during the 30-40 year time frame to which you originally referred.

    So, do you wanna try a third time?
     
  20. Hans Blaster

    Hans Blaster E pluribus unum

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    Care to provide evidence of that? (Vaccination rates and measles infection rates in the 70s, 80s, and 90s.)

    From my memories of that time, measles outbreaks were *not* common. Those of us who were kids back then were all (or nearly all) vaccinated. Chicken pox, sure, virtually everyone got chicken pox (once), but measles, no, that was pretty rare. It was *national* news that there were measles outbreaks (in the late 90s and 21st century) in communities where parents were refusing to get their kids vaccinated with MMR after the fearmongering of fools like Andrew Wakefield and Jenny McCarthy.
     
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