Yay! Our Church actually Changed!

[Nikanor]

grape juice is from the "fruit of vine" so you were following scripture all along. I wonder if your elders know that there are many greek terms for english word "wine", and that it depends on how long it's been fermenting, how it was grown, etc, that determines what kind of wine it is whether alcoholic, non-alcholic, really rich in flavor, bitter, (etc on that too!). The wine not told be drunk in the old testament was talking about alcoholic wine, but a different term for wine is used in the Greek language when Jesus made water into wine. Now, I don't rememeber what those terms are, but it shouldn't take away from any credibility of what I am saying for I was told this by my own teachers, and all the Baptist ministers I've encountered have told me the same thing. In fact, there's a book on the many different kinds of wines there are. So, yes, you can have wine, but someone might want to question of how much it's been sitting out in the sun?

Amen. It's kind of sad when churches get so bogges down in things like this.

Nikanor

 

[Koey]

That's all BS. Oinos is the Greek word. Go to a bottle shop and ask for some Greek wine - read the label. Ask any Greek what oinos is and he won't tell you it's grape juice. You guys are reading your modern legalistic bigotry backwards into history.

Simple fact is, Jesus introduced wine for communion - Tom Welch introduced grape juice. You can do what you want and I'll honor your faith. Heck, I'll even share communion with you - you with your kiddie juice and me with my wine.

But, I won't honor your perversion of history, and I choose to follow Christ not Tom Welch or the WCTU's legalistic perversion of theology either.

 

[Izdaari Eristikon]

My preference is for wine in communion rather than grape juice. I don't care whether the bread is leavened or not. Neither is a matter of great importance to me, as I don't believe there is any rule in the matter that must be followed one way or the other, but merely a preference.

I have no quarrel at all with those who have a different preference, but I certainly have a problem with those who insist on arguing over it and demanding that their way be everyone's way. I think that's a very bad witness, as it gives the mistaken impression that Christians are still bound up with the Law rather than under Grace, something that Paul preached against all through Galatians, even rebuking Peter over it face to face... and Peter accepted the correction.

 

[artogis]

How about we simplify our faith and recognize that it matters not one bit what we use to partake in communion as long as we are truly seeking Christ as we do so?

I once had a spontaneous communion at my house using potato chips and Coca Cola.

Just do it in remembrance of Him...and it doesn't particularly matter what the variables are. Ritual and faith are not the same thing.

 

[artogis]

That's all BS. Oinos is the Greek word. Go to a bottle shop and ask for some Greek wine - read the label. Ask any Greek what oinos is and he won't tell you it's grape juice. You guys are reading your modern legalistic bigotry backwards into history.

Simple fact is, Jesus introduced wine for communion - Tom Welch introduced grape juice. You can do what you want and I'll honor your faith. Heck, I'll even share communion with you - you with your kiddie juice and me with my wine.

But, I won't honor your perversion of history, and I choose to follow Christ not Tom Welch or the WCTU's legalistic perversion of theology either.

Wow...just wow.

So much argument and apparent frustration with the "wine/no-wine" argument. This kind of stuff is what keeps Christians from being a cohesive community.

Settle down - Christ doesn't care what you use as long as you are honoring Him in doing so.

 

[Nikanor]

That's all BS. Oinos is the Greek word. Go to a bottle shop and ask for some Greek wine - read the label. Ask any Greek what oinos is and he won't tell you it's grape juice. You guys are reading your modern legalistic bigotry backwards into history.

Simple fact is, Jesus introduced wine for communion - Tom Welch introduced grape juice. You can do what you want and I'll honor your faith. Heck, I'll even share communion with you - you with your kiddie juice and me with my wine.

But, I won't honor your perversion of history, and I choose to follow Christ not Tom Welch or the WCTU's legalistic perversion of theology either.

I smell the leaven of the Pharisees.

Listen, sir, you are getting bogged down in carnal things. It does not matter whether one uses grape juice or wine. What does matter is that you are taking communion with a heart of repentence and humility.

I have been to inner-city churches filled with former alcoholics. To partake of communion wine would not be beneficial for them.

If you are really so concerned with doing things "by the book," then shouldn't you be celebrating your communion over a Passover supper, as Jesus did?
Note that I said passover supper, and not easter supper.

Nikanor

 

[Nikanor]

How about we simplify our faith and recognize that it matters not one bit what we use to partake in communion as long as we are truly seeking Christ as we do so?

I once had a spontaneous communion at my house using potato chips and Coca Cola.

Just do it in remembrance of Him...and it doesn't particularly matter what the variables are. Ritual and faith are not the same thing.

Amen.

Nikanor

 

[Nikanor]

Why is it the leaven of Pharisees to correct the Pharisees?

By the way, recent studies actually show that alcoholics who limit their intake of alcohol to a small amount per day actually recover better than those who totally abstain. Perhaps Jesus was too ignorant a Creator to know that by instituting wine.

By the way again, communion was a separate ceremony to Passover. Theologically, though one is an antecedent to the other, they are actually different.

With your judgemental attitude to others, I don't think you can even truly partake of communion.

Would I be too far off in thinking you have some sort of physical disease, or are weak and sick? Stop judging, confess your sin to the Church and you will be healed.

Nikanor

 

[aggie03]

And I would pretty much suggest that we just go ahead and end this one...

 

[jmacvols]

For a very long time in our local church I and a few others have been quite uncomfortable. Thomas Welch's modern invention of grape juice was shoved down our throats each Sunday, and we wanted wine like Christ instituted.

The Churches of Christ have no creed but Christ theoretically, but in practice, they have no creed but Churches of Christ traditions, which include no tolerance for anything but immersion baptism and being a teetotaler.

So, about 6 months ago, some of us requested a choice for communion, wine for some and juice for others, so that everyone's faith could be accomodated. For a long time this decision was put off and in the end I just gave up and decided no longer to take part because of the mandatory grape juice. It just did not represent my faith.

Then, a miracle occurred. One elder who is a firm grape juicer, teetotaler and vehemently anti-alcohol, said we ought to consider the faith of others. It was put to a vote and we now accomodate the faith of others in this area.

Yahoooooo! I feel so much better now! About half of us take the wine and the other half take the grape juice. It's just so wonderful! Yay!

This is a bit off topic, but you say "it was put to a vote." Is everything "voted" on at the congregation you attend? If so, what is the role or need for elders?

 

[aggie03]

This is a bit off topic, but you say "it was put to a vote." Is everything "voted" on at the congregation you attend? If so, what is the role or need for elders?

It was the elders who asked the congregation to vote, if I remember the story correctly...

I still say it's time to end this one...we can start the conversation again about alcohol in a different thread. This was not the purpose of this one.

 

[Apollos1]

Hey aggie –

This thread was pretty much closed down for a week until you felt the need to mention we should close it down. Now look what you have caused !

I can’t comprehend elders – the shepherds over the flock – asking the sheep for a vote over what I see as an item of example and scripture, but then, they capitulated in favor or alcohol. Who can predict such?

I think I will close out with the following…

Koey vulgarly complained - That's all BS. Oinos is the Greek word. Go to a bottle shop and ask for some Greek wine - read the label. Ask any Greek what oinos is and he won't tell you it's grape juice. You guys are reading your modern legalistic bigotry backwards into history.

Oinos is the Greek word for wine – not “fruit of the vine”. Oinos is NEVER used in conjunction with the Lord’s Supper. I don’t go to Liquor stores and I don’t need them for my source of information in religion. I would not ask them to tell me what Christ used in the Lord’s Supper either!

I am familiar to the likes of you, Koey. People who know little about scripture and pay even less attention to how to apply it… coming along with a deep pocket of selfishness in a congregation wanting to know what they can do for YOU and how they can accommodate YOU – while calling those that want to follow the Bible “legalistic” and “bigots”. No thanks for the insults. You have already shown me that you want to have your way and if you do not get your way much whining, crying, and name calling will follow. We don’t allow tantrums at my congregation oh pedantic one.

Koey claimed without any prior support - Simple fact is, Jesus introduced wine for communion - Tom Welch introduced grape juice. You can do what you want and I'll honor your faith. Heck, I'll even share communion with you - you with your kiddie juice and me with my wine.

Fact is “fruit of the vine” is grape juice – this is what was used in the LS – Jesus introduced it - and I gave spectacular evidence in the thread above to PROVE it while you whined like a child about everyone and everything that you disagreed with.

You offered---- nothing. You presented --- NADA …except your selfish unsubstantiated opinions. There was NO semblance of any proof for “oinos” in the LS.

YOU will honor my faith? You said this and turned right around and belittled what I believe in – “fruit of the vine” in the Lord’s Supper. You are a hypocrite! Does your vino make you feel like a man?

My closing in a word… GROW UP !!!

 

[aggie03]

Well...I was really asking one of the mods to lock it...suppose I should have been more specific .

I agree that this is an important topic to talk about, but it seemed like tempers were flaring up - and I didn't notice that it had been a week. My mistake. Sorry.

 

[CounselorII]

I'm new to this forum and I am not impressed. The lack of self control as it pertains to inflammatory remarks is amazing. Advocating alcohol or non-alcohol is rooted in selfishness and it is of no consequence. Why is it that you have not moved on from milk to solid food by now.

 

[JDIBe]

I'm new to this forum and I am not impressed. The lack of self control as it pertains to inflammatory remarks is amazing. Advocating alcohol or non-alcohol is rooted in selfishness and it is of no consequence. Why is it that you have not moved on from milk to solid food by now.

Friend,

Inflamatory remarks by a poster who is not a member of the Restoration Movement does not help the situation either. We appreciate you being here and you are more than welcome to stay and participate, but please strive to be a peacemaker......

James 3:17
But the wisdom that comes from heaven is first of all pure; then peace-loving, considerate, submissive, full of mercy and good fruit, impartial and sincere.

 

[Koey]

I feel the need to correct the gross biblical ignorance over the term "fruit of the vine" here. We need to understand the historical context and not just retrofit our own understanding.

First of all the term was used by Jews 2,000 years ago to refer to the sacred wine used for Passover, not grape juice. Second, Passover is 6 months after the grape harvest in that part of the world. Third, preventing grape juice turning into wine is a modern invention only possible since Thomas Brampton Welch's invention in the 1800's. It was his son who sold the idea at the Chicago World's Fair to the churches, not Jesus Christ on that Passover evening 2,000 years ago.

Some people are so against alcohol that beyond all reason they try to turn wine into grape juice. They invent silly reverse engineered reasoning to support their bigotry, such as people keeping clusters of unpicked grapes for 6 months so that they could squeeze out fresh grape juice (unlikely fantasy), or preserving grape juice with chemicals (which were only used to prevent wine turning into vinegar), or that wine was watered down (actually a curse biblically). None of these fantasies holds water. The simple fact is that when Jesus instituted communion wine it was Passover wine, not Tom Welch's pasteurized grape juice.

When he returns, he says he will drink wine with us again. Will the legalists refuse the cup when Jesus himself hands it to them? I hope not.

You can disagree with the ancient history as long as you want. But, you cannot disagree that for most of 2,000 years (before Tom Welch) the Church used wine and not grape juice. It seems unlikely that they were sinning for 2,000 years, but really just following Jesus.

Those who are liberal mindedly turning wine into grape juice, can do what they want. I frankly don't mind if my brother next to me perfers grape juice at the Lord's Table. What I do not wish is that my brother judges me for MY FAITH which is to follow what I am convinced was Jesus' own example.

As such, I am glad that our small part of the Restoration Movment has restored the original wine to the table and left off where Tom Welch intervened.

 

[DerSchweik]

Gentlemen,
This thread seems to be generating some "heat" of late.
This is just a friendly reminder to everyone to keep tempers down and comments objective, to the point, and Christ-like.
If a new thread is appropriate to keep the OP intact, then I'd recommend someone start a new one to discuss this specific topic there - preferably in the new "Formal Discussion" sub-forum - for this thread certainly qualifies. If the OP prefers, we can move this thread there without issue.
If you have any questions or issues, please PM me or any of the other mods here.
Thanks for your cooperation and understanding. - God bless. - DerSchweik

 

[Koey]

I feel the need to provide a list of scriptures which show the good side of wine. The teetotalers only provide half of the biblical evidence to support their theory that alcohol is banned biblically. It is not. The only thing that is banned is drunkenness, excess. So, here we go with the other side of the story:

Genesis 14:18 And King Melchizedek of Salem brought out bread and wine; he was priest of God Most High.​

Genesis 27:28 May God give you of the dew of heaven, and of the fatness of the earth, and plenty of grain and wine.

Exodus 29:40 and with the first lamb one-tenth of a measure of choice flour mixed with one-fourth of a hin of beaten oil, and one-fourth of a hin of wine for a drink offering.​

Numbers 15:5 Moreover, you shall offer one-fourth of a hin of wine as a drink offering with the burnt offering or the sacrifice, for each lamb.

Numbers 15:7 and as a drink offering you shall offer one-third of a hin of wine, a pleasing odor to the LORD.

Numbers 18:12 All the best of the oil and all the best of the wine and of the grain, the choice produce that they give to the LORD, I have given to you.

Numbers 18:12 All the best of the oil and all the best of the wine and of the grain, the choice produce that they give to the LORD, I have given to you.

Deuteronomy 11:14 then he will give the rain for your land in its season, the early rain and the later rain, and you will gather in your grain, your wine, and your oil;

Deuteronomy 12:17 Nor may you eat within your towns the tithe of your grain, your wine, and your oil, the firstlings of your herds and your flocks, any of your votive gifts that you vow, your freewill offerings, or your donations;

Deuteronomy 14:23 In the presence of the LORD your God, in the place that he will choose as a dwelling for his name, you shall eat the tithe of your grain, your wine, and your oil, as well as the firstlings of your herd and flock, so that you may learn to fear the LORD your God always.

Deuteronomy 14:26 spend the money for whatever you wish-- oxen, sheep, wine, strong drink, or whatever you desire. And you shall eat there in the presence of the LORD your God, you and your household rejoicing together.

Deuteronomy 16:13 You shall keep the festival of booths for seven days, when you have gathered in the produce from your threshing floor and your wine press.

Deuteronomy 33:28 So Israel lives in safety, untroubled is Jacob's abode in a land of grain and wine, where the heavens drop down dew.

1 Samuel 1:24 When she had weaned him, she took him up with her, along with a three-year-old bull, an ephah of flour, and a skin of wine. She brought him to the house of the LORD at Shiloh; and the child was young.

Psalm 104:14-15 You cause the grass to grow for the cattle, and plants for people to use, to bring forth food from the earth, and wine to gladden the human heart, oil to make the face shine, and bread to strengthen the human heart.

Proverbs 3:10 then your barns will be filled with plenty, and your vats will be bursting with wine.

Proverbs 31:6 Give strong drink to one who is perishing, and wine to those in bitter distress;

Ecclesiastes 10:19 Feasts are made for laughter; wine gladdens life, and money meets every need.

Isaiah 1:22 Your silver has become dross, your wine is mixed with water.

Isaiah 36:17 until I come and take you away to a land like your own land, a land of grain and wine, a land of bread and vineyards.

Amos 9:13 The time is surely coming, says the LORD, when the one who plows shall overtake the one who reaps, and the treader of grapes the one who sows the seed; the mountains shall drip sweet wine, and all the hills shall flow with it.​

Matthew 9:17 Neither is new wine put into old wineskins; otherwise, the skins burst, and the wine is spilled, and the skins are destroyed; but new wine is put into fresh wineskins, and so both are preserved.

Luke 5:39 And no one after drinking old wine desires new wine, but says, 'The old is good.'

Luke 7:33-34 For John the Baptist has come eating no bread and drinking no wine, and you say, 'He has a demon'; the Son of Man has come eating and drinking, and you say, 'Look, a glutton and a drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and sinners!'

John 2:3-9 Jesus turns water to wine

I Timothy 5:23 No longer drink only water, but take a little wine for the sake of your stomach and your frequent ailments.​

 

[Loveaboveall]

For a very long time in our local church I and a few others have been quite uncomfortable. Thomas Welch's modern invention of grape juice was shoved down our throats each Sunday, and we wanted wine like Christ instituted.

The Churches of Christ have no creed but Christ theoretically, but in practice, they have no creed but Churches of Christ traditions, which include no tolerance for anything but immersion baptism and being a teetotaler.

So, about 6 months ago, some of us requested a choice for communion, wine for some and juice for others, so that everyone's faith could be accomodated. For a long time this decision was put off and in the end I just gave up and decided no longer to take part because of the mandatory grape juice. It just did not represent my faith.

Then, a miracle occurred. One elder who is a firm grape juicer, teetotaler and vehemently anti-alcohol, said we ought to consider the faith of others. It was put to a vote and we now accomodate the faith of others in this area.

Yahoooooo! I feel so much better now! About half of us take the wine and the other half take the grape juice. It's just so wonderful! Yay!

Sorry to burst your bubble, but unless you actually squeezed it from the fruit yourself and left it to "ferment" as you suggest it was, you are no closer to partaking of the "fruit of the vine" then by using Welch's grape juice. The modern fermenting processes were not in place then and create a much higher alcohol content. Why would you want to partake of a drug during your worship service to Jesus? Maybe you can explain this to me. IMO, you are much farther from partaking of what was drunk at the original LS by using modern wine(of course that is just my opinion, take it or leave it)

 

[Loveaboveall]

When he returns, he says he will drink wine with us again. Will the legalists refuse the cup when Jesus himself hands it to them? I hope not.

.

Could you please define the word "legalist" for me, I am not sure your definition?