Yay! Our Church actually Changed!

[ChurchofChrist]

heres the danger...where does the compromises stop. Do you add instrumental music because some want it? Do you have a service on Saturday night because some find it more convienent? Do you stop practicing immersion because sprinkling is easier? Do you allow a women to teach because she wants to? Do you omit a qualification for an Elder because it doesn't fit the person? This is how Satan creeps into the church.

 

[Koey]

heres the danger...where does the compromises stop. Do you add instrumental music because some want it? Do you have a service on Saturday night because some find it more convienent? Do you stop practicing immersion because sprinkling is easier? Do you allow a women to teach because she wants to? Do you omit a qualification for an Elder because it doesn't fit the person? This is how Satan creeps into the church.

I sincerely appreciate the opportunity to respond to these questions, because I believe it is the Churches of Christ who have already compromised on the above issues and need to get back to their original charter -- no creed but Christ.

• Jesus did not ban instrumental music. Therefore to ban it is to ban something that Jesus did not do.
• Nowhere did Jesus mandate a Sunday or Saturday Sabbath for the Church. Sure the church began observing Sunday, and you can even see a few verses in the Bible which hint at that, but none of them makes it a command. So, Saturday night services? Jesus was neither for nor against them. So, to say that is compromising is actually creating a rule that Jesus did not.
• Immersion is nowhere commanded by Jesus. That is a total misunderstanding of the Greek word "baptizo." It literally kills me to say that for sure it means literally to immerse, but it doesn't literally kill me because I am using the word kill which means one thing literally but not here, and baptizo can also be used in a non-literal sense, such as to wash, IN the Bible. Custom is custom, and not a command that either Jesus or the apostles made.
• Women? I tend to agree with you partially on that issue. I am not in favor of women preaching because "they" want to, but if God sends one, "because there was no man in Israel" then I do not want to judge God, and hence do not rule women out of preaching or prophesying, especially since there were women prophets in the Bible. A big topic of course, and I am somewhat ambivalent on it for these reasons.
• I do not omit any qualification for an elder, but I notice that Paul did. The two lists in 1 Timothy and Titus are not identical.
• As far as Satan having crept into the church, I think he has been there a long time, and one of his favorite tricks is to get people tied into rules like the ones above, that neither Jesus nor the apostles made.

Compromise? I think that we need to stop compromising with our man-made rules, by throwing them out and getting back to the idea of "no creed but Christ."

 

[Izdaari Eristikon]

I sincerely appreciate the opportunity to respond to these questions, because I believe it is the Churches of Christ who have already compromised on the above issues and need to get back to their original charter -- no creed but Christ.

• Jesus did not ban instrumental music. Therefore to ban it is to ban something that Jesus did not do.
• Nowhere did Jesus mandate a Sunday or Saturday Sabbath for the Church. Sure the church began observing Sunday, and you can even see a few verses in the Bible which hint at that, but none of them makes it a command. So, Saturday night services? Jesus was neither for nor against them. So, to say that is compromising is actually creating a rule that Jesus did not.
• Immersion is nowhere commanded by Jesus. That is a total misunderstanding of the Greek word "baptizo." It literally kills me to say that for sure it means literally to immerse, but it doesn't literally kill me because I am using the word kill which means one thing literally but not here, and baptizo can also be used in a non-literal sense, such as to wash, IN the Bible. Custom is custom, and not a command that either Jesus or the apostles made.
• Women? I tend to agree with you partially on that issue. I am not in favor of women preaching because "they" want to, but if God sends one, "because there was no man in Israel" then I do not want to judge God, and hence do not rule women out of preaching or prophesying, especially since there were women prophets in the Bible. A big topic of course, and I am somewhat ambivalent on it for these reasons.
• I do not omit any qualification for an elder, but I notice that Paul did. The two lists in 1 Timothy and Titus are not identical.
• As far as Satan having crept into the church, I think he has been there a long time, and one of his favorite tricks is to get people tied into rules like the ones above, that neither Jesus nor the apostles made.

Compromise? I think that we need to stop compromising with our man-made rules, by throwing them out and getting back to the idea of "no creed but Christ."

I agree with most of that, but with one difference: IMO man-made customs and traditions aren't necessarily a bad thing, so long as we don't fool ourselves into thinking that they're commanded by God, and so long as they're not inconsistent with what scripture really does require.

 

[ChurchofChrist]

I sincerely appreciate the opportunity to respond to these questions, because I believe it is the Churches of Christ who have already compromised on the above issues and need to get back to their original charter -- no creed but Christ.

• Jesus did not ban instrumental music. Therefore to ban it is to ban something that Jesus did not do.
• Nowhere did Jesus mandate a Sunday or Saturday Sabbath for the Church. Sure the church began observing Sunday, and you can even see a few verses in the Bible which hint at that, but none of them makes it a command. So, Saturday night services? Jesus was neither for nor against them. So, to say that is compromising is actually creating a rule that Jesus did not.
• Immersion is nowhere commanded by Jesus. That is a total misunderstanding of the Greek word "baptizo." It literally kills me to say that for sure it means literally to immerse, but it doesn't literally kill me because I am using the word kill which means one thing literally but not here, and baptizo can also be used in a non-literal sense, such as to wash, IN the Bible. Custom is custom, and not a command that either Jesus or the apostles made.
• Women? I tend to agree with you partially on that issue. I am not in favor of women preaching because "they" want to, but if God sends one, "because there was no man in Israel" then I do not want to judge God, and hence do not rule women out of preaching or prophesying, especially since there were women prophets in the Bible. A big topic of course, and I am somewhat ambivalent on it for these reasons.
• I do not omit any qualification for an elder, but I notice that Paul did. The two lists in 1 Timothy and Titus are not identical.
• As far as Satan having crept into the church, I think he has been there a long time, and one of his favorite tricks is to get people tied into rules like the ones above, that neither Jesus nor the apostles made.

Compromise? I think that we need to stop compromising with our man-made rules, by throwing them out and getting back to the idea of "no creed but Christ."

There are verses backing up all of the things i said. It's insanse to think baptism is not immersion. Why then did the Ethiopian stop the chariot and GO DOWN INTO the water. If you are going to represent the death, BURIAL, and ressurection of Christ you need to be submerged. And just because Jesus didn't say it himself doesn't mean it is not the word of God. Look at 2 Timothy 3:16

 

[crawfish]

heres the danger...where does the compromises stop. Do you add instrumental music because some want it? Do you have a service on Saturday night because some find it more convienent? Do you stop practicing immersion because sprinkling is easier? Do you allow a women to teach because she wants to? Do you omit a qualification for an Elder because it doesn't fit the person? This is how Satan creeps into the church.

Do you believe that it is right to hold onto a man-made tradition; i.e., "the way we've always done things"; if it prevents your church from appealing to outsiders? Sometimes in the CofC we are so intent on not offending our weaker brother that we sacrifice our ability to reach the lost. That, in my mind, is the larger sin.

 

[Koey]

There are verses backing up all of the things i said. It's insanse to think baptism is not immersion. Why then did the Ethiopian stop the chariot and GO DOWN INTO the water. If you are going to represent the death, BURIAL, and ressurection of Christ you need to be submerged. And just because Jesus didn't say it himself doesn't mean it is not the word of God. Look at 2 Timothy 3:16

There are problems with your interpretation of the Bible. You will find few theologians who actually know their Greek that will argue that the mode of baptism is important, the fact of baptism is, but the mode is not really exactly specified in the Bible.

• If I go paddling ankle deep in the creek, I go down into the water. If I come up again out of the water from paddling, it does not mean that I was totally immersed. Some of the first pictures of Jesus' baptism showed him ankle deep in the Jordan with water being poured over him. The point is not which view is historically correct. The point is that nowhere in the Bible is baptism specified or even commanded as immersion.
• On the picture of baptism being like Jesus' burial. Jesus was not buried in the gound. He was buried above ground in a tomb, behind a stone. Taking the picture too literally forces a false interpretation and totally misses the point that Jesus was not buried in the ground. To take baptism as a literal picture rather than a figurative one, we would also have to magically stand water sideways and be "buried" sideways or perhaps in a waterfall. That does not happen. Therefore the picture is metaphorical not literal.

 

[Caleb4387]

Lets face it, there are no scriptures that really tell us whether or not to use wine or grape juice. Heck im goos with using grape flavored smirnoff

 

[Izdaari Eristikon]

Lets face it, there are no scriptures that really tell us whether or not to use wine or grape juice. Heck im goos with using grape flavored smirnoff

Grape flavored Smirnoff? That sounds gross no matter what you use it for!

But I agree that what you use is not terribly important. I remember the story of a Christian party somewhere in the wilderness improvising a communion service with potato chips and Coca-Cola, that being the closest things they had. I imagine God was pleased with them.

 

[Caleb4387]

Hey that works for me!

 

[RefrusRevlis]

The idea that unfermented grape juice would not be available all year round is incorrect. One ancient method of preserving grape juice was to boil it until it reduced down. Having a higher percentage of sugar meant that it kept for a long time.

Refrus

 

[Izdaari Eristikon]

The idea that unfermented grape juice would not be available all year round is incorrect. One ancient method of preserving grape juice was to boil it until it reduced down. Having a higher percentage of sugar meant that it kept for a long time.

Refrus

And I suppose that would be a good thing... if you like grape pancake syrup.

 

[Windlord]

The idea that unfermented grape juice would not be available all year round is incorrect. One ancient method of preserving grape juice was to boil it until it reduced down. Having a higher percentage of sugar meant that it kept for a long time.

Refrus

Actually that would have the exact opposite effect. The high concentration of sugar would make the yeast spread faster and make the syrupy liquid much, much, much more alcoholic. Yeast feeds on sugar (that's why bread baking involves sugar or honey so the yeast will spread through the dough). The more sugar the faster the yeast spreads and the more alcoholic it's going to be. That's why when you make Mead (wine made from honey) dry meads have much less honey in the mixture and have a lower alcohol content (9-11%) Whereas the heavier and more robust meads use 2 or sometimes 3 times as much honey and have anywhere between 15-21% alcohol content. The general rule of thumb is, the more sugar it has and the longer it's allowed to ferment the more alcoholic it's going to be. So something like what you described thats almost pure sugar and is allowed to sit and ferment for 6 months is going to be the equivalent of hard liquer, which is quite a bit beyond wine.