Yahweh hates wickedness ... is it ever good ?

yeshuaslavejeff

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Does ANY religion believe conversino therapuy (sic)

is good for converting people from unsaved to saved ?

Perhaps in different terms/ different words ?

I have not heard of any specific 'religion', Christian nor otherwise, that practices "conversion therapy" as a method to save anyone .....

But is this just a case of semantics then ?

Does anyone anywhere have a system of conversion therapy that is being used today or ever?
 

JackRT

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Does ANY religion believe conversino therapuy (sic)

is good for converting people from unsaved to saved ?

That is not what conversion therapy is about. It is about trying to change a person's natural sexual orientation ---usually from homosexual to heterosexual. It doesn't work and usually negatively affects their mental health. Many jurisdictions are banning it. Canada is about to do so.
 
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JackRT

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Can you stick with the topic of the title and op ?

The term "conversion therapy" is usually used in the sense of post #2. If you are speaking of religious conversion then I have no answer other than to refer to brainwashing techniques such as were practiced by cult leaders like Jim Jones and David Koresh.
 
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Sketcher

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I suppose defining "conversion therapy" needs to happen before a fruitful discussion can be had.

If it is a specific set of practices that have scientifically been shown to be ineffective or harmful, then I don't believe Christians should defend them. For instance: electro-shock therapy, nausea-inducing drugs, etc. If we shouldn't defend them, we shouldn't use them as a tool for witnessing.

If we are talking about using the Holy Spirit to promote discipline and transformation, using that to convert people is putting the cart before the horse, at best. While discipline should be promoted and transformation should be respected in Christians, it is also irresponsible to say to a sinner that you will be sanctified of sin X either completely or with visible progress by time Y if you really become a Christian (which is irresponsible to say to Christians too). So that doesn't seem like a good evangelical tool either.
 
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Aussie Pete

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Does ANY religion believe conversino therapuy (sic)

is good for converting people from unsaved to saved ?

Perhaps in different terms/ different words ?

I have not heard of any specific 'religion', Christian nor otherwise, that practices "conversion therapy" as a method to save anyone .....

But is this just a case of semantics then ?

Does anyone anywhere have a system of conversion therapy that is being used today or ever?
It's called the salvation of the soul. It is the work of the Lord Jesus and according to the will of the individual. The Holy Spirit's job is to convict of sin. We can point out the truth of God's word but we are not permitted to bully, intimidate or frighten people into a false repentance.

Satan hates everything to do with God's amazing creation, especially the human race. His "gender blender" assault on human sexuality is a direct attempt to destroy the image of God in mankind. However, it is not the only sin and focusing on it alone is counter productive.

There are stages to freedom. It is not "therapy". The root cause of homosexuality is rebellion, as is made clear in Romans 1. The first sin was disobedience and every other sin is an act of disobedience. Unless an individual recognises the reason for his/her bondage, or even that it is a bondage, then there is no point in trying to help them.

Satan has deceived people into thinking that they cannot change, that homosexuality is like the colour of your eyes and you are just born with it. That is utter rubbish. People are not born murderers or thieves. Sin is sin and needs to be confronted as such. Once the person agrees, we need to encourage them to walk in the freedom that Christ died to give us. That is not easy because (as is obvious from this forum) not so many know that freedom themselves. Free people can free people! (Robert Morris said that). And yes, there is a homosexual demon that has to be cast out.

I have a personal interest in this. One of the most talented and capable men I ever met was homosexual. He was saved, got married and had two kids. He backslid and went back to his former lifestyle. He died of AIDS. He repented before he passed away, but it was the waste of a life that could/should have been so much more.
 
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Quartermaine

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It's called the salvation of the soul. It is the work of the Lord Jesus and according to the will of the individual. The Holy Spirit's job is to convict of sin. We can point out the truth of God's word but we are not permitted to bully, intimidate or frighten people into a false repentance.

Satan hates everything to do with God's amazing creation, especially the human race. His "gender blender" assault on human sexuality is a direct attempt to destroy the image of God in mankind. However, it is not the only sin and focusing on it alone is counter productive.

There are stages to freedom. It is not "therapy". The root cause of homosexuality is rebellion, as is made clear in Romans 1. The first sin was disobedience and every other sin is an act of disobedience. Unless an individual recognises the reason for his/her bondage, or even that it is a bondage, then there is no point in trying to help them.

Satan has deceived people into thinking that they cannot change, that homosexuality is like the colour of your eyes and you are just born with it. That is utter rubbish. People are not born murderers or thieves. Sin is sin and needs to be confronted as such. Once the person agrees, we need to encourage them to walk in the freedom that Christ died to give us. That is not easy because (as is obvious from this forum) not so many know that freedom themselves. Free people can free people! (Robert Morris said that). And yes, there is a homosexual demon that has to be cast out.

I have a personal interest in this. One of the most talented and capable men I ever met was homosexual. He was saved, got married and had two kids. He backslid and went back to his former lifestyle. He died of AIDS. He repented before he passed away, but it was the waste of a life that could/should have been so much more.
Backslid or stopped lying?
 
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JackRT

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I have a personal interest in this. One of the most talented and capable men I ever met was homosexual. He was saved, got married and had two kids. He backslid and went back to his former lifestyle. He died of AIDS. He repented before he passed away, but it was the waste of a life that could/should have been so much more.

I would suggest that his "conversion" was able to change his sexual behaviour for a time but his sexual orientation remained unchanged.

“There is no published scientific evidence supporting the efficacy of 'reparative conversion therapy' as a treatment to change one's sexual orientation” the American Psychiatric Association has officially stated. "Clinical experience suggests that any person who seeks conversion therapy may be doing so because of social bias that has resulted in internalized homophobia, and that gay men and lesbians who have accepted their sexual orientation are better adjusted than those who have not done so."

Perhaps the most famous case study in the failure of reparative therapy is that of two founders of Exodus International in 1976, Michael Bussee and Gary Cooper, who worked to "convert" gay people for three years, until they fell in love and left Exodus in 1979. In 1982, they held a marriage ceremony and lived together until Cooper died nine years later. "The desires never go away," Bussee said. "After dealing with hundreds of people, I have not met one who went from gay to straight. Even if you manage to alter someone's sexual behavior, you cannot change their true sexual orientation."

Consider the reverse situation. As a heterosexual person I cannot imagine having to undergo some sort of therapy to convert me to homosexual. Moreover I cannot imagine it working. Homosexuality is certainly not a choice. Moreover, given the hatred, the condemnation and the persecution so prevalent in society, I cannot imagine anyone making that choice.

The recent moves to ban this sort of therapy should be welcomed by compassionate people everywhere.
 
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Sketcher

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Consider the reverse situation. As a heterosexual person I cannot imagine having to undergo some sort of therapy to convert me to homosexual. Moreover I cannot imagine it working. Homosexuality is certainly not a choice. Moreover, given the hatred, the condemnation and the persecution so prevalent in society, I cannot imagine anyone making that choice.
It seems to happen in American prisons.

The recent moves to ban this sort of therapy should be welcomed by compassionate people everywhere.
The moves I have heard about are too far-reaching. Promotion of discipline to remain celibate for instance, should not be penalized. Yet, as I understand the Canadian bill with the definition of conversion therapy it puts forth, it would be penalized.
 
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Greengardener

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Maybe it's not up to us to determine that homosexuality is actually a destiny. Many people backslide into drugs, alcohol, or whoremongering and we clearly call that backsliding. God gave us natural pleasures, natural highs, natural feelings of kinship with people both same and opposite sex, and natural sex between husband and wife (or wife and husband, as the case may be) and there are perversions that tempt people away from the natural into the ....well...the perversions of it. The only response that makes sense to me is to hold out the hope of the good news: Jesus died for all our sins, and we all have a bunch of them. We've been called to a holy life as His people and with His empowering, we are and will be His children, like Him as He is. But there is no conversion therapy that works to make us like Him other than yielding to His plan, hearing His voice, following as He walked, becoming transformed in our minds. My message to anyone is come and follow Jesus, the real Jesus, and learn of Him. He did a pretty thorough conversion on me and it looks like that's an offer open to "whosoever will."
 
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Aussie Pete

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I would suggest that his "conversion" was able to change his sexual behaviour for a time but his sexual orientation remained unchanged.

“There is no published scientific evidence supporting the efficacy of 'reparative conversion therapy' as a treatment to change one's sexual orientation” the American Psychiatric Association has officially stated. "Clinical experience suggests that any person who seeks conversion therapy may be doing so because of social bias that has resulted in internalized homophobia, and that gay men and lesbians who have accepted their sexual orientation are better adjusted than those who have not done so."

Perhaps the most famous case study in the failure of reparative therapy is that of two founders of Exodus International in 1976, Michael Bussee and Gary Cooper, who worked to "convert" gay people for three years, until they fell in love and left Exodus in 1979. In 1982, they held a marriage ceremony and lived together until Cooper died nine years later. "The desires never go away," Bussee said. "After dealing with hundreds of people, I have not met one who went from gay to straight. Even if you manage to alter someone's sexual behavior, you cannot change their true sexual orientation."

Consider the reverse situation. As a heterosexual person I cannot imagine having to undergo some sort of therapy to convert me to homosexual. Moreover I cannot imagine it working. Homosexuality is certainly not a choice. Moreover, given the hatred, the condemnation and the persecution so prevalent in society, I cannot imagine anyone making that choice.

The recent moves to ban this sort of therapy should be welcomed by compassionate people everywhere.
Do you think God is so powerless as to condemn a sin then not be able to help the one who suffers? Your God is way too small.
 
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JackRT

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Do you think God is so powerless as to condemn a sin then not be able to help the one who suffers? Your God is way too small.

My God is transcendent--- I can say nothing of God's powers. I do have my suspicions but I will not state them.
 
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Quartermaine

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It seems to happen in American prisons.

leaving aside the question of just how do you know what goes on in American prisons re read the first sentence of Jack's post: "I would suggest that his "conversion" was able to change his sexual behaviour for a time but his sexual orientation remained unchanged."
 
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Sketcher

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leaving aside the question of just how do you know what goes on in American prisons re read the first sentence of Jack's post: "I would suggest that his "conversion" was able to change his sexual behaviour for a time but his sexual orientation remained unchanged."
That's more than just behavior. The outward act is preceded by internal desire.
 
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Quartermaine

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Do you think God is so powerless as to condemn a sin then not be able to help the one who suffers? Your God is way too small.
this does nothing to change the fact that everything Jack said is true.
 
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