Yahweh: Benevolent God of Bloodthirsty Monster?

moo5009

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I apologize for the typo in the thread title. The 'of' is supposed to be 'or.' Carry on.
Hello believers. I'm going to start this off by giving you a little challenge. I'd like you to justify just one of the innumerable evils committed by Yahweh in the Old Testament. In 2 Chronicles 21:14-20. I'll post the passages.
21:14 Behold, with a great plague will the LORD smite thy people, and thy children, and thy wives, and all thy goods: 21:15 And thou shalt have great sickness by disease of thy bowels, until thy bowels fall out by reason of the sickness day by day. 21:16 Moreover the LORD stirred up against Jehoram the spirit of the Philistines, and of the Arabians, that were near the Ethiopians: 21:17 And they came up into Judah, and brake into it, and carried away all the substance that was found in the king's house, and his sons also, and his wives; so that there was never a son left him, save Jehoahaz, the youngest of his sons. 21:18 And after all this the LORD smote him in his bowels with an incurable disease. 21:19 And it came to pass, that in process of time, after the end of two years, his bowels fell out by reason of his sickness: so he died of sore diseases. And his people made no burning for him, like the burning of his fathers. 21:20 Thirty and two years old was he when he began to reign, and he reigned in Jerusalem eight years, and departed without being desired. Howbeit they buried him in the city of David, but not in the sepulchres of the kings.

I can list many many more, like how the LORD allowed Jephthah's daughter to be sacrificed by her own father. Let's see, there's also that bear incident... you know, where God send two she-bears to slaughter 42 children for mocking Elisha's baldness. I could go on, but I only asked you to justify your lord's giving of the terrible bowel disease. So, there you have it. THOU SHALT NOT KILL. Justify Yahweh's vicious murders.
 
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Bear.Fr00t

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THOU SHALT NOT KILL is commanded to mortal humans. God is the creator of life, and the taker of life. God creates life as he pleases, and takes life as he pleases. Who are we to question the God of the universe? God takes life every day, and will one day take yours. Why not submit to God rather than fight against Him?
 
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moo5009

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THOU SHALT NOT KILL is commanded to mortal humans. God is the creator of life, and the taker of life. God creates life as he pleases, and takes life as he pleases. Who are we to question the God of the universe? God takes life every day, and will one day take yours. Why not submit to God rather than fight against Him?
Exodus 15:3 The LORD is a man of war: the LORD is his name. Exodus 22:20 He that sacrificeth unto any god, save unto the LORD only, he shall be utterly destroyed.

So basically what you're saying is that God is somehow not bound to the rules he created. He's above his very own moral code. He certainly doesn't sound benevolent by nature by the way the bible describes him. In fact, he sounds more like a war god than anything in the Old Testament. God, at least by YOUR definition, which is being an omnipotent omnibenevolent being who loves all of his children dearly and has perfect moral standing, fails this standard extraordinarily in the bible. Additionally, if he's above his own moral standard that he set for us, of course he's going to be "perfect!" He doesn't count himself in his own standard of morality!
Imagine this. A dictator commits mass murder and genocide. His justification is that he's above his own law. Do you see how petty that is? It's certainly no justification for your god. Try again please. :doh:
 
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leftrightleftrightleft

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The Bible was compiled over an incredibly long time period and written by hundreds of different authors. While I do believe the Bible was, in some sense of the word, divinely inspired, I still do believe that any divine interpretation had to be conveyed through the lens of culture. As such, much of the Bible reflects the culture of the time period rather than the direct will of this divine entity we in the 21st century broadly refer to as "God".

For example, most of the nastiest verses in the Bible were compiled during periods when Israel was more powerful and ABLE to conquer and kill its enemies (largely during the reign of Josiah). God, as perceived through the cultural lens, then took on more war-like traits.

The Bible is supposed to perfectly portray God which is where me and Christian theology diverge. I don't think the Bible perfectly portrays God but rather gives one facet into his nature to be deciphered, debated and examined.
 
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razeontherock

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I'd like you to justify just one of the innumerable evils committed by Yahweh

I could go on, but I only asked you to justify your lord's giving of the terrible bowel disease. So, there you have it. THOU SHALT NOT KILL. Justify Yahweh's vicious murders.

1. We don't justify G-d, nor do we judge Him. You have that backwards!
2. If you're trying to understand what's going on here, you need to look into the Covenant. What do you know about that?
3. Why pretend the Judge of all the living and the dead is going to be affected by any opinion of ours?

I can list many many more, like how the LORD allowed Jephthah's daughter to be sacrificed by her own father. Let's see, there's also that bear incident... you know, where God send two she-bears to slaughter 42 children for mocking Elisha's baldness.

Understanding these 2 incidents is easy, and they've been covered in threads already. What I have found to be the hardest OT passage of this vein to comprehend is Numbers 31. You might be interested in the thread I started in our outreach section (in CWR) called "Maltheism and Numbers 31," where I've collected different info and ideas I've encountered on that troublesome chapter.
 
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razeontherock

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The Bible is supposed to perfectly portray God

:confused:

Says who? That's ridiculous. The Bible is filled w/ exposing human frailty, weakness, sin, and sinful tendencies, as well as the root cause of all that. You know; Spiritual matters! Jephthah is a perfect case in point. We have tons of anti-types and bad examples, which become examples of the law. Like the passage in question by the OP.
 
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bling

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Since God allows all humans to die is He a murder of all humans?
If God were to stop providing life to humans would that mean he murdered them?
How is ceasing to live on the earth bad for a Christian, since heaven awaits them?
Does death not stop bad people from doing bad stuff?
If someone repeatedly refuses God’s Love to the point they would never accept God’s Love (and God could know this), does their objective in this life (if they continue living), become that of helping those that might accept God’s Love to accept?
Do you want to avoid the fate of Jehoram?
 
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zaksmummy

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The first culture that God communed with was the Jews, they love God and think hes terrific. Reason why?

He was the only God of the ancient middle east who wanted to have a relationship with people and be worshipped, the other gods couldnt care less what happened to people.

He was the God that gave them a way to live and be happy - commonly called the Torah, which included how to worship him, how to do business, how to make war, what to eat, how to treat your animals, how to treat foreigners, and how to care for the poor in the community, no other society of that time cared a jot how people lived or died.

He was the God that was adamant that child sacrifice was abhorrent. Im sure you agree with that:)

Have you ever seen picture of Jewish people with their Torah scrolls? They love God and the laws he gave them so much that they dance with them.

Now why would you worship a God and dance with his laws if all you concentrated on was that he smote people?

Look at why he smote them, he had a good reason every time - he is after all a Holy God, he isnt fickle like us, he has told us what he expects, we disobey him at our peril!
 
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Harry3142

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moo5009-

How many would still be alive today if he had not killed them? The correct answer is zero. Everyone who has ever walked the earth has either died or will die. The only way around that is Christ's return. That is a 'given'. And according to our belief, God has decided each and every one of those deaths, including my wife's in 2008 and mine whenever that comes to pass.

Your OP 'smacks' of arrogance. Should God obey you rather than your obeying him? It will not happen. He will continue to rule, and we will continue to be his subjects. He is not a mayor, a governor, a president, or a prime minister; he is a king, and we are to see him as such.

The best example I have found concerning a proper attitude toward God and his work was exhibited by a crusty old farmer who lived in the Bible belt during the first part of the 20th century. He had married a good woman, reared his children, and sent them to school through his own toil. He was known in that area as being a 'crusty old coot', who wasn't afraid to speak his mind. Even the minister of the church his wife attended didn't really like being around him.

The farmer took his wife home after she had done some shopping in town on a certain day. When they arrived home, she went inside while he sat down on their front porch. She turned on the radio, whcih was broadcasting Orson Welles 'The War of the Worlds'. Like others who hadn't heard the introduction to the program, she thought that it was a real attack, and promptly went out to where her husband was sitting.

"God's destroying the world!" she told him.

His answer is still used by ministers of many different denominations as the attitude we are to have. His reply was, "Well, it's his'n, ain't it?"

Amen-
 
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salida

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lone soldier

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THOU SHALT NOT KILL is commanded to mortal humans. God is the creator of life, and the taker of life. God creates life as he pleases, and takes life as he pleases. Who are we to question the God of the universe? God takes life every day, and will one day take yours. Why not submit to God rather than fight against Him?

It is this belief that has caused me to move away from christianity.

God, as you portray him, is a hypocrite and unjust.

This is like saying, "Mary had a daughter, her daughter misbehaved, so Mary cut off her daughter's arms and legs and let her bleed to death. But Mary had the right because Mary is her mother and conceived her."

That is so wrong.
 
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razeontherock

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It is this belief that has caused me to move away from christianity.

God, as you portray him, is a hypocrite and unjust.

There is only 1 perspective from which this statement makes sense:

1 Cor 15:19 If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable."

Does that really describe you, or do you actually believe in your heart that Christ rose from the dead?
 
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zaksmummy

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It is this belief that has caused me to move away from christianity.

God, as you portray him, is a hypocrite and unjust.

This is like saying, "Mary had a daughter, her daughter misbehaved, so Mary cut off her daughter's arms and legs and let her bleed to death. But Mary had the right because Mary is her mother and conceived her."

That is so wrong.


Which commandment is that?

If you are referring to the commandment that says stone you disobiedient child than you are reading it completely wrong.

If you want to understant God comandments and how that are obeyed in the Jewish society you need to read the Talmud. It will show you that far from being blood thirsty and wanting to kill anyone who disobeys God is a very merciful and forgiving Father to his people. Have you not read the verse "I [God] desire mercy not sacrifice"?
 
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lone soldier

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Which commandment is that?

If you are referring to the commandment that says stone you disobiedient child than you are reading it completely wrong.

If you want to understant God comandments and how that are obeyed in the Jewish society you need to read the Talmud. It will show you that far from being blood thirsty and wanting to kill anyone who disobeys God is a very merciful and forgiving Father to his people. Have you not read the verse "I [God] desire mercy not sacrifice"?

I was referring to what the earlier poster said:

"THOU SHALT NOT KILL is commanded to mortal humans. God is the creator of life, and the taker of life. God creates life as he pleases, and takes life as he pleases. Who are we to question the God of the universe? God takes life every day, and will one day take yours. Why not submit to God rather than fight against Him?"

I don't believe God is the author of death. In my understanding and theology, that would be the DEVIL - not God.
 
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