Yahshua

[CherubRam]

Yahwah & Yahweh side-by-side. Note.

Mine shows a 120 percent increase in 20 years.

 

[SteveCaruso]

It shows that Yah was changed to Jah.

Not quite. Try again.

It also shows Yah endings.

Aye. And they are in the Bible, too. Why would the prefix be "changed" to prevent pronouncing 'yah' when the suffix wasn't?

 

[SteveCaruso]

Mine shows a 120 percent increase in 20 years.

Yes, because of the Sacred Name Movement and associated publications, solely.

 

[Open Heart]

Yahoshua has been around for more than 2000 year. Yahshuah has been around since the 1500's. Yahshua has been around since 1960's.

Not in English.

 

[CherubRam]

Not quite. Try again.

Most all scholars agree that God's name is Yah.



Quote from pages 217 and 218 of the Brown-Driver-Briggs. Ref # 3068-69 on page 217.
Brown-Driver-Briggs on page 218 states that, "Many recent scholars explain יהוה‎ as Hiph. of הוה equals היה "

הוה hawah / HWH is hawah.
היה hayah / HYH is hayah.


Note that the vowels are all " a."
יהוה Yahwah


The vowels are "a" in the Brown-Driver-Briggs, the NIV Exhaustive Concordance, and the Strong's Exhaustive Concordances.


If you are right and I am wrong, then God's prophecy through Moses failed; and Christ words failed. Think about that for a while. Jesus does not egual Yah.




Exodus 23:21
Pay attention to him and listen to what he says. Do not rebel against him; he will not forgive your rebellion, since my Name is in him.

John 17:11
I will remain in the world no longer, but they are still in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, protect them by the power of your name—the name you gave me—so that they may be one as we are one.

Hebrews 2:12
He says, “I will declare your name to my brothers; in the presence of the congregation I will sing your praises.”

 

[SteveCaruso]

Most all scholars agree that God's name is Yah.

"Yahweh" specifically.

הוה hawah / HWH is hawah.
היה hayah / HYH is hayah.

These are the uninflected forms. The lemmas. The dictionary forms.

When you look up a verb in an English dictionary you get "to do" "to eat" "to dance." The infinitive (to X) is the lemma form for English.

The Hebrew lemma form is the Qal masculine 3rd person singular Perfect.

Note that the vowels are all " a."
יהוה Yahwah

When הוה and היה are appropriately inflected in the Imperfect, the vowels are no longer all A-class in the way that you have repeatedly asserted.

What you've essentially done is insist that "He to dance" is the proper future tense in English. It is not.

Please stop repeating this. It is 100% categorically wrong.

(And to just copy and paste the same thing again and again is also against the forum rules.)

The vowels are "a" in the Brown-Driver-Briggs, the NIV Exhaustive Concordance, and the Strong's Exhaustive Concordances.

Only in the lemma form. Not the form you're insisting upon.

You are making a mistake that you would not be making if you simply took Hebrew 101 at any qualified institution. You learn how verbs actually work in the very first semester.

my Name is in him.

"Name" in Semitic languages in these contexts means "authority," just like in the English, "in the name of the king."

It does not mean a specific set of phonemes that are impossible for the language in question. Otherwise, all Greek-speaking Christians would be completely out of luck, because they could not make certain sounds relative to Hebrew.

 

[CherubRam]

"Yahweh" specifically.



These are the uninflected forms. The lemmas. The dictionary forms.

When you look up a verb in an English dictionary you get "to do" "to eat" "to dance." The infinitive (to X) is the lemma form for English.

The Hebrew lemma form is the Qal masculine 3rd person singular Perfect.



When הוה and היה are appropriately inflected in the Imperfect, the vowels are no longer all A-class in the way that you have repeatedly asserted.

What you've essentially done is insist that "He to dance" is the proper future tense in English. It is not.

Please stop repeating this. It is 100% categorically wrong.

(And to just copy and paste the same thing again and again is also against the forum rules.)



Only in the lemma form. Not the form you're insisting upon.

You are making a mistake that you would not be making if you simply took Hebrew 101 at any qualified institution. You learn how verbs actually work in the very first semester.



"Name" in Semitic languages in these contexts means "authority," just like in the English, "in the name of the king."

It does not mean a specific set of phonemes that are impossible for the language in question. Otherwise, all Greek-speaking Christians would be completely out of luck, because they could not make certain sounds relative to Hebrew.

Specifically Yah.

The Modern Hebrew rules are arbitrary according to the Rabbi's instructions.

People were put to death in the first century for speaking God's name. That MAY also be true about speaking Christ name.

 

[CherubRam]

Concealing the name of God

Concealing the name of God was not only a custom, it was also made a law.

The sages quoted, "This is my name for ever, and this is my memorial unto all generations" (Ex. iii. 15). Here the word "le-'olam" (forever) is written defectively, being without the "waw" for the vowel "o," which renders the reading "le-'allem" (to conceal; Ḳid. 71a).


Forty years prior to the destruction of the Temple, the priests ceased to pronounce the Name (Yoma39b). From that time the pronunciation of the Name was prohibited. "Whoever pronounces the Name forfeits his portion in the future world" (Sanh. xi. 1).
30 AD to 70 AD.

Abba Saul (2d cent.) condemned the profanation of the Tetragrammaton by classing those "that speak the Name according to its letters," with those who have no part in the future world (Sanh. x. 1); and according to 'Ab. Zarah 17b, one of the martyrs of Hadrian's time, Hananiah b. Teradion, was burned at the stake because he so uttered the Name.


The view that prayer is more effectual if the name of God is pronounced in it as it is written caused the scholars of Kairwan to address a question in the eleventh century to Hai Gaon with reference to the pronunciation of the Shem ha-Meforash, to which he answered that it might not be uttered at all outside the Holy Land (Hai Gaon, "Ṭa'am Zeḳenim," p. 55; see Löw, "Gesammelte Schriften," i. 204).


Because Hebrews dropped their 'ayins', to keep from saying God's name, hence we have "y'shua." Also spelled Yeshua, for which we have in Greek, "Iēsous" and "Isus." These are corruptions of the names that begin with "Yah."

Thirteen theophoric names with "Yeho" have corresponding forms where the letters eh have been omitted. There is a theory by Christian Ginsburg that this is due to Hebrew scribes omitting the "h", changing Jeho (יְהוֹ‎) into Jo (יוֹ‎), to make the start of "Yeho-" names not sound like an attempt to pronounce the Divine Name.
Theophoric Names: Theophoric name - Wikipedia

 

[SteveCaruso]

Specifically Yah.

The Modern Hebrew rules are arbitrary according to the Rabbi's instructions.

People were put to death in the first century for speaking God's name. That MAY also be true about speaking Christ name.

No, not in the 1st century. Pronouncing the name was part of the formal Jewish liturgy (according to Maimonides and the Talmud and several other contemporary sources). The full hedge and complete ban on pronouncing it did not crystalize until after the fall of the Temple. And then after that came, among some sects, a prohibition on writing it, too.

 

[SteveCaruso]

Forty years prior to the destruction of the Temple, the priests ceased to pronounce the Name (Yoma39b). From that time the pronunciation of the Name was prohibited.

Nope. Just checked Yoma 39b and you're wrong. The reference to 40 years has to do with the lot, the crimson thread, the westernmost light, and the doors of Hekal. Nothing about pronouncing the name. Shall I post the Aramaic here?

Abba Saul (2d cent.)

As I said, after the fall of the Temple (~70AD) is when the Name was no longer used in liturgy. This is too late.

Hananiah b. Teradion, was burned at the stake because he so uttered the Name.

Nope. Hananiah was burned by the Romans for teaching the Torah, not pronouncing the Name.

Because Hebrews dropped their 'ayins', to keep from saying God's name, hence we have "y'shua."

Nope. Dropping 'ayins has nothing to do with the Name. Zilch.

What in blazes do you think 'ayin is?? 'Ayin is a voiced glottal stop. In some words like עמורה /'amorah/ or "Gomorah" it was especially hard (ġayin) to the point that in Greek it was transliterated with a gamma (Γομορρα = /gomorra/).

'Ayin does not occur in the Name. And it's the last letter in ישוע /yeshuaˁ/ (we don't even tend to transcribe it in English). It is not part of the theophoric element.

So dropping it doesn't turn "Yeshua" into "Y'shua". When folks write it "Y'shua" the apostrophe represents a shorter e-class vowel or a shwa. Not an 'ayin.

this is due to Hebrew scribes omitting the "h", changing Jeho (יְהוֹ‎) into Jo (יוֹ‎), to make the start of "Yeho-" names not sound like an attempt to pronounce the Divine Name.

If this is an attempt to change "yah" you still have not accounted for why the suffix form is still yah, unchanged. This is a huge hole in your argument that you must account for.

The current consensus is that the difference between /yeho-/ and /yo-/ is simply a difference between north-kingdom Hebrew and south-kingdom Hebrew. That's it. The /yo-/ form was preferred by the Greek speaking Jews later, because Greek could not represent an "h" sound in the middle of a word. It could only do so at the beginning with a rough breathing mark or daseîa.

 

[CherubRam]

Nope. Just checked Yoma 39b and you're wrong. The reference to 40 years has to do with the lot, the crimson thread, the westernmost light, and the doors of Hekal. Nothing about pronouncing the name. Shall I post the Aramaic here?



As I said, after the fall of the Temple (~70AD) is when the Name was no longer used in liturgy. This is too late.



Nope. Hananiah was burned by the Romans for teaching the Torah, not pronouncing the Name.



Nope. Dropping 'ayins has nothing to do with the Name. Zilch.

What in blazes do you think 'ayin is?? 'Ayin is a voiced glottal stop. In some words like עמורה /'amorah/ or "Gomorah" it was especially hard (ġayin) to the point that in Greek it was transliterated with a gamma (Γομορρα = /gomorra/).

'Ayin does not occur in the Name. And it's the last letter in ישוע /yeshuaˁ/ (we don't even tend to transcribe it in English). It is not part of the theophoric element.

So dropping it doesn't turn "Yeshua" into "Y'shua". When folks write it "Y'shua" the apostrophe represents a shorter e-class vowel or a shwa. Not an 'ayin.



If this is an attempt to change "yah" you still have not accounted for why the suffix form is still yah, unchanged. This is a huge hole in your argument that you must account for.

The current consensus is that the difference between /yeho-/ and /yo-/ is simply a difference between north-kingdom Hebrew and south-kingdom Hebrew. That's it. The /yo-/ form was preferred by the Greek speaking Jews later, because Greek could not represent an "h" sound in the middle of a word. It could only do so at the beginning with a rough breathing mark or daseîa.

I am not sure, but I think the thread had to turn white before the priest could bless with God's name.

 

[SteveCaruso]

I am not sure, but I think the thread had to turn white before the priest could bless with God's name.

It was still used in the liturgy otherwise.

 

[CherubRam]

It was still used in the liturgy otherwise.

So the priest of God still felt worthy to speak God's name, even if the thread did not turn white?

 

[CherubRam]

?

 

[gadar perets]

Steve,

Please explain why the prefix of many names was changed to "Yeh", but the suffix was not. Also, please tell me how you would pronounce yod heh as in Psalm 68:4;

Sing unto Elohim, sing praises to His name: extol Him that rides upon the heavens by His name יה and rejoice before Him.​

 

[SteveCaruso]

So the priest of God still felt worthy to speak God's name, even if the thread did not turn white?

Simply put, the "total ban" did not solidify in Jewish practice across the board until after the fall of the Temple. (That event acted as a catalyst for a lot of traditions and practices.)

 

[CherubRam]

Simply put, the "total ban" did not solidify in Jewish practice across the board until after the fall of the Temple. (That event acted as a catalyst for a lot of traditions and practices.)

Thank you for your reply. It would be useful if you could provide some facts, like maybe a document, or something in history.

 

[CherubRam]

The correct choice of word to use in a translation would be because of context. Yah said that His name is in him (Christ.) Christ said that Yah’s name is in him. Therefore Christ name must be Yahshua to fulfill the word of God. What the Rabbi’s have done to the Hebrew language is make God out to be a liar. The word of God has not failed, people have failed God, and His son Yahshua.

 

[SteveCaruso]

Please explain why the prefix of many names was changed to "Yeh", but the suffix was not.

It was never a matter of change, but simply a matter of how Hebrew, as a language, works.

Take the letter S in English. For the most part, at the end of a word it's pronounced like /s/ after a voiceless consonant ("hats" "books" "sleeps"), /z/ after a voiced consonant ("dreams" "fans" "words"), but is pronounced /ɪz / or /əz/ after a sibilant, usually with "e" ("prizes" "dishes" "boxes").

And these rules are regular, and in some cases even change spelling. Just like how the word is not "inpossible" but "impossible." (Hebrew and Aramaic swap the first letter of passive verbs that begin with sibilants; ex. אתשלם /ethshalam/ becomes אשתלם /eshtalam/.)

This has to do with where sounds fall in the mouth and how that context influences how sounds move from one articulation to the next. Stress and other things also play a big part in it.

This is why in Hebrew, when the theophoric suffix appears at the beginning of a word it takes a different texture than when it falls at the end of a word. It's simply how the language works. It's not a conspiracy, nor an attempt to alter the theophoric.

It's the same reason why Yeshua becomes Iesous in Greek. Greek works differently than Hebrew, and only allows for certain clusters of consonants and vowels.

Also, please tell me how you would pronounce yod heh as in Psalm 68:4

יה on its own – neither a prefix nor a suffix in a name or other word or verbal construction – would simply be /yah/. But that can change immediately, the very moment its context changes.

 

[Paidiske]

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