Wow! Obama Proposes a 7 Year Peace Treaty???????

LastSeven

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Obama is not the antichrist because the antichrist has no desire for woman. Obama is married and has two children,

I don't think Obama is the antichrist either but that desire of woman thing has been misunderstood. The "desire of women" in those days was to be the mother of the expected Messiah. It has nothing to do with sexual desires. Here is a good explanation of it.

Daniel 11:37 says, “Neither shall he regard the God of his fathers, nor the desire of women, nor regard any god: for he shall magnify himself above all.”

Daniel is clearly speaking of things we call “God” and saying that the anti-Christ will consider himself superior to all of them. It doesn’t make any sense that he would insert a sexual reference into the middle of that. It would be out of context. To make sense the phrase “desire of women” has to refer to God. What’s more, the word translated desire appears 25 times in the Old Testament but never in a sexual context. Some translations of Daniel 11:37 say “the one desired (or beloved) by women” which in my opinion gives a more accurate view of Daniel’s intent.

In Genesis 3:15 the Redeemer is called the Eve’s “seed”. (This is actually a biological impossibility that provides our first hint of a virgin birth.) Eve thought she would give birth to the Redeemer and that’s why she named her 3rd son Seth. The name means “appointed” as if he was the appointed one. But he wasn’t and neither were any of her other sons. For all the generations between Eve and Mary every Godly woman’s fondest desire was to be the mother of the Messiah. To be so honored had been “the desire of women” through out all the generations of mankind.
 
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eclipsenow

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(sighs with amazement)

How do you even know Revelation is to be read as a timetable of human history to be deciphered and interpreted by current affairs in the first place? How about checking this basic presupposition? Ask yourselves, "Why do I think Revelation is primarily about the future?

There are many 'thief in the night' verses that explain we simply will not know, and should not try and guess. We should just stay 'alert', stay Christian, stay ready. So the following verses all tell us we will not know when the Lord will return. Emphatically.

1 Thessalonians 5:1-2
2 Thessalonians 2:2 — because people make errors about it!
Luke 12:40 // You also must be ready, because the Son of Man will come at an hour when you do not expect him.”//
Revelation 3:3
Revelation 16:15
How funny that so many people spend so much time trying to guess when "Revelation" is about to happen, when there are 2 clear warnings in the same book that we simply will not know when the Lord will return.

For more see the thread "What are your Presuppositions re: Revelation?"
 
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Jensghost

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(sighs with amazement)

How do you even know Revelation is to be read as a timetable of human history to be deciphered and interpreted by current affairs in the first place? How about checking this basic presupposition? Ask yourselves, "Why do I think Revelation is primarily about the future?

There are many 'thief in the night' verses that explain we simply will not know, and should not try and guess. We should just stay 'alert', stay Christian, stay ready. So the following verses all tell us we will not know when the Lord will return. Emphatically.

1 Thessalonians 5:1-2
2 Thessalonians 2:2 — because people make errors about it!
Luke 12:40 // You also must be ready, because the Son of Man will come at an hour when you do not expect him.”//
Revelation 3:3
Revelation 16:15
How funny that so many people spend so much time trying to guess when "Revelation" is about to happen, when there are 2 clear warnings in the same book that we simply will not know when the Lord will return.

For more see the thread "What are your Presuppositions re: Revelation?"

You are not taking into account all of the signs we were given.

Here, Jesus just got done saying that no one knows the day or hour and then gives a sign:

Mat 24:36"No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.
Mat 24:37As it was in the days of Noah, so it will be at the coming of the Son of Man.
Mat 24:38For in the days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, up to the day Noah entered the ark;
Mat 24:39and they knew nothing about what would happen until the flood came and took them all away. That is how it will be at the coming of the Son of Man.


Here, Paul says no one knows but tells the church it will not surprise us:

1 Thessalonians 5


1But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.
2For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
3For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. 4But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.


2 Timothy 3


1This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come.
2For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy,
3Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good,
4Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;
5Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.
6For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts, 7Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.


Besides that, Jesus constantly told us to WATCH for Him.

Mat 24:42"Therefore keep watch, because you do not know on what day your Lord will come.
 
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Jensghost

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President Obama is NOT the antichrist.

Look for someone who can make a peace treaty between Israel and their Arab neighbors - enemies. THAT will begin the 7-year period.

There is no scripture that says the antichrist will make a 7 year peace treaty with anyone.
 
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eclipsenow

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Jens
Here, Paul says no one knows but tells the church it will not surprise us:
The verses you quote are not about us 'knowing' when the Lord will return — but about us being prepared. You are reading your presuppositions all over the plain reading of the text.

Keeping watch for Jesus in Matthew 24 is tricky. The disciples have just asked Jesus about when the temple will be destroyed, but then they also slip in a question about the sign of Jesus coming and the end of the age.

So we have to be very careful when reading Matthew 24 to ask, what is the actual subject here? Is it the temple and the end of the temple era, with the new gospel age having come because of Jesus death and resurrection — THE focal point of all history — or is it finally talking about the final judgement?

In one biblical perspective the final Judgement Day is almost an anti-climax compared to the great mystery of the ages, which was God the Word letting himself become Incarnate Human, and then letting himself be murdered!!! That is unthinkable! That is the great surprise in God's plans! Yet it is the fulfilment of all God's promises.

No wonder there is highly symbolic language about the temple being destroyed as 'the end'. Verse 34 makes clear that 'this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened'.

So I take everything prior to that being about the end of the temple. EG: The gospel was preached to 'all nations' of the 'world' — at least from an ancient perspective — by AD 70. The gospel had already gone out to the ancient world as Jesus commanded.

So I take it that all that rich language prior to 34 is about the destruction of the temple, even the language of 'stars will fall from the sky'. It's rich apocalyptic imagery describing the end of God's temple, that old symbol of God's presence in his people. Should we expect anything less? The end of the temple was something Jesus DID warn about!

However, by verse 36 we see Jesus back to his surprise return on Judgement Day.
"36 “But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father. As it was in the days of Noah, so it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. 38 For in the days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, up to the day Noah entered the ark; 39 and they knew nothing about what would happen until the flood came and took them all away. That is how it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. 40 Two men will be in the field; one will be taken and the other left. 41 Two women will be grinding with a hand mill; one will be taken and the other left."
Pre-Mils tend to just ignore the flood in this verse! I don't know how they do it. Judgement will be sudden, unexpected, and final. Noah wasn't rescued up high in his ark while judgement took a slow and leisurely 7 years on the ground! This is Jesus saying Judgement Day will be sudden and disastrous for those who do not know him.

So all the 'keep watch' stuff is about living faithfully, as 45-51 makes clear. Be caught doing the right thing, not the wrong thing. 'Keep watch' is less about being busy trying to do what Jesus specifically tells us NOT to do — go looking for his return — and more about being busy doing the things he HAS told us to do — preach the gospel to all generations.
 
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John S

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There is no scripture that says the antichrist will make a 7 year peace treaty with anyone.
I NEVER said that a 7-year treaty would be signed. I said that peace treaties would be signed between Israel and their Arab neighbors. This would lead to a 3 and a half year period which will end with the antichrist's death and resurrection followed by a period of 2 and a half years when the antichrist is completely in charge followed by 1 year of hell breaking loose.
You MIGHT try reading the Book of Revelations for yourself and not relying on what others tell you it says.
 
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Jensghost

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I NEVER said that a 7-year treaty would be signed. I said that peace treaties would be signed between Israel and their Arab neighbors. This would lead to a 3 and a half year period which will end with the antichrist's death and resurrection followed by a period of 2 and a half years when the antichrist is completely in charge followed by 1 year of hell breaking loose.
You MIGHT try reading the Book of Revelations for yourself and not relying on what others tell you it says.

Including you, no doubt, because absolutely none of what you just said is found in scripture.
 
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Jensghost

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Jens

The verses you quote are not about us 'knowing' when the Lord will return — but about us being prepared. You are reading your presuppositions all over the plain reading of the text.

Keeping watch for Jesus in Matthew 24 is tricky. The disciples have just asked Jesus about when the temple will be destroyed, but then they also slip in a question about the sign of Jesus coming and the end of the age.

So we have to be very careful when reading Matthew 24 to ask, what is the actual subject here? Is it the temple and the end of the temple era, with the new gospel age having come because of Jesus death and resurrection — THE focal point of all history — or is it finally talking about the final judgement?

In one biblical perspective the final Judgement Day is almost an anti-climax compared to the great mystery of the ages, which was God the Word letting himself become Incarnate Human, and then letting himself be murdered!!! That is unthinkable! That is the great surprise in God's plans! Yet it is the fulfilment of all God's promises.

No wonder there is highly symbolic language about the temple being destroyed as 'the end'. Verse 34 makes clear that 'this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened'.

So I take everything prior to that being about the end of the temple. EG: The gospel was preached to 'all nations' of the 'world' — at least from an ancient perspective — by AD 70. The gospel had already gone out to the ancient world as Jesus commanded.

So I take it that all that rich language prior to 34 is about the destruction of the temple, even the language of 'stars will fall from the sky'. It's rich apocalyptic imagery describing the end of God's temple, that old symbol of God's presence in his people. Should we expect anything less? The end of the temple was something Jesus DID warn about!

However, by verse 36 we see Jesus back to his surprise return on Judgement Day.
Pre-Mils tend to just ignore the flood in this verse! I don't know how they do it. Judgement will be sudden, unexpected, and final. Noah wasn't rescued up high in his ark while judgement took a slow and leisurely 7 years on the ground! This is Jesus saying Judgement Day will be sudden and disastrous for those who do not know him.

So all the 'keep watch' stuff is about living faithfully, as 45-51 makes clear. Be caught doing the right thing, not the wrong thing. 'Keep watch' is less about being busy trying to do what Jesus specifically tells us NOT to do — go looking for his return — and more about being busy doing the things he HAS told us to do — preach the gospel to all generations.

Well, I agree with some of what you said. We are to watch by being ready at any moment.

I also agree that Jesus in Matthew 24 is speaking both of the events leading up and including the destruction of the temple as well as what happens just after the 2000 year tribulation is cut short, namely His return.
 
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Jensghost

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YES - It is - in Revelations. I can't help it if you don't believe me. It's there in black and white. PLEASE try reading it for yourself.
Would you mind quoting the verse in Revelation that tells you there is a peace treaty between anyone or that the antichrist dies and is resurrected or that "all hell will break loose" for a year?
 
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eclipsenow

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These are the last days because:

Paul tells Timothy to have nothing to do with ungodly in the 'last days'.

2 Timothy 3

1 But mark this: There will be terrible times in the last days. 2 People will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boastful, proud, abusive, disobedient to their parents, ungrateful, unholy, 3 without love, unforgiving, slanderous, without self-control, brutal, not lovers of the good, 4 treacherous, rash, conceited, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God— 5 having a form of godliness but denying its power. Have nothing to do with such people.

James warns Rich Oppressors alive at his time.
James 5Your gold and silver are corroded. Their corrosion will testify against you and eat your flesh like fire. You have hoarded wealth in the last days.

We have been in the recurring waltz of the tribulations of the 'last days' for 2000 years. The Lord might return in 2 seconds or another 2000 years, we just don't know. But what we do know is that The Last Day is the day the dead are raised to life or the 2nd death, the sheep are sorted from the goats, the wheat from the chaff, us Christians are saved and the ungodly condemned, we are changed in the twinkling of an eye, and there are a New Heavens and a New Earth.

We know from the clear teaching of the rest of the NT that we're in for some tough times, but the gospel will be preached to 'all nations'. As far as I know, that may have been biblically fulfilled in Acts — and is just still going on now out of God's mercy. Whatever. The main point is that we are IN those 'tribulations' of Revelation now. John is picking up OT themes and images and wrapping them around the gospel basics to give the suffering Christians of his day hope and understanding of his time.

John is explaining and expanding on the Old Testament! He is interpreting that to be about the gospel. It is not our job to try and reinterpret him to be about us! That's the worst hermeneutics I've ever heard of. (Other than running to Genesis with Charles Darwin in mind, pro-or-anti. You'll miss the actual concerns of the passage.)

Genesis and Revelation, the first and the last books of the bible, seem to be the main books dividing the church. Shame the church can't get the BIG PICTURE from all the material in between those books that then explains those books!
 
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Jensghost

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These are the last days because:

Paul tells Timothy to have nothing to do with ungodly in the 'last days'.



James warns Rich Oppressors alive at his time.


We have been in the recurring waltz of the tribulations of the 'last days' for 2000 years. The Lord might return in 2 seconds or another 2000 years, we just don't know. But what we do know is that The Last Day is the day the dead are raised to life or the 2nd death, the sheep are sorted from the goats, the wheat from the chaff, us Christians are saved and the ungodly condemned, we are changed in the twinkling of an eye, and there are a New Heavens and a New Earth.

We know from the clear teaching of the rest of the NT that we're in for some tough times, but the gospel will be preached to 'all nations'. As far as I know, that may have been biblically fulfilled in Acts — and is just still going on now out of God's mercy. Whatever. The main point is that we are IN those 'tribulations' of Revelation now. John is picking up OT themes and images and wrapping them around the gospel basics to give the suffering Christians of his day hope and understanding of his time.

John is explaining and expanding on the Old Testament! He is interpreting that to be about the gospel. It is not our job to try and reinterpret him to be about us! That's the worst hermeneutics I've ever heard of. (Other than running to Genesis with Charles Darwin in mind, pro-or-anti. You'll miss the actual concerns of the passage.)

Genesis and Revelation, the first and the last books of the bible, seem to be the main books dividing the church. Shame the church can't get the BIG PICTURE from all the material in between those books that then explains those books!

You still aren't addressing the finer details, dismissing them as figurative, and chastizing people who do address them. There is much, much more to it all than what you are saying. You are only scratching the surface.
 
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eclipsenow

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I have addressed all your 'finer details' such as the outrageous allegorising of the bible through numerology that you seem fixated with. I've asked you to show me ONE time in scripture where the number 1000 is literal. And I've asked you to justify why you don't see 120 years in Gen 6:3 as literally about the limit to the human lifespan, but somehow about the timeline for the whole of humanity.

You're so fixated on details you've zoomed the microscope in too far and are starting to see things that just aren't there!
 
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Jensghost

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I have addressed all your 'finer details' such as the outrageous allegorising of the bible through numerology that you seem fixated with. I've asked you to show me ONE time in scripture where the number 1000 is literal. And I've asked you to justify why you don't see 120 years in Gen 6:3 as literally about the limit to the human lifespan, but somehow about the timeline for the whole of humanity.

You're so fixated on details you've zoomed the microscope in too far and are starting to see things that just aren't there!


It's not numerology. God has set timetables. Six days to work, rest on the 7th, called the Sabbath. He said there is a Sabbath rest for the people of God, and the implication is that there were previously 6 days prior to that Sabbath rest.

Hbr 4:9There remains, then, a Sabbath-rest for the people of God;

Isa 11:10In that day the Root of Jesse will stand as a banner for the peoples; the nations will rally to him, and his place of rest will be glorious.

Gen 6: 3And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years.

He said that His spirit will not strive with fallen flesh and numbered those days to 120. We know that is not a lifespan because: #1 God was speaking of the amount of time His Spirit would strive with fallen flesh and #2 a lifespan is defined as 70 years and God doesn't contradict himself and #3 God told mankind to count time in 50's and #4 it's no coincidence that 120 x 50 = 6000 years and just about that much time has passed and the signs are all here that precede the Day of the Lord/Sabbath rest for the people of God.

Furthermore, Revelation is specifically divided/numbered by God Himself. The 7 sealed scroll is numbered. The trumpets are numbered. The bowls are numbered. They occur in order.

Numbering things and timetables is part of orderliness.
 
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eclipsenow

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Jen is absolutely right on this. No doubt about it.
How so LastSeven? I don't see anywhere in Scripture that says we are to read the bible this way. There are other threads where I've tried time and again to get Jen to explain why the numbers are multiplied like that, and not 2 other sets of numbers at random.

EG: Daniel has some pretty interesting number schemes in Daniel chapter 9. Why aren't these just multiplied out by 1000 because 'a day with the Lord is like a thousand years..."? Why? Oh, because then the numbers wouldn't make the return of the Lord imminent enough.

But on the other hand, how imminent is Jen's maths really? Don't we have a few hundred years to go? Ok, if that's the case, then surely many people will think there's no urgency and we can go back to sleep for a bit. My family and friends that have not accepted the Lord, well, I can take my time. Because he can't really return suddenly in judgement tonight, that would break Jen's timetable for him. ;)

Me? I think I'll stick with the bible's clearer statements which warn to be on guard because he'll return like a thief, and that no one knows the day or hour.

Indeed, if history has a 7000 year clear bible timeline, why on earth didn't Paul point this out in clear language to the Thessalonians (2 Thess 2) who were worried that the Lord had already returned, and that some had missed it? Paul could have just explained "No, there's 3000 years to go!" Ummm, there's a reason Paul didn't. it's not in the bible. Jen is forcing his 7000 year plan onto the text by multiplying 2 verses together that have no business being together. :doh:

Or consider 1 Thess 5. Why did Paul write to them that dates and times are not important, and urge them to be prepared for the Lord's return at any moment because he will return like a thief in the night?

Now, brothers and sisters, about times and dates we do not need to write to you, 2 for you know very well that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night. 3 While people are saying, “Peace and safety,” destruction will come on them suddenly, as labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape. 4 But you, brothers and sisters, are not in darkness so that this day should surprise you like a thief. 5 You are all children of the light and children of the day. We do not belong to the night or to the darkness. 6 So then, let us not be like others, who are asleep, but let us be awake and sober. 7 For those who sleep, sleep at night, and those who get drunk, get drunk at night. 89 For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ. 10


The answer is obvious. We are not to know when, so that the church remains faithfully and urgently on task. We don't want to be found doing the wrong thing, like the 10 Virgins who were unprepared for the Bridegrooms return.

Indeed, if I were to sum up the whole teaching of Revelation — especially in the light of Jesus teaching and the rest of the NT epistles — it would be this.
"Stay faithful Christian, even when bad things happen in this world, because one awesome Day the Lord will return and bring Judgement and Salvation and a New Heaven and New Earth. Stay faithful, because it is worth it! Stay faithful, because you will not know when, and it could be tonight."

That's it. It's that simple. Now there are all sorts of Old Testament images and ideas that John nails to this message and reinterprets to us in the light of the gospel message, but that's it.

And Jens message directly contradicts this whole New Testament on being prepared. For if he is right, I might take a holiday. We've got time, so there's no urgency.
 
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