Would you tell your priest he had a hole in his pants?

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MariaRegina

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My dearest friends:

WOULD YOU TELL YOUR PRIEST THAT HE HAD A HOLE IN HIS PANTS?

TRUE STORY:

A celibate priest recently chastized his parish for failing to point out that he had a hole in his pants because no one pointed it out to him. (Now, if he were a married priest, his wife probably would have received a call alerting her about this problem, but alas, no one called him or his secretary.) The poor priest discovered the huge hole when he changed his clothes before retiring!

I don't mean for this to be a debate on married priests vs. celibate priests. I see the benefits of having both a monastic priesthood and a married priesthood.

If a priest is going to be celibate, however, I believe that the monastic life will help him to keep his vows and grow in holiness, if the monastery is well regulated and is truly a place of sanctity. Furthermore, the monastic can devote his full time to the ministry and not worry about the support of a wife and children.

It would be better if most celibate diocesan priests were monastics because celibate diocesan priests face severe temptations due to loneliness. However, abbots of monasteries should be carefully selected so that they are holy men of God yet also gifted with common sense to run the monastery efficiently.

WHY CANNOT WE HAVE BOTH A MARRIED PRIESTHOOD AND A CELIBATE ONE?

As most of the Apostles were married men, there is a tradition that allows married men to be ordained to the priesthood.

The Eastern Catholic Churches and the Eastern Orthodox Churches have continued the apostolic tradition of ordaining married men to the priesthood. Note: priest cannot marry, they must be married before their ordination to the diaconate.

Anglican clergy converts to Catholicism are given special permission to be ordained to the Catholic priesthood if approved by Rome.

Any comments?

Elizabeth
 

MariaRegina

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Dear Geo:

I wanted to catch your attention and see if you were in favor of returning to the more ancient practice of having some married priests around. That's all. I succeeded!

Perhaps we will have less embarrassed priests because of my posts. That's my intention also.

Celibacy vs. Chastity

I'm in favor of monasticism in which the priest takes a vow of chastity. The vow of chastity means that you carefully guard your eyes from wandering as well as your thoughts. You vow before God, the Blessed Virgin Mary, all the saints and your fellow monastics to be chaste in thought, word, and deed. It's a much higher calling than mere celibacy.

It seems that the vow of celibacy has a loophole. A person promises to be celibate (to never marry) but they don't take a vow of chastity. Do you see the danger? Sins against chastity don't violate celibacy.

Do you have any pregnant scripture quotes or quotes from the Early Church Fathers that relate to this topic of celibacy, chastity, monasticism, or the married priesthood?

Lovingly in Christ,
Elizabeth
 
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geocajun

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chanterhanson said:
Dear Geo:

It seems that the vow of celibacy has a loophole. A person promises to be celibate (to never marry) but they don't take a vow of chastity. Do you see the danger? Sins against chastity don't violate celibacy.


I do not see a "loophole" - we call that sin "Fornication"

CCC 2353. "Fornication is carnal union between an unmarried man and an unmarried woman. It is gravely contrary to the dignity of persons and of human sexuality which is naturally ordered to the good of spouses and the generation and education of children. Moreover, it is a grave scandal when there is corruption of the young."
 
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Papist

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I agree with Elizabeth. The first pope was married (he had a mother-in-law). Priestly celibacy has nothing to do with Sacred Tradition. I believe (correct me if I'm wrong) that it came about from the problems of clergy children inheriting Church property.

I think there is a place for monastic priests and married priests.

On the subject of chastity, it has long been an accepted (but not openly condoned) practice among some clergy in countries such as Poland, Ireland and Italy, to sleep with one's 'housekeeper' in a committed, loving, long-term sexual relationship. I would love to see that regularised and brought into the open, within Marriage, so it doesn't have to be a sordid, hidden-away thing.
 
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MariaRegina

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Papist said:
I agree with Elizabeth. The first pope was married (he had a mother-in-law). Priestly celibacy has nothing to do with Sacred Tradition. I believe (correct me if I'm wrong) that it came about from the problems of clergy children inheriting Church property.

Dearest Papist:

Inheritance of Church property is probably the primary reason why bishops are required to be celibate, since they hold the title to the diocesan churches. Nepotism is also a factor as the sons of the Bishops could be appointed to the most wealthy and prestigious parishes.

However, I also heard that the bishops were jealous that priests could be happily married while the lonely bishop had to live a celibate life. You probably are aware that rich families wanted their sons to be promoted to a bishopric. It was a powerful political position. Sadly, even today, not all bishops are saintly. This is true in both the Catholic and Orthodox Churches.

Anyway, around 800 AD the Vatican tried to promote priestly celibacy but it was not enforced universally until sometime between the 13th to 15th century. In 1054 AD, priestly celibacy was listed as one of the reasons for the schism between the East and the West.

Papist said:
I think there is a place for monastic priests and married priests.

Yes, I personally believe that a lot of celibate diocesan priests have a very difficult time preserving themselves free from sexual immorality. Many do remain chaste, and they are a blessing for the Church, but it is a very hard life. If celibate priests were to live in a monastery under a good spiritual father, it would be easier to live a pure life.

Papist said:
On the subject of chastity, it has long been an accepted (but not openly condoned) practice among some clergy in countries such as Poland, Ireland and Italy, to sleep with one's 'housekeeper' in a committed, loving, long-term sexual relationship. I would love to see that regularised and brought into the open, within Marriage, so it doesn't have to be a sordid, hidden-away thing.

I haven't heard of this. I hope this is just a vicious rumor circulated by those who want the priest to be able to marry.

Notice:

In the married clergy, the married men are ordained to the diaconate and then to the priesthood after they are married. A married priest who loses his wife due to divorce or death cannot remarry. Also in the Eastern Catholic and Eastern Orthodox Churches, a celibate or monastic priest cannot marry. The married priest can only be married once, "the husband of one wife".

Some radical groups want celibate priests to be given permission to marry. This could cause real problems.

Yours in Christ,
Elizabeth
 
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B4Eddie

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chanterhanson said:
My dearest friends:

Anglican clergy converts to Catholicism are given special permission to be ordained to the Catholic priesthood if approved by Rome.

Any comments?

Elizabeth

Not Just Anglicans. Other married Protestants with sufficient pastoral experience have been allowed to study and be ordained.

I don't think Catholics who become Protestant ministers, repent, and return to the Curch are allowed to be ordained, whether they are married or not. Anybody know?

There was a case of a priest who walked away, got married, worked as a truck driver, and came back. The article said he lives in the rectory with his daughter and still drives trucks to make ends meet. Either his wife died or the marriage wasn't recognised because of the way he bailed. It took years for him to get a dispensation, and that only because a priest friend insisted he try to come back!
 
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B4Eddie

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humblejoe said:
Whoa, here I thought this was gonna be about telling the priest about a hole in his pants, and here we are discussing marriage and the priesthood. Wowee zowee... :eek:

But anyways, back to the question... Yes, I would tell the priest.

Holes in pants? Holes in canon law? There's a difference?
 
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Oblio

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Was the burned cassock made of polyester?

As a matter of fact it was, some pinhead size holes that were low and very hard to see until we were out at our new church site in the sunlight. A cotton/poly mix was the consensus. We were trying to come up with something cool (we are in the deep south), that does not require a lot of ironing (now that may be a good reason for a Matushka ...)
 
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B4Eddie

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Papist said:
I agree with Elizabeth. The first pope was married (he had a mother-in-law). Priestly celibacy has nothing to do with Sacred Tradition. I believe (correct me if I'm wrong) that it came about from the problems of clergy children inheriting Church property.

I think there is a place for monastic priests and married priests.

On the subject of chastity, it has long been an accepted (but not openly condoned) practice among some clergy in countries such as Poland, Ireland and Italy, to sleep with one's 'housekeeper' in a committed, loving, long-term sexual relationship. I would love to see that regularised and brought into the open, within Marriage, so it doesn't have to be a sordid, hidden-away thing.

That is called "gross concubincy." A priest would have to be pretty desperate to sleep with most of the housekeepers I've seen.

Celebacy is not the same as Chastity. It is a discipline that can be rescinded at the stroke of a papal pen. I don't know if Religious Chastity has the same status, but it does have the same issues for life outside the monastary.
 
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MariaRegina

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My dearest Eddie:

With celibacy -- Doesn't the priest promise before God and the Bishop that he will not marry? If a celibate priest leaves the priesthood and gets married without a dispensation, the marriage is not valid.

With chastity -- it's a further step, the monastic vows to be pure in thought, word, and deed by his vow of chastity. Again, if the priest leaves the monastery, he must get a dispensation and be laicized by the Vatican before he is allowed to marry.

Within Orthodoxy, a novice who has vowed obedience is forbidden to marry. As far as I know there is no dispensation. If a monastic leaves and marries, he is excommunicated.

Hope this helps!

Any comments?

Your sister in Christ,
Elizabeth
 
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chanterhanson said:
Dearest Papist:

Some radical groups want celibate priests to be given permission to marry. This could cause real problems.

Yours in Christ,
Elizabeth

I must be in that "radical group". I personally do not see why a priest can not or should not be married. Years ago this was a practice that was accepted, now it is not. Do I think this would stop some of the sexual problems within the church.......no, as evidenced by those Churches who allow their pastors to be married.

Chanterhanson.........what "real problems" would this present if priests were allowed to be married?
 
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Papist said:
On the subject of chastity, it has long been an accepted (but not openly condoned) practice among some clergy in countries such as Poland, Ireland and Italy, to sleep with one's 'housekeeper' in a committed, loving, long-term sexual relationship. I would love to see that regularised and brought into the open, within Marriage, so it doesn't have to be a sordid, hidden-away thing.

:mad:

Our parish has 3 priests straight out of Ireland. One is a visiting priest from an all boys school in Ireland. They do not "sleep" with their housekeeper and I doubt this is a widely practice among the Irish, Italian and Polish priests.

Papist most diocese move their priests about every few years, so how would they be able to establish a "long term sexual relationship" with their housekeeper?
 
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