Would you ever vote for a lawmaker who supports murdering babies?

SavedByGrace3

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Premarital sex is not justified. It is forbidden - Ephesians 5:3. You might add outlawing premarital sex to your demands. Jesus outlawed adultery and lust. Is that not too strict? You might outlaw murder, war and assault rifles while you are at it. Adults should not be murdered too. If you get that far, you might not bear false witness also.
Again, this is your list, not mine. Not sure who you are talking to here.... it is not me.
 
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FenderTL5

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..if I advocate for all things that Christ said to do, then I murder someone, or cheerfully vote someone into office to murder someone, how well have I done following Christ's commands?
[Jas 2:10 KJV] 10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one [point], he is guilty of all.
Likewise, if you oppose abortion but vote someone onto office who openly supports measures that are counter to Christ teachings on the poor, the widower, the elderly and the immigrants, have you followed Christ's commands? Does not James 2 apply in that situation also?

Your fights are valuable...IF you are using your own resources to help the widow or orphan. But if you fight to take from others to use for your causes, you are a hypocrite, because you ignore one part of the law (do not steal) in favor of another.
You consider it stealing to use the weight of government to enforce the teachings of Christ concerning the poor, the elderly, the immigrants etc but have no qualm about the use of government (and indeed tax dollars) to enforce the Christian prohibition on abortion? That is cognitive dissonance.

You are in no position to call anyone a hypocrite (none of us are).
 
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Derf

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Aha calling me hypocrites .. Good start.. not interested in name calling. Have a blessed Thanks Giving.
That's a little funny, don't you think, since you started off with a post calling Christians who, you think, don't take care of widows, orphans, and strangers hypocrites, yet you are offended with me saying something similar about you--with bible verse to back it up? If we as Christians can't abide being called hypocrites when we deserve it, we must not be willing to hear our Lord, who often called the religious leaders hypocrites--not just to demean them, but to get them to change their ways.
 
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peaceful-forest

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Looking at history and all it's atrocities, people always wonder why the Christian masses simply "went along" (although there are numerous examples of the few who sacrificed themselves)? But most of these events took place in Gov'ts where the people didn't have much of a say such as Stalin, Pol Pot, Hitler, Mao...
But in America, we constantly have Christians who will vote for politicians who will make every effort to continue infanticide in our country because they value other issues as more important to them.
Not looking to argue...just trying to understand what the mindset is from those who feel this way? How do you justify this? Am I the one being too legalistic?
Thanks
I don't think there's anything wrong with not voting for a politician on the grounds of abortion. Murder is a terrible sin. God thought it was so awful he demanded the murderer be put to death (see Genesis 9:5-6). God can raise people back from the dead, but we can't.

I went to church with a woman who claimed to be a Christian, had biological children, even had foster children, but believed that abortion was okay. She even told another church member that she "couldn't vote for Trump because he was anti-abortion". Because this woman was so pro-abortion, her and this other church member don't associate with each other anymore. I know we shouldn't judge, but can this woman truly be a Christian if she's pro-abortion? Does God convict her? If He does, how is she able to ignore it?

There are other solutions to the problem. There are so many pro-life centers available for help. The baby can be put up for adoption.
 
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dqhall

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I don't think there's anything wrong with not voting for a politician on the grounds of abortion. Murder is a terrible sin. God thought it was so awful he demanded the murderer be put to death (see Genesis 9:5-6). God can raise people back from the dead, but we can't.

I went to church with a woman who claimed to be a Christian, had biological children, even had foster children, but believed that abortion was okay. She even told another church member that she "couldn't vote for Trump because he was anti-abortion". Because this woman was so pro-abortion, her and this other church member don't associate with each other anymore. I know we shouldn't judge, but can this woman truly be a Christian if she's pro-abortion? Does God convict her? If He does, how is she able to ignore it?

There are other solutions to the problem. There are so many pro-life centers available for help. The baby can be put up for adoption.
There are pregnancies where the fetus is growing in an ovary, fallopian tube or vagina that threatened to kill the mother and the fetus. Is it better to kill both, or abort the fetus and save the mother?

Should a woman be allowed a pill the morning after she is raped to terminate the error? It is not known at that time if she has conceived because most days a woman is not fertile.

I live a celibate lifestyle and am a senior citizen. I do not kill babies.
 
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Derf

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Likewise, if you oppose abortion but vote someone onto office who openly supports measures that are counter to Christ teachings on the poor, the widower, the elderly and the immigrants, have you followed Christ's commands? Does not James 2 apply in that situation also?
Is it opposing Jesus' commands to allow people to help widows and orphans in the way they see fit? Is it the role of government to give to the poor? Where did Jesus command such? Does James really say to force people to give to a specific government program?
You consider it stealing to use the weight of government to enforce the teachings of Christ concerning the poor, the elderly, the immigrants etc but have no qualm about the use of government (and indeed tax dollars) to enforce the Christian prohibition on abortion? That is cognitive dissonance.
That's because it is the government's responsibility to punish murderers. It's not the responsibility of government to feed everyone.
You are in no position to call anyone a hypocrite (none of us are).
We are if we first obey Jesus' commands. He taught his apostles how to judge righteously--by first removing the plank from their own eyes. He taught the hypocrites how to be genuine--by not neglecting the weightier matters of the law (like abortion, perhaps) while still doing the less weighty (like tithing so that the needy have what they need). In none of that did he say to forcefully take money from some through the government to give to the poor.
 
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Derf

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There are pregnancies where the fetus is growing in an ovary, fallopian tube or vagina that threatened to kill the mother and the fetus. Is it better to kill both, or abort the fetus and save the mother?

Should a woman be allowed a pill the morning after she is raped to terminate the error? It is not known at that time if she has conceived because most days a woman is not fertile.

I live a celibate lifestyle and am a senior citizen. I do not kill babies.
But it's ok to kill "errors"?
 
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Michael Collum

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Looking at history and all it's atrocities, people always wonder why the Christian masses simply "went along" (although there are numerous examples of the few who sacrificed themselves)? But most of these events took place in Gov'ts where the people didn't have much of a say such as Stalin, Pol Pot, Hitler, Mao...
But in America, we constantly have Christians who will vote for politicians who will make every effort to continue infanticide in our country because they value other issues as more important to them.
Not looking to argue...just trying to understand what the mindset is from those who feel this way? How do you justify this? Am I the one being too legalistic?
Thanks
Well, war murders babies, and US starts more wars than any country on the planet. So US lawmakers already kill enough babies without legalizing abortion.
 
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Canuckster

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But as you point out - killing babies is not something that the Bible forgot to condemn as we see in places like Lev 18:21
That scripture is not applicable because the mother is giving up a child she considers to be most precious. The abortion mother pays to get rid of a child she considers to be less than worthless.
 
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SavedByGrace3

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Exodus 21:22–23​

22 “If men fight, and hurt a woman with child, so that she gives birth prematurely, yet no harm follows, he shall surely be punished accordingly as the woman’s husband imposes on him; and he shall spay as the judges determine.
23 But if any harm follows, then you shall give life for life,

If the child in the women dies, you shall give life for life.
 
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dqhall

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But it's ok to kill "errors"?
There should be a national DNA database to help catch rapists who impregnate women against their will. Women should be allowed access to low cost birth control. Date rape should be prosecuted.
 
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Derf

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I don’t think we are reading the same post. I didn’t call anyone hypocrites or anything.
Didn't you post this:
They are, in short, the perfect people to love if you want to claim you love Jesus but actually dislike people who breathe.”
Isn't it an accusation of hypocrisy?
 
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Derf

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There should be a national DNA database to help catch rapists who impregnate women against their will. Women should be allowed access to low cost birth control. Date rape should be prosecuted.
I agree with everything you wrote, as long as "birth control" doesn't mean "kill the baby." The lowest cost birth control is to stop having sex before marriage.
 
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The Liturgist

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Under no circumstances would I vote for a lawmaker who promotes abortion; as to the two congregations I am responsible for, within them any such politician is regarded as excommunicate and anathema, and if any congregant sought to divide my flock by promoting such a politician among the members of the parish, I would excommunicate and anathematize them as well.

Indeed if a pro-abortion or pro-euthanasia lawmaker even appeared in our church, I would have to pause the liturgy to ask them if they had come to repent, and if not, have an usher call the police to have them trespassed.
 
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chevyontheriver

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Looking at history and all it's atrocities, people always wonder why the Christian masses simply "went along" (although there are numerous examples of the few who sacrificed themselves)? But most of these events took place in Gov'ts where the people didn't have much of a say such as Stalin, Pol Pot, Hitler, Mao...
But in America, we constantly have Christians who will vote for politicians who will make every effort to continue infanticide in our country because they value other issues as more important to them.
Not looking to argue...just trying to understand what the mindset is from those who feel this way? How do you justify this? Am I the one being too legalistic?
Thanks
No way will I vote for any politician that is a supporter of abortion. Just not gonna happen. I can pick one of the other candidates on the ballot or write somebody in, as I have done. An abortion supporter simply is not qualified to get my vote.
 
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chevyontheriver

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I don’t deny that saving unborn babies is giving justice to the poor. I believe abortion is sin and if we can, we should advocate for the unborn. My concern is that “ in the name of Unborn” , many Christians forget other teaching of Christ - “feed the hungry, give water to thirsty, give shelter to stranger, clothed the naked, look after the sick, visit those who are in prison. (Matt 25) , take care the widow ( Acts 6), give justice to the weak and fatherless ( Psalm 82) take care immigrants ( Deut 10:19 / Psalm 146).

I am thankful you are fighting for the unborn , but I chose to fight for other issue. As a Christian, God gave us different gifts and passion. You are fighting for unborn, I am fighting for the widow, someone else fighting for the orphan and someone preaching the Gospel. One is not more important then others.

1 Corinthians 12:12-27

One Body with Many Parts

12 The human body has many parts, but the many parts make up one whole body. So it is with the body of Christ. 13 Some of us are Jews, some are Gentiles,[a] some are slaves, and some are free. But we have all been baptized into one body by one Spirit, and we all share the same Spirit.



14 Yes, the body has many different parts, not just one part. 15 If the foot says, “I am not a part of the body because I am not a hand,” that does not make it any less a part of the body. 16 And if the ear says, “I am not part of the body because I am not an eye,” would that make it any less a part of the body? 17 If the whole body were an eye, how would you hear? Or if your whole body were an ear, how would you smell anything?



18 But our bodies have many parts, and God has put each part just where he wants it. 19 How strange a body would be if it had only one part! 20 Yes, there are many parts, but only one body. 21 The eye can never say to the hand, “I don’t need you.” The head can’t say to the feet, “I don’t need you.”



22 In fact, some parts of the body that seem weakest and least important are actually the most necessary. 23 And the parts we regard as less honorable are those we clothe with the greatest care. So we carefully protect those parts that should not be seen, 24 while the more honorable parts do not require this special care. So God has put the body together such that extra honor and care are given to those parts that have less dignity. 25 This makes for harmony among the members, so that all the members care for each other. 26 If one part suffers, all the parts suffer with it, and if one part is honored, all the parts are glad.




27 All of you together are Christ’s body, and each of you is a part of it
It’s never been either/or except in politics. We should not be choosing the baby killers, the war mongers, the selfish, the callous. It is a failure of moral imagination to pick one bad candidate to stop another bad candidate. Yet most of us gleefully do just that. And in the process we morally compromise ourselves and start to see real evils as good.
 
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GDL

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Does anyone but @BobRyan and a few disagreeing with his interpretation of a few Scriptures know how to make a Scriptural case for or against abortion? Or can they point to a comprehensive Biblical teaching on the matter that they agree with?

A decade or so I read and watched some teachings. I recall the typical theological battles on the subject, like most theological subjects, and I recall being most impressed with the work done by a Jewish Rabbi that went through Scripture and the historical rabbinical interpretations on abortion.
 
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GDL

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It’s never been either/or except in politics. We should not be choosing the baby killers, the war mongers, the selfish, the callous. It is a failure of moral imagination to pick one bad candidate to stop another bad candidate. Yet most of us gleefully do just that. And in the process we morally compromise ourselves and start to see real evils as good.
Don't vote?
 
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FenderTL5

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Does James really say to force people to give to a specific government program?
Giving or not is not what was being addressed there.
It was you who suggested that voting for someone who allows abortion is tantamount to committing murder, then added James 2 which says, “whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one [point], he is guilty of all.”
I was responding to your use of that verse.
If you are going to apply it that way, it must work both ways. You can vote for every pro-life candidate on the ballot – but if the same principle applies and they fail to follow even one command, they are also guilty of failing to keep the whole law. By the extension you applied, that makes you guilty as well.
That's the point of the verse, you/we don't get to pick and choose which commands to follow and which ones to ignore.

Is it the role of government to give to the poor?
The role of government is to provide for the general welfare of all of its citizens. That can mean addressing issues that impact society at large including the poor, elderly, widows, orphans etc. as well as crime and punishments.

In none of that did he (Jesus) say to forcefully take money from some through the government to give to the poor.
Jesus addressed taxation point blank. He did not call it theft. Calling taxes theft is a political mantra that has nothing to do with the teaching of Christ.

We are if we first obey Jesus' commands. He taught his apostles how to judge righteously--by first removing the plank from their own eyes. He taught the hypocrites how to be genuine--by not neglecting the weightier matters of the law (like abortion, perhaps)..

Let's pause right there for a moment.

I consider myself thoroughly pro-life, which for me includes the issues of abortion, capital punishment and euthanasia, but also overlaps into issues of poverty, health care, war, guns, immigration, and protection of minorities. I try to look at every issue through the lens of life being sacred, all of it.

Records concerning abortions in the USA have only been kept since the Roe decision in 1973.
Fact: the number of abortions in the USA peaked in the late 70s
Fact: the number of abortions in the USA have been in steady decline since peaking in the late 70s (with one exception, which I will mention momentarily)
Fact: the rate of decline has been faster under democratic leadership than under GOP leadership
Fact: the abortion rate in the USA has only increased under one administration since Jimmy Carter; that was the Trump administration.
Those are facts.

Now if you are really serious in trying to discern the weightier portion; why does GOP leadership not perform better in this area? If the policies are under performing, then what changes are in order?
What democratic policies have a direct affect on reducing the number of abortions in the USA?

It is my opinion that democratic leadership performs better because they address the front and center cause(s) of abortion such as healthcare and economics better than the GOP does. It is also my opinion that the goal of the current GOP policy on abortion is not to reduce/eliminate abortions, but to sweep them back under the rug as they were prior to Roe. That is opinion, ymmv

“When someone steals another’s clothes, we call them a thief.
Should we not give the same name to one who could clothe the naked and does not?
The bread in your cupboard belongs to the hungry; the coat unused in your closet belongs to the one who needs it; the shoes rotting in your closet belong to the one who has no shoes; the money which you hoard up belongs to the poor.”
-St. Basil the Great-

Lord have mercy on me the sinner.
 
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Tuur

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Looking at history and all it's atrocities, people always wonder why the Christian masses simply "went along" (although there are numerous examples of the few who sacrificed themselves)? But most of these events took place in Gov'ts where the people didn't have much of a say such as Stalin, Pol Pot, Hitler, Mao...
But in America, we constantly have Christians who will vote for politicians who will make every effort to continue infanticide in our country because they value other issues as more important to them.
Not looking to argue...just trying to understand what the mindset is from those who feel this way? How do you justify this? Am I the one being too legalistic?
Thanks
I cannot. It's an issue to me that cannot be compromised.
 
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