Would you ever vote for a lawmaker who supports murdering babies?

[Juan777]

Looking at history and all it's atrocities, people always wonder why the Christian masses simply "went along" (although there are numerous examples of the few who sacrificed themselves)? But most of these events took place in Gov'ts where the people didn't have much of a say such as Stalin, Pol Pot, Hitler, Mao...
But in America, we constantly have Christians who will vote for politicians who will make every effort to continue infanticide in our country because they value other issues as more important to them.
Not looking to argue...just trying to understand what the mindset is from those who feel this way? How do you justify this? Am I the one being too legalistic?
Thanks

You mean when the police murder babies from unarmed black women? Never. But police behave bad no matter who is elected. So Republicans are better.

 

[Derf]

In fact no class of humans is more "weak" than those not yet born ,, they cannot speak, they cannot hear, they are being killed by the millions (As you are pointing out).

So very good point my friend.

Well, they can hear at some point in their development. I remember that my son would jump in the womb at a sharp noise. And some babies remember songs sung to them only before they were born. But hearing someone talk about aborting you and not being able to do anything about it may be worse than not being able to hear at all.

 

[JacksBratt]

The intriguing thing here is that not a single person has yet made a case for abortion being murder at any stage at all!

Can I give it a shot?
Oh, first off, I think you asked about applying the gospel to abortion.. How about:

Matthew 7:12
New English Translation​

12 In everything, treat others as you would want them to treat you,[c] for this fulfills[d] the law and the prophets.​

Now onto your other question.

Murder:
noun
Law. the killing of another human being under conditions specifically covered in law. In the U.S., special statutory definitions include murder committed with malice aforethought, characterized by deliberation or premeditation or occurring during the commission of another serious crime, as robbery or arson (first-degree murder, or murder one ), and murder by intent but without deliberation or premeditation (second-degree murder, or murder two ).

OK, so it is the killing of another human being. Lets look at conception.

Two cells from two humans with human DNA.. The ovum and the sperm. Both are human. They carry human. DNA creating a fetus that, at any point in time... if tested, will show that it has human DNA.

So, it's human.. at all stages.

Is the Fetus living?

These two cells, the sperm and the ovum, are alive, they can die and will die if they do not meet.

Is the fetus alive... Well, fetus' die. They are growing. They are of separate DNA from the mother and father. They are their own entity. They are the result of two living cells from their parents and once these two cells connect, they begin to grow under the direction of the human DNA that it contains.

So, it's HUMAN and it's LIVING

Killing another human being is MURDER..

The definition states: "with malice aforethought, characterized by deliberation or premeditation"

Are abortions premeditated? Absolutely.

The definition states that it's only murder if committed "under conditions specifically covered in law." In other words.. Murder is:

the crime of unlawfully killing a person especially with malice aforethought

When is it not a crime to kill someone?

This article says the following: https://www.steinandmarkuslaw.com/when-homicide-is-considered-excusable-or-justified/

1/ Self defense
2/ Defense of others
3/ Protection of personal property
4/ War would also be an excusable act of killing not mentioned in the article.

1/ Are abortions self defense... probably in some cases the medical doctor will conclude that if the pregnancy continues the mother, and probably the fetus will die. So, sometimes.
2/ Are abortions considered the "Defense of others"... I think that that is a no. No third party person has died because a woman had a baby.
3/ Is personal property at any risk? No fetus is threatening your personal property. It's inside the mothers body.
4/ War... Not until it's drafted...

SO.. my conclusion... Abortion is premeditated murder.

 

[BobRyan]

Can I give it a shot?
Oh, first off, I think you asked about applying the gospel to abortion.. How about:

Matthew 7:12​

New English Translation​

12 In everything, treat others as you would want them to treat you,[c] for this fulfills[d] the law and the prophets.​

Now onto your other question.

Murder:
noun
Law. the killing of another human being under conditions specifically covered in law. In the U.S., special statutory definitions include murder committed with malice aforethought, characterized by deliberation or premeditation or occurring during the commission of another serious crime, as robbery or arson (first-degree murder, or murder one ), and murder by intent but without deliberation or premeditation (second-degree murder, or murder two ).

OK, so it is the killing of another human being. Lets look at conception.

Two cells from two humans with human DNA.. The ovum and the sperm. Both are human. They carry human. DNA creating a fetus that, at any point in time... if tested, will show that it has human DNA.

So, it's human.. at all stages.

Is the Fetus living?

These two cells, the sperm and the ovum, are alive, they can die and will die if they do not meet.

Is the fetus alive... Well, fetus' die. They are growing. They are of separate DNA from the mother and father. They are their own entity. They are the result of two living cells from their parents and once these two cells connect, they begin to grow under the direction of the human DNA that it contains.

So, it's HUMAN and it's LIVING

Killing another human being is MURDER..

The definition states: "with malice aforethought, characterized by deliberation or premeditation"

Are abortions premeditated? Absolutely.

The definition states that it's only murder if committed "under conditions specifically covered in law." In other words.. Murder is:

the crime of unlawfully killing a person especially with malice aforethought

When is it not a crime to kill someone?

This article says the following: https://www.steinandmarkuslaw.com/when-homicide-is-considered-excusable-or-justified/

1/ Self defense
2/ Defense of others
3/ Protection of personal property
4/ War would also be an excusable act of killing not mentioned in the article.

1/ Are abortions self defense... probably in some cases the medical doctor will conclude that if the pregnancy continues the mother, and probably the fetus will die. So, sometimes.
2/ Are abortions considered the "Defense of others"... I think that that is a no. No third party person has died because a woman had a baby.
3/ Is personal property at any risk? No fetus is threatening your personal property. It's inside the mothers body.
4/ War... Not until it's drafted...

SO.. my conclusion... Abortion is premeditated murder.

And there is Ex 20:13 -- do not kill
And there is Ex 21:22-23 penalty for killing the unborn is death since it says -- "life for life".
And there is Lev 18:21 - killing babies is one of the "Abominations" listed in Lev 18 for which God will judge even pagan nations - cutting their probationary time short.

 

[Lady Bug]

And there is Ex 20:13 -- do not kill
And there is Ex 21:22-23 penalty for killing the unborn is death since it says -- "life for life".
And there is Lev 18:21 - killing babies is one of the "Abominations" listed in Lev 18 for which God will judge even pagan nations - cutting their probationary time short.

I thought Christians said that the Old Testament Law was obsolete (if you don't count the 10 Commandments).

 

[Lady Bug]

View attachment 324181
I don't think GOD would agree

I'm against abortion too, don't get me wrong, but I always thought that this quote was about God having the IDEA of us before we were born. We didn't preexist before we were conceived. That's a Mormon thing.

 

[BobRyan]

I thought Christians said that the Old Testament Law was obsolete (if you don't count the 10 Commandments).

Good question.

Acts 17:11 "they studied the scriptures daily to see IF the things spoken to them by the Apostle Paul - were SO" ==> that is the OT (Old Testament) they were studying.

Luke 23:25-27 25 And then He said to them, “You foolish men and slow of heart to believe in all that the prophets have spoken! 26 Was it not necessary for the Christ to suffer these things and to come into His glory?” 27 Then beginning with Moses and with all the Prophets, He explained to them the things written about Himself in all the Scriptures . ==> that is the OT they were studying.

2 Tim 3:16 "ALL scripture is given by inspiration of God and is to be used for doctrine - " -- ==> they primarily used the OT since the "letters" of the NT were not yet complete and since those NT letters made constant reference to OT scripture as still being authoritative.

Heb 3:
7 Therefore, just as the Holy Spirit says,

“Today if you hear His voice,​

8 Do not harden your hearts as when they provoked Me,​

As on the day of trial in the wilderness,​

===> That is the NT quoting the OT and saying it is God the Holy Spirit speaking --


Mark 7:6-13 Jesus judges the tradition of the Jews by the standard of scripture - quoting the Old Testament.

 

[BobRyan]

I'm against abortion too, don't get me wrong, but I always thought that this quote was about God having the IDEA of us before we were born. We didn't preexist before we were conceived. That's a Mormon thing.

IT is true that we did not exist before being conceived - but God knows the future with 100% accuracy -- He can see the future better than we can see yesterday.

 

[Susie~Q]

Absolutely not, I would in no way vote for anyone who is for murdering babies.

 

[Diamond7]

I thought Christians said that the Old Testament Law was obsolete

We are to be righteous before God. This is a work of the grace of God in us.

 

[Lost Witness]

I'm against abortion too, don't get me wrong, but I always thought that this quote was about God having the IDEA of us before we were born. We didn't preexist before we were conceived. That's a Mormon thing.

Any scripture that tells of when GOD creates our individual souls?
We're souls with bodies, not a body with a soul.

 

[Derf]

Any scripture that tells of when GOD creates our individual souls?
We're souls with bodies, not a body with a soul.

Genesis 2:7 (KJV) And the LORD God formed man [of] the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

The body became a living soul. That's why some think they can justify abortion until birth, because the baby hasn't breathed air yet. But he is already living, being known by God as he is knit together in the womb.

 

[JacksBratt]

Genesis 2:7 (KJV) And the LORD God formed man [of] the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

The body became a living soul. That's why some think they can justify abortion until birth, because the baby hasn't breathed air yet. But he is already living, being known by God as he is knit together in the womb.

I haven't heard that specific reason for justification. However, I can see them going down that path.

I still think that it is hypocritical. They would probably jail you if you went to an eagle nest or sea turtle nest and removed all the eggs and killed them... But, a human embryo... is fair game

Same with "my body, my choice"... what happened to that when they were telling you to get the jab? Hypocrites.

Sooner or later people with this mindset will end up in a corner where two people in the same protest will have opposite things to protect..

Like............Women's rights groups who believe that men have it better... then... they are all for "trans" men and "trans" women who identify as something else... What do they do when a man, identifies as a woman and goes to a track meet and wins hands down.. or swimming, or weight lifting..

Kinda hard to stand for both of those views at the same time.

Sooner or later... they cannot stand for everything.. they get divided.

The only one sure thing to stand for is truth. Truth never contradicts.

 

[Derf]

I haven't heard that specific reason for justification. However, I can see them going down that path.

I still think that it is hypocritical. They would probably jail you if you went to an eagle nest or sea turtle nest and removed all the eggs and killed them... But, a human embryo... is fair game

Same with "my body, my choice"... what happened to that when they were telling you to get the jab? Hypocrites.

Sooner or later people with this mindset will end up in a corner where two people in the same protest will have opposite things to protect..

Like............Women's rights groups who believe that men have it better... then... they are all for "trans" men and "trans" women who identify as something else... What do they do when a man, identifies as a woman and goes to a track meet and wins hands down.. or swimming, or weight lifting..

Kinda hard to stand for both of those views at the same time.

Sooner or later... they cannot stand for everything.. they get divided.

The only one sure thing to stand for is truth. Truth never contradicts.

You might enjoy this:

Return of the Eagle Eggs | KGOV.com

kgov.com

 

[GodLovesCats]

Looking at history and all it's atrocities, people always wonder why the Christian masses simply "went along" (although there are numerous examples of the few who sacrificed themselves)? But most of these events took place in governments where the people didn't have much of a say such as Stalin, Pol Pot, Hitler, Mao...
But in America, we constantly have Christians who will vote for politicians who will make every effort to continue infanticide in our country because they value other issues as more important to them.
Not looking to argue...just trying to understand what the mindset is from those who feel this way? How do you justify this? Am I the one being too legalistic?
Thanks

This is what I hate about abortion opponents. Everyone knows abortion is NOT infanticide because the little one has not been born yet. Also, at the state level, abortion is NOT murder in America. I will keep making these two points as long as they are undeniable facts.

What Christians who truly care about America did was vote against people who paid women to have abortions, including girlfriends they never married, but refused to admit it and claimed to oppose abortion anyway. Christians in Georgia voted for a pastor five times.

I would never vote for a man like Donald Trump or a man like Herschel Walker. Joe Biden and Raphael Warnock are both very good people who would never commit adultery then pay the women they raped to have abortions or abandon their own children. Think about that.

This is not about voting for people who would support the deliberate killing of an embryo, which has no legal personhood status. It is about being a good man who cares about women and children and obeys the Ten Commandments.

 

[Lost Witness]

both very good people

Luke 18:19

The body became a living soul.

^^^^ Abortion's Murder, Period.

 

[Lost Witness]

This is what I hate about abortion opponents. Everyone knows abortion is NOT infanticide because the little one has not been born yet. Also, at the state level, abortion is NOT murder in America. I will keep making these two points as long as they are undeniable facts.

What Christians who truly care about America did was vote against people who paid women to have abortions, including girlfriends they never married, but refused to admit it and claimed to oppose abortion anyway. Christians in Georgia voted for a pastor five times.

I would never vote for a man like Donald Trump or a man like Herschel Walker. Joe Biden and Raphael Warnock are both very good people who would never commit adultery then pay the women they raped to have abortions or abandon their own children. Think about that.

This is not about voting for people who would support the deliberate killing of an embryo, which has no legal personhood status. It is about being a good man who cares about women and children and obeys the Ten Commandments.

See When i saw Derfs post,
I didn't see it as a valid reason to Justify abortion but a valid reason why abortion of even an embryo is murder because the SOUL exists before the body,
We're Not Bodies with a SOUL but a Soul with a Body.
that embryo has a SOUL, before a Heart.

 

[JacksBratt]

This is what I hate about abortion opponents. Everyone knows abortion is NOT infanticide because the little one has not been born yet. Also, at the state level, abortion is NOT murder in America. I will keep making these two points as long as they are undeniable facts.

What Christians who truly care about America did was vote against people who paid women to have abortions, including girlfriends they never married, but refused to admit it and claimed to oppose abortion anyway. Christians in Georgia voted for a pastor five times.

I would never vote for a man like Donald Trump or a man like Herschel Walker. Joe Biden and Raphael Warnock are both very good people who would never commit adultery then pay the women they raped to have abortions or abandon their own children. Think about that.

This is not about voting for people who would support the deliberate killing of an embryo, which has no legal personhood status. It is about being a good man who cares about women and children and obeys the Ten Commandments.

In your opinion, when does a fetus become a human? Infant? baby?

 

[GodLovesCats]

^^^^ Abortion's Murder, Period.

Only where it is illegal, which is NOT THE UNITED STATES.

You can hate abortion all you want. I am not saying it is good to abort embryos or we should abort them. But you know abortion is legal federally, you know it is NOT murder.

Is abortion immoral? Of course, unless the woman needs one to save her life. Is it a sin? Yes, according to the Bible. Is it illegal? No, according to the most important legal document in America: our Constitution.

 

[GodLovesCats]

In your opinion, when does a fetus become a human? Infant? Baby?

It is not my opinion, but an undeniable fact, that a human becomes an "infant" and a "baby" at the moment of birth - the same time it also becomes a person. God created all languages, including English, so to call all embryos and fetuses infants, babies, and people is opposing Him by telling outright lies if you know what they mean IMO. That is why I make a big deal about calling them what they are - zygotes, embryos, and fetuses - not to ignore the fact they are human beings God created starting at the moment of conception (or son after, in the case of identical twins). Does that make sense?

Keep in mind I am on the autism spectrum and one symptom is going crazy over words not being used properly. If everyone used the word homicide - defined as killing another human, period - I would be less inclined to get mad at people because that term is correct at all ages and stages of a person's life.

IME everyone who denies the above is just being blinded by what the Bible says here and there, deliberately ignoring the extremely obvious and repeatedly proven fact that America is a secular nation and always has been. Read Job 10, a perfect example of why abortion is not the worst thing that can happen every time a woman gets pregnant.