Would someone mind setting this fellow straight?

prodromos

Senior Veteran
Site Supporter
Nov 28, 2003
21,591
12,122
58
Sydney, Straya
✟1,181,092.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
Some of you guys are in a much better position to correct the misrepresentation of Orthodox belief in this post than I am. I can't just let it slide but I also have far too much on my plate at the moment.

We see histrory repeating itself in Christendom today with a part of the Eastern Church being out of communion with Rome (The non-Greek Orthodox churches are a later addition.) Apart on their own, in contravention of the Councils of Ephesus and Chalcedon, which received the Tome of Leo as a virtual declaration of St. Peter himself through the Pontiff, they've succumbed to the heretical belief that Jesus inherited the ancestral sin of Adam, meaning he was inclined to sin and had to overcome human pride and concupiscence which tarnishes our human nature, though he never committed any actual sins. This is why the EO regard the dogma of the Immaculate Conception to be heretical. It adds that Mary was preserved free from the effects of original sin. By their reasoning, therefore, the dogma elevates Mary above Jesus who is supposed to have been inclined to sin just like any other human being. Their rejection of the IC is the result of their own heresy.
 

ArmyMatt

Regular Member
Site Supporter
Jan 26, 2007
41,560
20,078
41
Earth
✟1,466,185.00
Country
United States
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
we do not believe Christ inherited ancestral sin, because one cannot inherit that. we believe that He assumed human nature

we therefore reject the idea that Christ had any inclination to sin (gnomic will), since His human will perfectly submitted to the Divine Will.

I would recommend he actually read an Orthodox book on the matter
 
Upvote 0

dzheremi

Coptic Orthodox non-Egyptian
Aug 27, 2014
13,565
13,723
✟429,802.00
Country
United States
Faith
Oriental Orthodox
Marital Status
Private
Um...the Tome of Leo was received at the Council of Ephesus as though from St. Peter himself? What? That would be news to those present at Ephesus in 431, over a decade before it was even written, and stupendously so to those at Ephesus II in 449, where it wasn't read. I'd ignore this if it weren't for this fact that this was kind of a huge deal subsequently, so it's almost shocking to find a Roman Catholic who doesn't know it (or it would be if the RCC actually taught its communicants the history of the councils as history, rather than as a narrative into which they insert Universal Jurisdiction and similar later ideas so as to appear to give them conciliar backing).
 
  • Like
Reactions: buzuxi02
Upvote 0

ArmyMatt

Regular Member
Site Supporter
Jan 26, 2007
41,560
20,078
41
Earth
✟1,466,185.00
Country
United States
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
Um...the Tome of Leo was received at the Council of Ephesus as though from St. Peter himself?

no, I think he meant Chalcedon, and the Fathers proclaimed that it was as if St Peter had spoken when they read it. of course, that was after the Fathers scrutinized it to make sure it was not Nestorian. Rome tends to leave that part out.

I honestly don't know what Ephesus has to do with his point.
 
Upvote 0

dzheremi

Coptic Orthodox non-Egyptian
Aug 27, 2014
13,565
13,723
✟429,802.00
Country
United States
Faith
Oriental Orthodox
Marital Status
Private
Er...sure, but he specifically wrote "Ephesus and Chalcedon", so I dunno. Clearly it only makes sense to say that about Chalcedon (and only then with the clarifications you presented), but the fact that he would lump Ephesus in there too makes me think that this is either a person who doesn't know even the basics of Christian history, or is otherwise ignoring it in favor of reaching as far back as he can to support a charge of heresy against the EO which does not stick upon a dispassionate or even just properly chronological reading of that same history.
 
  • Like
Reactions: buzuxi02
Upvote 0

justinangel

Newbie
Feb 19, 2011
1,301
197
Btwn heaven & earth
✟13,949.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Private
Politics
CA-Conservatives
we do not believe Christ inherited ancestral sin, because one cannot inherit that.

Catechism of the Eastern Orthodox Church, by Rev. Constance H. Demetry, D.D.

Q. Are we responsible for the original sin?

A. Personally none; because we did not personally commit the sin of our First
Parents; but we are charged with it by inheritance because we were in Adam
and Eve when they sinned, and for this reason the Apostle Paul writes:
"..all have sinned." ...Book of Romans, Chapter 5, Verse 12.

Q. Has anyone been exempted from the original sin?

A. Only Jesus Christ, because He was incarnate of the Holy Spirit, which,
being God, is without sin, and of the Virgin Mary after her cleansing of
original sin by the Holy Spirit when the Angel announced to her the
conception and birth of Christ.


Jesus did not inherit ancestral (the original) sin because He was incarnate of the Holy Spirit.

"... the sin of the first man, together with all of its consequences and penalties, is transferred by means of natural heredity to the entire human race. Since every human being is a descendant of the first man, 'no one of us is free from the spot of sin, even if he should manage to live a completely sinless day.' ... Original Sin not only constitutes 'an accident' of the soul; but its results, together with its penalties, are transplanted by natural heredity to the generations to come ... And thus, from the one historical event of the first sin of the first-born man, came the present situation of sin being imparted, together with all of the consequences thereof, to all natural descendants of Adam."

Archpriest Alexander Golubov: Rags of Mortality: Original Sin and Human Nature, quoting Greek theologian John Karmiris


we believe that He assumed human nature.
we therefore reject the idea that Christ had any inclination to sin (gnomic will), since His human will perfectly submitted to the Divine Will.

"Does Ancestral Sin hold up when measured against Jesus?

"Yes.
Jesus could remain sinless and yet have a sin nature described as Ancestral Sin. The Orthodox proclaim unequivocally that Jesus became like us in every way. No special exceptions are needed for Him–He was 100% human just like we are. He assumed every part of humanity as it is (post-fallen) in order to redeem it. This is the only answer you can give without making excuses for Christ’s exemption to some facet of our humanness. Jesus Christ, one person in two natures (everything it means to be human, Jesus became), 100% human and 100% God."

http://www.becomingorthodox.com/2012/12/was-jesus-christ-born-with-sin-nature.html

This is what a Russian Orthodox member of CF posted in our discussion on the Immaculate Conception of Mary, a thread that Prodromos is following.


"We hold that he [Christ] was tempted by both pride and concupiscence in His fallen human nature, and that in it He crushed both, and all manner of all other human sinfulness that arose in Him in the course of His Life... That He was exactly like us in every respect save sin... And that in His Life, He overcame all these inclinations to sin..."

We Catholics hold that Jesus had not even the inclination to sin. He wasn't tempted by pride and concupiscence, but by the Devil. "He who knew no sin became sin for us." "In him dwelled the fullness of Deity in bodily form," as St. Paul puts it.


I would recommend he actually read an Orthodox book on the matter
I recommend that you straighten the matter out among yourselves. :sigh:

:angel:
Justinius Angelus
 
Upvote 0

buzuxi02

Veteran
May 14, 2006
8,608
2,513
New York
✟212,454.00
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Single
Q. Has anyone been exempted from the original sin?

A. Only Jesus Christ, because He was incarnate of the Holy Spirit, which,
being God, is without sin, and of the Virgin Mary after her cleansing of
original sin by the Holy Spirit when the Angel announced to her the
conception and birth of Christ

So why are you quoting from an eastern catechism (one that also confirms byzantine catholic dogma which contradicts their latin counterparts) which proves the Immaculate Conception to be a heresy? Obviously, the heretical IC papal dogma claims she was spared of all stains of original sin at the very moment of conception. The above statement places any purification at the Annunciation and only AFTER her acceptance of Gabriel's message.
Now lets take a look what the council of Chalcedon actually said:

Extracts from the Acts.
Session II. (Continued).

And when these letters [i.e. Cyril’s letter to Nestorius Καταφλυαροῦσι and his letter to John of Antioch Εὐφραινέσθωσαν] had been read, the most reverend bishops cried out: We all so believe: Pope Leo thus believes: anathema to him who divides and to him who confounds: this is the faith of Archbishop Leo: Leo thus believes: Leo and Anatolius so believe: we all thus believe. As Cyril so believe we, all of us: eternal be the memory of Cyril: as the epistles of Cyril teach such is our mind, such has been our faith: such is our faith: this is the mind of Archbishop Leo, so he believes, so he has written.
Well so much for all your propaganda justinangel. This is 2016 we all have the original primary texts at our fingertips, no more forgeries, no more taking things out of context. St Cyril's epistles were the benchmark of Orthodoxy and correct belief. After the reading of Cyril's epistle's Pope Leo was allowed to read his tome because everyone agreed on the basics of Cyril's epistles. If Pope Leo did not agree with the contents of Cyril's epistle he would have not been allowed to proceed and would have been condemned. Now lets take a look what occured AFTER Pope Leo read his tome:

Extracts from the Acts.

Session II. (continued).
(Labbe and Cossart, Concilia, Tom. IV., col. 368.)
After the reading of the foregoing epistle, the most reverend bishops cried out: This is the faith of the fathers, this is the faith of the Apostles. So we all believe, thus the orthodox believe. Anathema to him who does not thus believe. Peter has spoken thus through Leo. So taught the Apostles. Piously and truly did Leo teach, so taught Cyril. Everlasting be the memory of Cyril. Leo and Cyril taught the same thing, anathema to him who does not so believe. This is the true faith. Those of us who are orthodox thus believe. This is the faith of the fathers. Why were not these things read at Ephesus [i.e. at the heretical synod held there]? These are the things Dioscorus hid away.
[Some explanations were asked by the Illyrian bishops and the answers were found satisfactory, but yet a delay of a few days was asked for, and some bishops petitioned for a general pardon of all who had been kept out. This proposition made great confusion, in the midst of which the session was dissolved by the judges.


Well there you have it. Once again the basis of the Tome's acceptance was that it agreed with what was already agreed upon by all, that is the Orthodox teachings of Cyril. Note how the Illyrian bishops had reservations of certain parts of Leo's Tome. The delay was caused because these Illyrian bishops who cried out "Let the Nestorians go to Rome" wanted more time to decipher the latin expressions and see whether Leo was teaching nestorianism.
Finally in session 4, the bishops made clear that Pope Leo's tome will hold the third place after the Nicene definition and after Cyril's doctrine at Ephesus. In fact it was not recieved till after all the bishops in attendance re-analyzed and voted whether Leo's doctrine conforms to the dogmas of the previous councils:

Extracts from the Acts.
Session IV.

...Paschasinus and Lucentius, the most reverend bishops, and Boniface the most reverend presbyter,
legates of the Apostolic See through that most reverend man, bishop Paschasinus said: As the holy and blessed and Ecumenical Synod holds fast and follows the rule of faith (fidei regulam in the Latin Acts) which was set forth by the fathers at Nice, it also confirms the faith set forth by the Synod of 150 fathers gathered at Constantinople at the bidding of the great Theodosius of blessed memory. Moreover the exposition of their faith, of the illustrious Cyril of blessed memory set forth at the Council of Ephesus (in which Nestorius was condemned) is received. And in the third place the writings of that blessed man, Leo, Archbishop of all the churches, who condemned the heresy of Nestorius and Eutyches, shew what the true faith is. Likewise the holy Synod holds this faith, this it follows...
...The most glorious judges and the great senate said: Since we see that the Holy Gospels have been placed alongside of your holiness, let each one of the bishops here assembled declare whether the epistle of most blessed archbishop Leo is in accordance with the exposition of the 318 fathers
assembled at Nice and with the decrees of the 150 fathers afterwards assembled in the royal city.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

ArmyMatt

Regular Member
Site Supporter
Jan 26, 2007
41,560
20,078
41
Earth
✟1,466,185.00
Country
United States
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
Catechism of the Eastern Orthodox Church, by Rev. Constance H. Demetry, D.D.

Q. Are we responsible for the original sin?

A. Personally none; because we did not personally commit the sin of our First
Parents; but we are charged with it by inheritance because we were in Adam
and Eve when they sinned, and for this reason the Apostle Paul writes:
"..all have sinned." ...Book of Romans, Chapter 5, Verse 12.

Q. Has anyone been exempted from the original sin?

A. Only Jesus Christ, because He was incarnate of the Holy Spirit, which,
being God, is without sin, and of the Virgin Mary after her cleansing of
original sin by the Holy Spirit when the Angel announced to her the
conception and birth of Christ.


Jesus did not inherit ancestral (the original) sin because He was incarnate of the Holy Spirit.

"... the sin of the first man, together with all of its consequences and penalties, is transferred by means of natural heredity to the entire human race. Since every human being is a descendant of the first man, 'no one of us is free from the spot of sin, even if he should manage to live a completely sinless day.' ... Original Sin not only constitutes 'an accident' of the soul; but its results, together with its penalties, are transplanted by natural heredity to the generations to come ... And thus, from the one historical event of the first sin of the first-born man, came the present situation of sin being imparted, together with all of the consequences thereof, to all natural descendants of Adam."

Archpriest Alexander Golubov: Rags of Mortality: Original Sin and Human Nature, quoting Greek theologian John Karmiris




"Does Ancestral Sin hold up when measured against Jesus?

"Yes.
Jesus could remain sinless and yet have a sin nature described as Ancestral Sin. The Orthodox proclaim unequivocally that Jesus became like us in every way. No special exceptions are needed for Him–He was 100% human just like we are. He assumed every part of humanity as it is (post-fallen) in order to redeem it. This is the only answer you can give without making excuses for Christ’s exemption to some facet of our humanness. Jesus Christ, one person in two natures (everything it means to be human, Jesus became), 100% human and 100% God."

http://www.becomingorthodox.com/2012/12/was-jesus-christ-born-with-sin-nature.html

This is what a Russian Orthodox member of CF posted in our discussion on the Immaculate Conception of Mary, a thread that Prodromos is following.


"We hold that he [Christ] was tempted by both pride and concupiscence in His fallen human nature, and that in it He crushed both, and all manner of all other human sinfulness that arose in Him in the course of His Life... That He was exactly like us in every respect save sin... And that in His Life, He overcame all these inclinations to sin..."

We Catholics hold that Jesus had not even the inclination to sin. He wasn't tempted by pride and concupiscence, but by the Devil. "He who knew no sin became sin for us." "In him dwelled the fullness of Deity in bodily form," as St. Paul puts it.



I recommend that you straighten the matter out among yourselves. :sigh:

:angel:
Justinius Angelus

I recommend you realize we define terms differently than you, and try to first understand what we mean when we say things.

It would also help if you quoted a saint or council, and not a poster who says Christ's temptation that runs into contrast of what the Fathers say.

Repeated straw man arguments and quoting what is not authoritative as authoritative just makes you look silly.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Lukaris

Orthodox Christian
Site Supporter
Aug 3, 2007
7,883
2,548
Pennsylvania, USA
✟754,677.00
Country
United States
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Single
they've succumbed to the heretical belief that Jesus inherited the ancestral sin of Adam, meaning he was inclined to sin and had to overcome human pride and concupiscence which tarnishes our human nature, though he never committed any actual sins. This is why the EO regard the dogma of the Immaculate Conception to be heretical. It adds that Mary was preserved free from the effects of original sin.

above excerpted from Podromos' quote of Justinangel.


What an erroneous view of Orthodoxy. We place a strong emphasis on the Incarnation of the Lord Jesus Christ as our savior who took on fallen human nature for our salvation. He lowered Himself into impurity to purify us in His love for us and suffering alongside us with no inclination to sin. His atonement for our sins involves the incarnation, crucifixion, resurrection, and the ascension.

We also place a strong emphasis on the Incarnation of the Lord to know who His Mother the blessed, ever Virgin Mary as the Theotokos (or bearer of God). While she did not sin, she inherited the same ancestral sin that all humans have (see Romans 5:12-14 ). How could anyone be immaculately conceived except Jesus Christ?
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Yeshua HaDerekh

Men dream of truth, find it then cant live with it
May 9, 2013
11,459
3,771
Eretz
✟317,562.00
Country
United States
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Private
Catechism of the Eastern Orthodox Church, by Rev. Constance H. Demetry, D.D.

Q. Are we responsible for the original sin?

A. Personally none; because we did not personally commit the sin of our First
Parents; but we are charged with it by inheritance because we were in Adam
and Eve when they sinned, and for this reason the Apostle Paul writes:
"..all have sinned." ...Book of Romans, Chapter 5, Verse 12.

Q. Has anyone been exempted from the original sin?

A. Only Jesus Christ, because He was incarnate of the Holy Spirit, which,
being God, is without sin, and of the Virgin Mary after her cleansing of
original sin by the Holy Spirit when the Angel announced to her the
conception and birth of Christ.


Jesus did not inherit ancestral (the original) sin because He was incarnate of the Holy Spirit.

"... the sin of the first man, together with all of its consequences and penalties, is transferred by means of natural heredity to the entire human race. Since every human being is a descendant of the first man, 'no one of us is free from the spot of sin, even if he should manage to live a completely sinless day.' ... Original Sin not only constitutes 'an accident' of the soul; but its results, together with its penalties, are transplanted by natural heredity to the generations to come ... And thus, from the one historical event of the first sin of the first-born man, came the present situation of sin being imparted, together with all of the consequences thereof, to all natural descendants of Adam."

Archpriest Alexander Golubov: Rags of Mortality: Original Sin and Human Nature, quoting Greek theologian John Karmiris




"Does Ancestral Sin hold up when measured against Jesus?

"Yes.
Jesus could remain sinless and yet have a sin nature described as Ancestral Sin. The Orthodox proclaim unequivocally that Jesus became like us in every way. No special exceptions are needed for Him–He was 100% human just like we are. He assumed every part of humanity as it is (post-fallen) in order to redeem it. This is the only answer you can give without making excuses for Christ’s exemption to some facet of our humanness. Jesus Christ, one person in two natures (everything it means to be human, Jesus became), 100% human and 100% God."

http://www.becomingorthodox.com/2012/12/was-jesus-christ-born-with-sin-nature.html

This is what a Russian Orthodox member of CF posted in our discussion on the Immaculate Conception of Mary, a thread that Prodromos is following.


"We hold that he [Christ] was tempted by both pride and concupiscence in His fallen human nature, and that in it He crushed both, and all manner of all other human sinfulness that arose in Him in the course of His Life... That He was exactly like us in every respect save sin... And that in His Life, He overcame all these inclinations to sin..."

We Catholics hold that Jesus had not even the inclination to sin. He wasn't tempted by pride and concupiscence, but by the Devil. "He who knew no sin became sin for us." "In him dwelled the fullness of Deity in bodily form," as St. Paul puts it.



I recommend that you straighten the matter out among yourselves. :sigh:

:angel:
Justinius Angelus

Who are you to tell us what our Theology is? This thread of Rome's theology of "original sin" has defiled many of its teachings because it is corrupt from its inception. It is a consequence of leaving Orthodoxy and The Church. One can not be guilty and inherit sin one has not done. What one CAN inherit is the CONSEQUENCES of sin. Because of Rome's corruption in this teaching you have immaculate conceptions and the like.
 
Upvote 0

ArmyMatt

Regular Member
Site Supporter
Jan 26, 2007
41,560
20,078
41
Earth
✟1,466,185.00
Country
United States
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
Who are you to tell us what our Theology is? This thread of Rome's theology of "original sin" has defiled many of its teachings because it is corrupt from its inception. It is a consequence of leaving Orthodoxy and The Church. One can not be guilty and inherit sin one has not done. What one CAN inherit is the CONSEQUENCES of sin. Because of Rome's corruption in this teaching you have immaculate conceptions and the like.

and I find it funny that the catechism he quoted was one written for Sunday school children.....
 
Upvote 0

ArmyMatt

Regular Member
Site Supporter
Jan 26, 2007
41,560
20,078
41
Earth
✟1,466,185.00
Country
United States
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
So, reading this, I'm wondering, is that work that Justin cited just wrong.... Or is something being lost in "theological" translation, so to speak (and if so, what)?

he is tying in the Western view of original guilt and our view of the ancestral sin. so when he is positing stuff about Christ having our nature fully as ours, he is not using our understanding of what the Incarnation did.

and our authority comes from the consensus, especially from the councils, which he did not quote. it would be if I tried to quote Nancy Pelosi (more extreme than he did, to be fair) as a Roman Catholic source.
 
Upvote 0