Would it be wrong to force a rule onto someone else?

[Dawnhammer]

ideology like anarchism. They think it's wrong to limit anyone's freedom, including the freedom to murder.

Anarchism hasn’t really anything to do with murdering someone.

Anarchism is a political philosophy that advocates self-governed societies based on voluntary institutions. These are often described as stateless societies,[1][2][3][4] although several authors have defined them more specifically as institutions based on non-hierarchical or free associations.[5][6][7][8] Anarchism holds the state to be undesirable, unnecessary, and harmful.[9][10]

Also I am sure anarchists have personal morality just like other people and most would probably agree that murdering people without reason would be wrong.

 

[~Anastasia~]

I think it is mental. Many bad psychologicol failures have snowballed. I have lost all confidence in my conscience. My conscience has failed me in the past, so how can I know what is right and wrong?

Perhaps then a medication or retraining in thought would help. I hope you will talk to someone and seek help.

Prayers!

 

[Jackson Cooper]

Anarchism hasn’t really anything to do with murdering someone.

Anarchism is a political philosophy that advocates self-governed societies based on voluntary institutions. These are often described as stateless societies,[1][2][3][4] although several authors have defined them more specifically as institutions based on non-hierarchical or free associations.[5][6][7][8] Anarchism holds the state to be undesirable, unnecessary, and harmful.[9][10]

Also I am sure anarchists have personal morality just like other people and most would probably agree that murdering people without reason would be wrong.

They didn't say murdering people wasn't wrong, they said it would be wrong to force someone to not murder if they chose to do so.

 

[Jackson Cooper]

No need to apologize.

It is something you are still troubled by?

It was probably wise to seek the input of others - Orthodox brothers and sisters, especially if you are Orthodox. And I think the easy thing to see is that so-called "Christian anarchy" is not in agreement with Christianity. So ongoing thoughts are not inspired by the Holy Spirit. (Nor does He make us feel as if our thoughts are a hound chasing us and snapping at our heels.)

In that case, the ongoing thoughts are either a product of wrong thinking from your own mind, or from the outside brought in by demons.

What I would do is this: Because a medical person is not likely to consider demonic origin (unless you are fortunate enough to have access to an Orthodox psychologist) ... I would speak first to your priest. He would be in the best position to deal with the possibility of demonic thought. Very likely he would want you to talk to person who can check how likely this may be something from your own mind. It may be a team effort to find the source(s) ... and once they are found, they can begin working to deal with it.


I know both causes are possible. Such ongoing thoughts are not normal, healthy thinking, so whatever is causing you to obsess in this way, I hope you can get help so that you can become freed from it. Prayers for you.

God be with you.

I am still doubtful as to whether or not the anarchists are wrong. Before converting to Eastern Orthodoxy, I was exploring 7th Day Adventism and various other churches. I am confident Eastern Orthodoxy is the original church. What particular Eastern Orthodox positions contradict those of anarchists?

 

[~Anastasia~]

I am still doubtful as to whether or not the anarchists are wrong. Before converting to Eastern Orthodoxy, I was exploring 7th Day Adventism and various other churches. I am confident Eastern Orthodoxy is the original church. What particular Eastern Orthodox positions contradict those of anarchists?

an·ar·chy
ˈanərkē/
noun

1. a state of disorder due to absence or nonrecognition of authority.
   "he must ensure public order in a country threatened with anarchy"
   synonyms: lawlessness, nihilism, mobocracy, revolution, insurrection, disorder, chaos, mayhem, tumult, turmoil
   "conditions are dangerously ripe for anarchy"
   • absence of government and absolute freedom of the individual, regarded as a political ideal.

It is a rejection of hierarchical authority and a rejection of order. It thoroughly contradicts Christianity because God is a God of order, and from the very beginning He established order, hierarchy, rule, when He established mankind as ruler over Creation in the Garden.

It is Satan that defies being ruled, and order.

Anarchists believe each person should be a law unto themselves. This denies that there is any truth, any objective morality, and is completely in opposition to what Christ taught.

And on a smaller scale, Christ told us to render under Ceaser what is Ceaser's (pay your taxes), and Scripture tells us to submit ourselves to the authority that rules over us, except in a case where they order us to directly disobey God. Then we obey God. That instruction in itself is a kind of hierarchical order of authority.

 

[ArmyMatt]

I am still doubtful as to whether or not the anarchists are wrong. Before converting to Eastern Orthodoxy, I was exploring 7th Day Adventism and various other churches. I am confident Eastern Orthodoxy is the original church. What particular Eastern Orthodox positions contradict those of anarchists?

the Scripture says that even the pagan kings are there by God's will

 

[Jackson Cooper]

an·ar·chy
ˈanərkē/
noun

1. a state of disorder due to absence or nonrecognition of authority.
   "he must ensure public order in a country threatened with anarchy"
   synonyms: lawlessness, nihilism, mobocracy, revolution, insurrection, disorder, chaos, mayhem, tumult, turmoil
   "conditions are dangerously ripe for anarchy"
   • absence of government and absolute freedom of the individual, regarded as a political ideal.

It is a rejection of hierarchical authority and a rejection of order. It thoroughly contradicts Christianity because God is a God of order, and from the very beginning He established order, hierarchy, rule, when He established mankind as ruler over Creation in the Garden.

It is Satan that defies being ruled, and order.

Anarchists believe each person should be a law unto themselves. This denies that there is any truth, any objective morality, and is completely in opposition to what Christ taught.

And on a smaller scale, Christ told us to render under Ceaser what is Ceaser's (pay your taxes), and Scripture tells us to submit ourselves to the authority that rules over us, except in a case where they order us to directly disobey God. Then we obey God. That instruction in itself is a kind of hierarchical order of authority.

I noticed the third definition according to Webster is "a utopian society of individuals who enjoy complete freedom without government".
So they want a utopia, just like communists. Interesting. Sounds like both groups want Heaven on Earth.

 

[archer75]

Some of these claims are quite inaccurate. Anarchist thought does not say that each person should be a law unto himself. Anarchist thought is about voluntary organization into groups and reduction of coercion. Anarchists don't promote a "chaotic" society or "complete freedom" (i.e. - do whatever you want). This just isn't so. You might find a kid wih an "anarchy" symbol on his shirt who would explain it that way, but he would be misinformed.

Certainly, the noun 'anarchy' can refer to a conditon or lawlessness, as @~Anastasia~ cites above. But anarchism is not a belief that such a condition is great. Rather,

Anarchism is a political theory, which is skeptical of the justification of authority and power, especially political power. Anarchism is usually grounded in moral claims about the importance of individual liberty. Anarchists also offer a positive theory of human flourishing, based upon an ideal of non-coercive consensus building. (from Anarchism (Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy))

Please note: in this post I'm not promoting anarchism, claiming to be an anarchist thinker, promoting Christian Anarchism or any such thing. All I'm doing is saying that some of the understandings represented on this thread are based on a misapprehension of what an "anarchist" is.

@Dawnhammer basically said this above, but then the conversation continued on a different track.

 

[Jackson Cooper]

Some of these claims are quite inaccurate. Anarchist thought does not say that each person should be a law unto himself. Anarchist thought is about voluntary organization into groups and reduction of coercion. Anarchists don't promote a "chaotic" society or "complete freedom" (i.e. - do whatever you want). This just isn't so. You might find a kid wih an "anarchy" symbol on his shirt who would explain it that way, but he would be misinformed.

Certainly, the noun 'anarchy' can refer to a conditon or lawlessness, as @~Anastasia~ cites above. But anarchism is not a belief that such a condition is great. Rather,

Anarchism is a political theory, which is skeptical of the justification of authority and power, especially political power. Anarchism is usually grounded in moral claims about the importance of individual liberty. Anarchists also offer a positive theory of human flourishing, based upon an ideal of non-coercive consensus building. (from Anarchism (Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy))

Please note: in this post I'm not promoting anarchism, claiming to be an anarchist thinker, promoting Christian Anarchism or any such thing. All I'm doing is saying that some of the understandings represented on this thread are based on a misapprehension of what an "anarchist" is.

@Dawnhammer basically said this above, but then the conversation continued on a different track.

Did you ignore my response to dawnstar? Arresting Jeffrey Dahmer = ruling over him. You just said that according to anarchism, it is immoral to have authority over someone. You just reinforced what has been said in this thread. Anarchism is chaos unless humans all of a sudden humans stop sinning. Anarchism is lawlessness. What is your misunderstang?

 

[Jackson Cooper]

the Scripture says that even the pagan kings are there by God's will

I greatly suspect that they don't believe Paul's writings are canon. Then again, Jesus also submitted to the Romans.

 

[ArmyMatt]

I greatly suspect that they don't believe Paul's writings are canon. Then again, Jesus also submitted to the Romans.

history is not on their side though

 

[~Anastasia~]

Some of these claims are quite inaccurate. Anarchist thought does not say that each person should be a law unto himself. Anarchist thought is about voluntary organization into groups and reduction of coercion. Anarchists don't promote a "chaotic" society or "complete freedom" (i.e. - do whatever you want). This just isn't so. You might find a kid wih an "anarchy" symbol on his shirt who would explain it that way, but he would be misinformed.

Certainly, the noun 'anarchy' can refer to a conditon or lawlessness, as @~Anastasia~ cites above. But anarchism is not a belief that such a condition is great. Rather,

Anarchism is a political theory, which is skeptical of the justification of authority and power, especially political power. Anarchism is usually grounded in moral claims about the importance of individual liberty. Anarchists also offer a positive theory of human flourishing, based upon an ideal of non-coercive consensus building. (from Anarchism (Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy))

Please note: in this post I'm not promoting anarchism, claiming to be an anarchist thinker, promoting Christian Anarchism or any such thing. All I'm doing is saying that some of the understandings represented on this thread are based on a misapprehension of what an "anarchist" is.

@Dawnhammer basically said this above, but then the conversation continued on a different track.

Thank you for pointing out if I was incomplete or in error ... I will happily defer on that point.

But for the sake of the questions the OP is wrestling with, I don't believe I'll pursue it directly, though it could be interesting in a different context.

 

[archer75]

Did you ignore my response to dawnstar? Arresting Jeffrey Dahmer = ruling over him. You just said that according to anarchism, it is immoral to have authority over someone. You just reinforced what has been said in this thread. Anarchism is chaos unless humans all of a sudden humans stop sinning. Anarchism is lawlessness. What is your misunderstang?

I did not ignore your response, but had not seen it because of my carelessness. I apologize for appearing to ignore it.

I did not say that "according to anarchism, it is immoral to have authority over someone." What I did say is plainly visible in my post. It seems you have been exposed to some confusing materials written by people who would be considered to be crazy or joking by any serious anarchist or any person who actually knows what anarchism is. In this case, the misunderstanding stems from those materials. No anarchist I have ever read would say that it is "fine" for a serial murderer to go on doing what they are doing. The simple reasoning is that the victims have a right not to have their lives ended for some crazy reason, and that restraining the murderer is necessary to protect those people. If you want to see it this way - the murderer is grossly violating the victim's rights to be alive. In other words, a pretty common attitude towards murder, though maybe with slightly different vocabulary.

"Anarchism" is not chaos and it is not exactly lawlessness, and "anarchism" is not a synonym for any of the senses of the word "anarchy."

If you wish to learn more about anarchism, I suggest you turn to Wikipedia or a good encyclopedia or a primer on anarchist thought that you can get at or through your local library. It is not a good idea to rely on materials like the ones you've been exposed to.

None of this means, again, that I am promoting this school of thought. There is just a misunderstanding on this thread about what that school of thought (which is, of course, varied) even is. That is why I spoke up and that is all I have to say.

I agree with @~Anastasia~ that this might be an interesting topic - but I have a feeling it would needs a new thread and not on TAW. I would happily check out that thread if someone starts it.

@Jackson Cooper, I am sorry if my carelessness or lack of skill made my post seem like an attack on you or anyone on this thread. May God bless your search for truth.

 

[Jackson Cooper]

an·ar·chy
ˈanərkē/
noun

1. a state of disorder due to absence or nonrecognition of authority.
   "he must ensure public order in a country threatened with anarchy"
   synonyms: lawlessness, nihilism, mobocracy, revolution, insurrection, disorder, chaos, mayhem, tumult, turmoil
   "conditions are dangerously ripe for anarchy"
   • absence of government and absolute freedom of the individual, regarded as a political ideal.

It is a rejection of hierarchical authority and a rejection of order. It thoroughly contradicts Christianity because God is a God of order, and from the very beginning He established order, hierarchy, rule, when He established mankind as ruler over Creation in the Garden.

It is Satan that defies being ruled, and order.

Anarchists believe each person should be a law unto themselves. This denies that there is any truth, any objective morality, and is completely in opposition to what Christ taught.

And on a smaller scale, Christ told us to render under Ceaser what is Ceaser's (pay your taxes), and Scripture tells us to submit ourselves to the authority that rules over us, except in a case where they order us to directly disobey God. Then we obey God. That instruction in itself is a kind of hierarchical order of authority.

I believe my problem is that I suspect myself of being in the wrong long before I suspect others. I have a hard time condemning others.

 

[~Anastasia~]

I believe my problem is that I suspect myself of being in the wrong long before I suspect others. I have a hard time condemning others.

We are not supposed to condemn others, so you are doing right there. We condemn ourselves so that we can repent so that we don't need to condemn ourselves before God.

We do have a responsibility to evaluate teachings before we submit to them though. If you are having difficulty with that, it might be better to stay with what you know is safe instead of venturing far afield. A good foundation is necessary in order to develop discernment.

 

[Jackson Cooper]

I did not ignore your response, but had not seen it because of my carelessness. I apologize for appearing to ignore it.

I did not say that "according to anarchism, it is immoral to have authority over someone." What I did say is plainly visible in my post. It seems you have been exposed to some confusing materials written by people who would be considered to be crazy or joking by any serious anarchist or any person who actually knows what anarchism is. In this case, the misunderstanding stems from those materials. No anarchist I have ever read would say that it is "fine" for a serial murderer to go on doing what they are doing. The simple reasoning is that the victims have a right not to have their lives ended for some crazy reason, and that restraining the murderer is necessary to protect those people. If you want to see it this way - the murderer is grossly violating the victim's rights to be alive. In other words, a pretty common attitude towards murder, though maybe with slightly different vocabulary.

"Anarchism" is not chaos and it is not exactly lawlessness, and "anarchism" is not a synonym for any of the senses of the word "anarchy."

If you wish to learn more about anarchism, I suggest you turn to Wikipedia or a good encyclopedia or a primer on anarchist thought that you can get at or through your local library. It is not a good idea to rely on materials like the ones you've been exposed to.

None of this means, again, that I am promoting this school of thought. There is just a misunderstanding on this thread about what that school of thought (which is, of course, varied) even is. That is why I spoke up and that is all I have to say.

I agree with @~Anastasia~ that this might be an interesting topic - but I have a feeling it would needs a new thread and not on TAW. I would happily check out that thread if someone starts it.

@Jackson Cooper, I am sorry if my carelessness or lack of skill made my post seem like an attack on you or anyone on this thread. May God bless your search for truth.

So you think the majority of US voters in the past election are crazy? Or is someone only crazy for killing an adult? The majority of self-proclaimed 'anarchists' do not want infanticide to be criminalized.
Arresting someone = having authority over them.

 

[Jackson Cooper]

an·ar·chy
ˈanərkē/
noun

1. a state of disorder due to absence or nonrecognition of authority.
   "he must ensure public order in a country threatened with anarchy"
   synonyms: lawlessness, nihilism, mobocracy, revolution, insurrection, disorder, chaos, mayhem, tumult, turmoil
   "conditions are dangerously ripe for anarchy"
   • absence of government and absolute freedom of the individual, regarded as a political ideal.

It is a rejection of hierarchical authority and a rejection of order. It thoroughly contradicts Christianity because God is a God of order, and from the very beginning He established order, hierarchy, rule, when He established mankind as ruler over Creation in the Garden.

It is Satan that defies being ruled, and order.

Anarchists believe each person should be a law unto themselves. This denies that there is any truth, any objective morality, and is completely in opposition to what Christ taught.

And on a smaller scale, Christ told us to render under Ceaser what is Ceaser's (pay your taxes), and Scripture tells us to submit ourselves to the authority that rules over us, except in a case where they order us to directly disobey God. Then we obey God. That instruction in itself is a kind of hierarchical order of authority.

Still not totally convinced, but I am hardly convinced of anything nowadays. I had that beaten out of me years ago.

 

[~Anastasia~]

Still not totally convinced, but I am hardly convinced of anything nowadays. I had that beaten out of me years ago.

As pointed out, my definitions may have been in error or lacking. I don't really like to talk about social or political systems since that is not my area of knowledge. I wouldn't want to try to convince you of any of the particulars.

What I do know is that God Himself forbids murder, so the making of a rule forbidding it is not anti-Christian or sinful. Simply ... thou shalt not murder is God's law, and we are always right to stand with Him.




Lord have mercy on you for whatever you have suffered.

 

[Jackson Cooper]

As pointed out, my definitions may have been in error or lacking. I don't really like to talk about social or political systems since that is not my area of knowledge. I wouldn't want to try to convince you of any of the particulars.

What I do know is that God Himself forbids murder, so the making of a rule forbidding it is not anti-Christian or sinful. Simply ... thou shalt not murder is God's law, and we are always right to stand with Him.




Lord have mercy on you for whatever you have suffered.

God forbid a lot of things, and stoning was the punishment for many things. Yet, we aren't supposed to do that anymore supposedly.
I never really understood the transition from Old Testament Law to the New Covenant.

 

[~Anastasia~]

God forbid a lot of things, and stoning was the punishment for many things. Yet, we aren't supposed to do that anymore supposedly.
I never really understood the transition from Old Testament Law to the New Covenant.

It's probably a good idea to ask your priest about questions you might have. He can get at the questions behind the questions and explain so you will maybe be able to understand and figure out yourself.

But as a basic note - we look to Christ, Who is God revealed to us. What did He do with the woman caught in adultery? He did not stone her, but sent her on her way with an admonition to sin no more. That is the heart of God, that we be set free, saved, and no longer a slave to sin.