Would God do this?

[Celticroots]

I've been reading about Calvinism vs. Arminism although I am not full with either side. I've accepted Christ as my Savior and strive to build my relationship with Him.

According to Calvinism God predestines who is saved. God does the drawing because no one can come to Him so if you accept Christ it is because He drew you.

Can someone who genuinely desire to be saved be damned if God decides it? Or is that impossible?

 

[RaymondG]

I've been reading about Calvinism vs. Arminism although I am not full with either side. I've accepted Christ as my Savior and strive to build my relationship with Him.

According to Calvinism God predestines who is saved. God does the drawing because no one can come to Him so if you accept Christ it is because He drew you.

Can someone who genuinely desire to be saved be damned if God decides it? Or is that impossible?

according to the Calvinist argument, I believe, the strong desire to be saved comes from God to the called. Therefore it would not be possible for that person with the strong desire to be lost.......this very desire is the drawing of God. The one who is lost would not have this desire at all.

 

[JCFantasy23]

Can someone who genuinely desire to be saved be damned if God decides it? Or is that impossible?

God can do anything. I will point out though if a person is desiring to be saved and wants a relationship with God, then I think that person is called and doesn't have anything to worry about as long as they don't reject the call.

 

[Grandpa2390]

I've been reading about Calvinism vs. Arminism although I am not full with either side. I've accepted Christ as my Savior and strive to build my relationship with Him.

According to Calvinism God predestines who is saved. God does the drawing because no one can come to Him so if you accept Christ it is because He drew you.

Can someone who genuinely desire to be saved be damned if God decides it? Or is that impossible?

I'm sure someone will respond better than I but:
a person cannot desire to be saved on his own. The only reason we desire to be saved is because God chose us.

we unregenerate human beings naturally have no desire for God and his holiness. God has to extend his grace and put that desire into us.

 

[JCFantasy23]

I'm sure someone will respond better than I but:
a person cannot desire to be saved on his own. The only reason we desire to be saved is because God chose us.

we unregenerate human beings naturally have no desire for God and his holiness. God has to extend his grace and put that desire into us.

You put it better than I did already

 

[Celticroots]

That was what I thought. Thanks guys

 

[JoeP222w]

Can someone who genuinely desire to be saved be damned if God decides it? Or is that impossible?

No one genuinely desires to be saved unless God first does a work of regeneration in their heart. And who God regenerates, He saves. God does not fail in whom He saves.

John 6:44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.


Romans 3:10-12 as it is written: "None is righteous, no, not one; (11) no one understands; no one seeks for God. (12) All have turned aside; together they have become worthless; no one does good, not even one."


Romans 8:29-30 For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. (30) And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.

 

[Grandpa2390]

You put it better than I did already

you pointed what i didn't.

that if you truly desire a relationship with god then dont stress over whether you are elect

and dont assume that anyone who is elect is already serving God from birth. New Testament and onwards, an elect person can come to God at any point so outreach is necessary. just don't take it personally if someone rejects the message. as if there was something YOU could have done better to convince (assuming you tried). As if there is some skill or technique you must learn and exercise to convince people. just be who Jesus desires you to be. and reach out the best you can. if people reject you, it is not your fault.

 

[MaudDib]

I'm sure someone will respond better than I but:
a person cannot desire to be saved on his own. The only reason we desire to be saved is because God chose us.

we unregenerate human beings naturally have no desire for God and his holiness. God has to extend his grace and put that desire into us.

You sound like a Calvinist, who assumes we have no free will. God draws us, and woos us, and knocks, and at that point WE choose freely whether to accept or reject.

 

[MaudDib]

I've been reading about Calvinism vs. Arminism although I am not full with either side. I've accepted Christ as my Savior and strive to build my relationship with Him.

According to Calvinism God predestines who is saved. God does the drawing because no one can come to Him so if you accept Christ it is because He drew you.

Can someone who genuinely desire to be saved be damned if God decides it? Or is that impossible?

If you are in between the Calvinist and the Armenian, it is because you are in the middle, where Molinism lies. Molinism is the only systematic theology that can reconcile Gods Divine Sovereignty with creaturely free will. Check William Lane Craig on Molinism, or check out God's Middle Knowledge.

 

[MaudDib]

according to the Calvinist argument, I believe, the strong desire to be saved comes from God to the called. Therefore it would not be possible for that person with the strong desire to be lost.......this very desire is the drawing of God. The one who is lost would not have this desire at all.

Yes that is the claim of Irresistable Grace, but that is nonsense. Judas preached and healed in Jesus name yet apostatised. And the bible too is full of warnings against apostasy. How would that reconcile with that aspect of Calvinism? It simply doesn't.

 

[RaymondG]

Yes that is the claim of Irresistable Grace, but that is nonsense. Judas preached and healed in Jesus name yet apostatised. And the bible too is full of warnings against apostasy. How would that reconcile with that aspect of Calvinism? It simply doesn't.

Judas would not of had the holy spirit at that time. I believe that there is good reason to believe that once being born from above.....one cannot go back into the spiritual womb....

 

[MaudDib]

No one genuinely desires to be saved unless God first does a work of regeneration in their heart. And who God regenerates, He saves. God does not fail in whom He saves.

John 6:44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.


Romans 3:10-12 as it is written: "None is righteous, no, not one; (11) no one understands; no one seeks for God. (12) All have turned aside; together they have become worthless; no one does good, not even one."


Romans 8:29-30 For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. (30) And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.

This all affirms Gods Sovereignty, but there is no mention of mans free will in all this?
It is at the point of drawing that we freely choose to accept or reject God.

'Do you believe that God created man and arbitrarily, sovereignly—it is the same thing—created that man, with no other intention, than that of damning him? Made him, and yet, for no other reason than that of destroying him for ever? Well, if you can believe it, I pity you, that is all I can say: you deserve pity, that you should think so meanly of God, whose mercy endureth for ever.' - CH Spurgeon

 

[MaudDib]

Judas would not of had the holy spirit at that time. I believe that there is good reason to believe that once being born from above.....one cannot go back into the spiritual womb....

Jesus called out to Judas, and Judas answered. And then preached and healed in His name. And then apostatised. You cannot merely state that he didn't have the Holy Spirit in the face of the aforementioned facts.

And how do you explain away all the warnings about apostatising?

You see, if it was Irresistible Grace, then you wouldn't need warnings... but there are warnings...Plenty! so grace cannot be irresistible. And apostasy is real. Unless you think God's warnings against apostasy were not real somehow.

logic.

 

[MaudDib]

you pointed what i didn't.

that if you truly desire a relationship with god then dont stress over whether you are elect

and dont assume that anyone who is elect is already serving God from birth. New Testament and onwards, an elect person can come to God at any point so outreach is necessary. just don't take it personally if someone rejects the message. as if there was something YOU could have done better to convince (assuming you tried). As if there is some skill or technique you must learn and exercise to convince people. just be who Jesus desires you to be. and reach out the best you can. if people reject you, it is not your fault.

Whoa. Your 'election' is determined by whether you freely choose to accept Christ as your saviour at the point of being drawn by the Holy Spirit... Of course God saw it coming in advance, but He doesn't arbitrarily choose people to be saved and leave the rest to be damned...

Imagine if that were true, that he chose one your kids to be saved and not the other. That would mean you love your kid more than God does.

'Do you believe that God created man and arbitrarily, sovereignly—it is the same thing—created that man, with no other intention, than that of damning him? Made him, and yet, for no other reason than that of destroying him for ever? Well, if you can believe it, I pity you, that is all I can say: you deserve pity, that you should think so meanly of God, whose mercy endureth for ever.' - CH Spurgeon.

 

[RaymondG]

Jesus called out to Judas, and Judas answered. And then preached and healed in His name. And then apostatised. You cannot merely state that he didn't have the Holy Spirit in the face of the aforementioned facts.

And how do you explain away all the warnings about apostatising?

You see, if it was Irresistible Grace, then you wouldn't need warnings... but there are warnings...Plenty! so grace cannot be irresistible. And apostasy is real. Unless you think God's warnings against apostasy were not real somehow.

logic.

There were also people casting out devils in His name who weren't disciples.....the disciple forbad them, but Jesus told them to forbid them not......

He that endureth to the end....the same shall be saved......not he that the starts the path, or makes it half way.

I'm referring to the ones are endure to the end, as the ones who are born from above.... But it is easy to assume that because you are used to heal or work miracles, you are saved.....But this is only the beginning of the end.....

I dont subscribe to any particular denominational belief....I subscribe to truth......so there is no need in discussing which ones are right and wrong with me....as i have no support or condemnation for any of them....

 

[JoeP222w]

It is at the point of drawing that we freely choose to accept or reject God.

Man's free will comes under the sovereignty of God's autonomous free will. If one has been drawn by God, he or she will never reject God, so there is not a choice in this sense.

 

[MaudDib]

Man's free will comes under the sovereignty of God's autonomous free will. If one has been drawn by God, he or she will never reject God, so there is not a choice in this sense.

Sorry we obviously reading two different bibles.

I have a King James bible in my possession. In it, God clearly warns multiple times against apostasy. See here for 37 verses on it.
Also in my bible, Judas was called by Jesus, and responded. Judas even preached and healed in Jesus name, and then apostatised.

If you were in fact reading the same bible as what I am, then you would either have to concede that those warnings against apostasy were superfluous and the God is not being genuine in giving them, or you would have to concede that Salvation is not by faith alone, but also contingent on threats keeping you in line.

Also, you are conflating human freedom with Gods grace.
Molinism is a much more coherent model, maybe check it out.

 

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

according to the Calvinist argument, I believe, the strong desire to be saved comes from God to the called. Therefore it would not be possible for that person with the strong desire to be lost.......this very desire is the drawing of God. The one who is lost would not have this desire at all.

Not necessarily. Calvin and by extension some Calvinists, believe in a concept called Evanescent Grace, wherein the reprobate displays signs of receiving grace but that grace is false and not truly saving the person in question. So you might feel good, might feel like you have a saving faith, but in reality you don't.

 

[JoeP222w]

In it, God clearly warns multiple times against apostasy. See here for 37 verses on it.

Those who eternally abandon the truth of God were not the elect of God. They were false converts. They were never born again, never regenerate, never repented of their sin, never trusted in Jesus Christ.

Also in my bible, Judas was called by Jesus, and responded. Judas even preached and healed in Jesus name, and then apostatised.

Verse(s) reference?

If you were in fact reading the same bible as what I am, then you would either have to concede that those warnings against apostasy were superfluous and the God is not being genuine in giving them, or you would have to concede that Salvation is not by faith alone, but also contingent on threats keeping you in line.

Neither of those. It is a call to examine yourself regularly to see that you are in the faith, as Paul taught, and by no means is this addition to salvation by faith alone.

Also, you are conflating human freedom with Gods grace.

How so?

Molinism is a much more coherent model, maybe check it out.

Molinism is absolute nonsense and teaches the lie that God learns new things. It also promotes that there is someone greater than God, that God must work with the cards he is dealt with, and that is an absolute false teaching. God is sovereign and decrees all things. God does not learn new things because He is perfect, including His omniscience. Molinism was also developed in response to the Reformation by a false teacher.