Would DACA amnesty render border wall useless?

[Junker P Hoodwink]

DACA Amnesty Would Render Border Wall Useless, Cost Americans $26B

"A deal in which President Trump accepts an amnesty for millions of illegal aliens enrolled and eligible for President Obama’s Deferred Action for Childhood Arrivals (DACA) program in exchange for minor border wall funding would be counterproductive to the 'America First' goals of the administration, depressing U.S. wages in the process ahead of the 2020 election.'

{snip}

"Since then, a coalition of establishment Republicans and Democrats have sought to ram an amnesty for up to 3.5 million DACA-enrolled and eligible illegal aliens through Congress, an initiative supported by the donor class.

"Such a plan, most recently, has been touted in an effort to negotiate a deal in which Trump receives anywhere between $1.6 and $5 billion for his proposed U.S.-Mexico border wall in exchange for approving a DACA amnesty for millions.

"The amnesty would render the border wall useless, as it would not only trigger increased illegal immigration at the border — which is already set to hit the highest annual level in a decade next year — but increased legal immigration to the country."

 

[DZoolander]

Meh I think illegal immigration needs to be addressed - but I think the wall is an expensive symbolic gesture that won’t yield results to justify the price.

Unfortunately though now the merits of the wall are irrelevant - and it’s become a partisan thing.

 

[The Barbarian]

Reality renders a wall useless.

Its only purpose is for Trump to rally his base.

I notice he's gone back on another promise. He now wants to deport Vietnamese refugees who came here to escape the Communist takeover of Vietnam.

Trump Moves to Deport Vietnam War Refugees

The White House again wants to expel certain groups of protected immigrants, a reversal after backing away from the policy months ago.
Many pre-1995 arrivals, all of whom were previously protected under the 2008 agreement by both the administrations of Presidents George W. Bush and Barack Obama, were refugees from the Vietnam War. Some are the children of those who once allied with American and South Vietnamese forces, an attribute that renders them undesirable to the current regime in Hanoi, which imputes anti-regime beliefs to the children of those who opposed North Vietnam. This anti-Communist constituency includes minorities such as the children of the American-allied Montagnards, who are persecuted in Vietnam for both their ethnicity and Christian religion.

The Trump administration’s move reflects an entirely new reading of the agreement, according to Ted Osius, who served as the United States ambassador to Vietnam from December 2014 through November 2017.* Osius said that while he was in office, the 2008 agreement was accepted by all involved parties as banning the deportation of all pre-1995 Vietnamese immigrants.
Donald Trump Moves to Deport Vietnam War Refugees - The Atlantic

I have friends who were ARVN soldiers, who barely escaped when Vietnam fell. They are considered enemies by the current communist regime. They would face persecution if they were sent back. That's of little concern to Cadet Bone Spurs, of course.

Decency and loyalty mean nothing at all to him.

 

[Junker P Hoodwink]

Reality renders a wall useless.

Its only purpose is for Trump to rally his base.

I notice he's gone back on another promise. He now wants to deport Vietnamese refugees who came here to escape the Communist takeover of Vietnam.

Trump Moves to Deport Vietnam War Refugees

The White House again wants to expel certain groups of protected immigrants, a reversal after backing away from the policy months ago.
Many pre-1995 arrivals, all of whom were previously protected under the 2008 agreement by both the administrations of Presidents George W. Bush and Barack Obama, were refugees from the Vietnam War. Some are the children of those who once allied with American and South Vietnamese forces, an attribute that renders them undesirable to the current regime in Hanoi, which imputes anti-regime beliefs to the children of those who opposed North Vietnam. This anti-Communist constituency includes minorities such as the children of the American-allied Montagnards, who are persecuted in Vietnam for both their ethnicity and Christian religion.

The Trump administration’s move reflects an entirely new reading of the agreement, according to Ted Osius, who served as the United States ambassador to Vietnam from December 2014 through November 2017.* Osius said that while he was in office, the 2008 agreement was accepted by all involved parties as banning the deportation of all pre-1995 Vietnamese immigrants.
Donald Trump Moves to Deport Vietnam War Refugees - The Atlantic

I have friends who were ARVN soldiers, who barely escaped when Vietnam fell. They are considered enemies by the current communist regime. They would face persecution if they were sent back. That's of little concern to Cadet Bone Spurs, of course.

Decency and loyalty mean nothing at all to him.

Really? This is news to me. I like Vietnamese people. In fact, there is a community of Vietnamese immigrants in the city I’m from in Texas, so I know quite a few myself. What do you think is the reason for Trump’s aggression against Vietnamese who fled the communist takeover of their country? I thought the southern Vietnamese, who were the victims, helped the US in our war over there. The fact that Trump would engage in such horrific perfidy against allies is baffling.

 

[tulc]

(snip)The fact that Trump would engage in such horrific perfidy against allies is baffling.

...uhmmm...attacking Americas allies is President Trumps major "accomplishment" since taking office. I'd put it right after his making adultery "no big deal" with US evangelicals, playing the most golf and is just a bit more popular then his tweeting like a 14 year old rich girl.
tulc(wonders if President Trumps bone spurs are acting up?)

 

[Go Braves]

Reality renders a wall useless.

Its only purpose is for Trump to rally his base.

I notice he's gone back on another promise. He now wants to deport Vietnamese refugees who came here to escape the Communist takeover of Vietnam.

Trump Moves to Deport Vietnam War Refugees

The White House again wants to expel certain groups of protected immigrants, a reversal after backing away from the policy months ago.
Many pre-1995 arrivals, all of whom were previously protected under the 2008 agreement by both the administrations of Presidents George W. Bush and Barack Obama, were refugees from the Vietnam War. Some are the children of those who once allied with American and South Vietnamese forces, an attribute that renders them undesirable to the current regime in Hanoi, which imputes anti-regime beliefs to the children of those who opposed North Vietnam. This anti-Communist constituency includes minorities such as the children of the American-allied Montagnards, who are persecuted in Vietnam for both their ethnicity and Christian religion.

The Trump administration’s move reflects an entirely new reading of the agreement, according to Ted Osius, who served as the United States ambassador to Vietnam from December 2014 through November 2017.* Osius said that while he was in office, the 2008 agreement was accepted by all involved parties as banning the deportation of all pre-1995 Vietnamese immigrants.
Donald Trump Moves to Deport Vietnam War Refugees - The Atlantic

I have friends who were ARVN soldiers, who barely escaped when Vietnam fell. They are considered enemies by the current communist regime. They would face persecution if they were sent back. That's of little concern to Cadet Bone Spurs, of course.

Decency and loyalty mean nothing at all to him.

Lol, that is word for word exactly what I was going to write. Spot on.

 

[Foxfyre]

DACA Amnesty Would Render Border Wall Useless, Cost Americans $26B

"A deal in which President Trump accepts an amnesty for millions of illegal aliens enrolled and eligible for President Obama’s Deferred Action for Childhood Arrivals (DACA) program in exchange for minor border wall funding would be counterproductive to the 'America First' goals of the administration, depressing U.S. wages in the process ahead of the 2020 election.'

{snip}

"Since then, a coalition of establishment Republicans and Democrats have sought to ram an amnesty for up to 3.5 million DACA-enrolled and eligible illegal aliens through Congress, an initiative supported by the donor class.

"Such a plan, most recently, has been touted in an effort to negotiate a deal in which Trump receives anywhere between $1.6 and $5 billion for his proposed U.S.-Mexico border wall in exchange for approving a DACA amnesty for millions.

"The amnesty would render the border wall useless, as it would not only trigger increased illegal immigration at the border — which is already set to hit the highest annual level in a decade next year — but increased legal immigration to the country."

I have no problem with kids who were brought here as young children, who grew up here, and have no memory of another country being allowed to stay legally. I don't have a problem with them being put in line for consideration for citizenship though they should wait their turn like everybody else who immigrates legally. And they should be 100% Americans and not quasi citizens with loyalties somewhere else. If they leave the country with their parents or to visit their parents or other relatives before they are granted full citizenship, they should have no automatic right to return. And none of their relatives should have any right to be here legally just because the kids are here legally.

And I support policies and enforcement that prevents more and more such people coming into the country illegally. And I support a change in the law so that only those born to citizens receive automatic citizenship. And I support a wall so long as we have masses of people determined to thumb their noses at our laws and take advantage of our generosity.

 

[The Barbarian]

And I support policies and enforcement that prevents more and more such people coming into the country illegally.

Illegal immigration fell markedly during Obama's term of office. Now, it's up again. Because Trump is doing all the wrong things to stop it.

And I support a change in the law so that only those born to citizens receive automatic citizenship.

Here's how to get started:
https://www.archives.gov/federal-register/constitution

And I support a wall so long as we have masses of people determined to thumb their noses at our laws and take advantage of our generosity.

How will that stop repubicans?

 

[The Barbarian]

Really? This is news to me. I like Vietnamese people. In fact, there is a community of Vietnamese immigrants in the city I’m from in Texas, so I know quite a few myself. What do you think is the reason for Trump’s aggression against Vietnamese who fled the communist takeover of their country?

They were fleeing a dictatorship.

I thought the southern Vietnamese, who were the victims, helped the US in our war over there.

They did. If they are sent back they'll be subject to persecution.

The fact that Trump would engage in such horrific perfidy against allies is baffling.

Do you know what happened when Trump got his draft notice?

 

[Andrew77]

DACA Amnesty Would Render Border Wall Useless, Cost Americans $26B

"A deal in which President Trump accepts an amnesty for millions of illegal aliens enrolled and eligible for President Obama’s Deferred Action for Childhood Arrivals (DACA) program in exchange for minor border wall funding would be counterproductive to the 'America First' goals of the administration, depressing U.S. wages in the process ahead of the 2020 election.'

{snip}

"Since then, a coalition of establishment Republicans and Democrats have sought to ram an amnesty for up to 3.5 million DACA-enrolled and eligible illegal aliens through Congress, an initiative supported by the donor class.

"Such a plan, most recently, has been touted in an effort to negotiate a deal in which Trump receives anywhere between $1.6 and $5 billion for his proposed U.S.-Mexico border wall in exchange for approving a DACA amnesty for millions.

"The amnesty would render the border wall useless, as it would not only trigger increased illegal immigration at the border — which is already set to hit the highest annual level in a decade next year — but increased legal immigration to the country."

We should eliminate all Amnesty.

We should enforce basic immigration law. You apply, you wait, you get a VISA, then you are allowed in. Period.

 

[The Barbarian]

We should eliminate all Amnesty.

A person brought here as a child, knowing no other language or culture, belongs here as long as he or she doesn't commit crimes. That's just common decency.

 

[Andrew77]

Reality renders a wall useless.

Its only purpose is for Trump to rally his base.

I notice he's gone back on another promise. He now wants to deport Vietnamese refugees who came here to escape the Communist takeover of Vietnam.

Trump Moves to Deport Vietnam War Refugees

The White House again wants to expel certain groups of protected immigrants, a reversal after backing away from the policy months ago.
Many pre-1995 arrivals, all of whom were previously protected under the 2008 agreement by both the administrations of Presidents George W. Bush and Barack Obama, were refugees from the Vietnam War. Some are the children of those who once allied with American and South Vietnamese forces, an attribute that renders them undesirable to the current regime in Hanoi, which imputes anti-regime beliefs to the children of those who opposed North Vietnam. This anti-Communist constituency includes minorities such as the children of the American-allied Montagnards, who are persecuted in Vietnam for both their ethnicity and Christian religion.

The Trump administration’s move reflects an entirely new reading of the agreement, according to Ted Osius, who served as the United States ambassador to Vietnam from December 2014 through November 2017.* Osius said that while he was in office, the 2008 agreement was accepted by all involved parties as banning the deportation of all pre-1995 Vietnamese immigrants.
Donald Trump Moves to Deport Vietnam War Refugees - The Atlantic

I have friends who were ARVN soldiers, who barely escaped when Vietnam fell. They are considered enemies by the current communist regime. They would face persecution if they were sent back. That's of little concern to Cadet Bone Spurs, of course.

Decency and loyalty mean nothing at all to him.

This is insane.

You are telling me, that we have people here that are considered "refugees" from the Vietnam war, that ended by 1975?

So you are saying, that people have been living in this country for 44 years, and never got citizenship?

You need to explain to me why. If the reason is because these people willfully choose to not become American citizens, then they deserve to be deported.

If you are telling me it is because the government did not provide a way to become a citizen, then congress should be beaten with sticks.

Either way, I'm glad Trump is confronting this stupidity and trying to get it fixed.

 

[Andrew77]

A person brought here as a child, knowing no other language or culture, belongs here as long as he or she doesn't commit crimes. That's just common decency.

Amnesty should be eliminated. Period.

As long as you continue to give support to ideas that validate adults violating our laws, because they believe "it's just common decency" to overlook criminal actions, then laws will continue to be broken, and the problems will grow.

Imagine if you used that logic anywhere else.

Bernie Madoffs son. He had no idea what was going on, and never broke any laws. He was just a guy doing what he believed was right. When the courts moved to confiscate everything he has..... was that right? Even though his father is the one who broke all the laws?

Or should we have allowed him to keep everything?

He killed himself because we confiscated all his stuff.

At some point, we need to end this. It is because of DACA that children are flowing across the border, alone, or in the hands of gangs and human traffickers.

The most caring, the most decent, the most moral thing we can do, is completely close this system down, and impose concrete rules on immigration.

All the children that have died being dragged across the desert, is because of this "common decency". It isn't. It's cruel, and it is killing people. It needs to stop.

 

[hedrick]

No, an amnesty has no effect on the wall. (I should note that amnesty can be a misleading term. All the real proposals are for what I'd call a partial amnesty.)

In principle, at least, amnesty is part of a larger plan, which includes -- or at least is consistent with -- a reasonable level of control of immigration. Suppose we managed to eliminate all illegal immigration. We'd still need to deal with people who are already here. We have neither the will nor resources to remove all unauthorized immigrants. That's what DACA and other partial amnesties are about. But amnesty is consistent with still caring about control of immigration.

Of course the wall doesn't look like the best approach to control immigration, but that has nothing to do with whether we have an amnesty or not.

 

[The Barbarian]

Amnesty should be eliminated. Period.

Americans disagree with you.

An overwhelming majority of Americans supports legal protections for certain undocumented immigrants brought to the U.S. as children, according to a new CBS News poll.

According to the survey, almost 9 in 10 respondents — 87 percent — said they believe that the so-called Dreamers should be allowed to remain in the U.S. if they meet certain requirements, such as working or going to school.
Poll: Nearly 9 in 10 want DACA recipients to stay in US

As long as you continue to give support to ideas that validate deporting these people, then you're part of the problem. And a huge majority of Americans think you are.

Bernie Madoffs son.

Sorry, no bunny trails for you, today. Maybe you should stop and consider why you're so out of step with America.

 

[The Barbarian]

This is insane.

You are telling me, that we have people here that are considered "refugees" from the Vietnam war, that ended by 1975?

Yep. I have a couple of friends, former ARVN soldiers who are.

So you are saying, that people have been living in this country for 44 years, and never got citizenship?

I don't know, really. Shouldn't matter. They are legal residents. Moreover, Trump proposed removing some of them even if they are citizens.

You need to explain to me why.

They fought alongside Americans in Vietnam. They risked their lives helping us. They would be persecuted if they returned.

I don't think there's much chance of them being deported, since Trump has already learned that most Vietnamese people living here were republicans. Orange county was reliably republican because of the many Vietnamese living there. Not so much, now.

 

[Andrew77]

Yep. I have a couple of friends, former ARVN soldiers who are.



I don't know, really. Shouldn't matter. They are legal residents. Moreover, Trump proposed removing some of them even if they are citizens.



They fought alongside Americans in Vietnam. They risked their lives helping us. They would be persecuted if they returned.

I don't think there's much chance of them being deported, since Trump has already learned that most Vietnamese people living here were republicans. Orange county was reliably republican because of the many Vietnamese living there. Not so much, now.

You are not answering the question I asked. I don't care about any of that crap. Republican? I don't care. Fighting with whatever? I don't care.

They are here now, and here is what I want to know.....

.....why after 44 years, have they not become citizens?

That is the question I want answered.

None of that other stuff is relevant to the discussion. If you are going to stay in this country, great. I support that. But, you are to become a US citizen.

If you choose to not become a US citizen, then you have chosen to put yourself in a situation where you could be deported.

That's reality. Why did they not become US citizens? I don't need a history lesson, or a political spectrum survey. Why did they not become citizens?

 

[Andrew77]

Americans disagree with you.

An overwhelming majority of Americans supports legal protections for certain undocumented immigrants brought to the U.S. as children, according to a new CBS News poll.

According to the survey, almost 9 in 10 respondents — 87 percent — said they believe that the so-called Dreamers should be allowed to remain in the U.S. if they meet certain requirements, such as working or going to school.
Poll: Nearly 9 in 10 want DACA recipients to stay in US

As long as you continue to give support to ideas that validate deporting these people, then you're part of the problem. And a huge majority of Americans think you are.



Sorry, no bunny trails for you, today. Maybe you should stop and consider why you're so out of step with America.

I don't care what a political opinion survey says.

You have a strange idea of "law" if you think that because 9 out of 10 people say it's ok to murder someone, that makes it ok.

Law is law. Same is true of immigration law. You don't get to just say "laws don't matter when it involves immigration and a survey of public opinion".

Law is law. Period. Amnesty is a bad system that kills people, and undermines the rule of law.

 

[The Barbarian]

You are not answering the question I asked. I don't care about any of that crap. Republican? I don't care. Fighting with whatever? I don't care.

Americans do. So you're just irrelevant.

 

[The Barbarian]

I don't care what a political opinion survey says.

This is a nation governed by the people. Even the Constitution can be changed if we so desire.

You have a strange idea of "law" if you think that because 9 out of 10 people say it's ok to murder someone, that makes it ok.

If you have to make up weird ideas and pretend that other people hold them, that's a pretty good clue for you, isn't it?

Law is law. Period.

Yep. That's why Trump is sweating right now.

Amnesty is a bad system that kills people

Amnesty, such as the one by Ronald Reagan, is a perfectly legal process. Law is law. And it may be killing you, but most people think it's a sensible way to handle those kids who grew up as Americans, who were brought here illegally without their knowledge. For the DACA people, who have obeyed the law, and who are productive workers or college students, deportation is an obvious injustice and needs to be corrected.

If this bothers you so much, why not find a country where your views are accepted and lawful? I'll help you pack, if you like.