Worship Theaters and Worship Temples

talitha

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To me the word worship and the word theatre seem contradictory.

Theatres are for performances and shows, aren't they? Or maybe I don't know what you mean by "worship theatre".

Also the phrase "worship temple" is a little odd to me as a New Testament believer. My body is a temple..... do you mean sanctuary?

I'm sorry- I'm a little confused by the wording......

For me right now IHOP-KC and MorningStar are both important in terms of worship music and a modern style of God-encounter.

blessings
tal
 
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To me the word worship and the word theatre seem contradictory.
tal[/quote

When I was asked to join a Vineyard song team, the concept of being a worshipper, having a worshipping soul or heart, was the preparatory tone for leading small group worship. From the consecrated, sacred soul, worship extended to form sacred space, and from there to enlarge into a sacred place. The concept of worship was from within the true temple, outwardly to the enlarged temple of gatherers. Those who came were not coming to a theatre or a temple, they were bringing the temple and not joining in a theatrical production. Musicianship was important, but showmanship was not important.

I knew the wording would be challenging for this reason.

Thanks for contributing, tal.:wave:
 
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Janet842

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Maybe a less convoluted question would work better? How about just asking which churches are known for their worship programs?

Brooklyn Tabernacle has an awesome program. They have a lot of stuff on YouTube, but many of those are from performances, rather than worship services. Type in "I'll say yes Lord" in "Search" and you can find one from a worship service.

Brooklyn Tabernacle puts on a Music Conference every year that I would LOVE to go to. They compose a lot of their own music and full orchestrations of their charts can be purchased on their web site. The nice thing about Brooklyn Tabernacle is that their music is set up to be played by more than just your typical guitar/rhythm section so that fits our church quite well. Also, their charts aren't the typical dumbed down church charts so they are a lot of fun to play!

Janet
 
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Maybe a less convoluted question would work better? How about just asking which churches are known for their worship programs?

Janet

Doesn't the 'convoluted question' force you to think in a less traditional way about worship? Like syncopation, it creates a contrasting effect. That's something a songleader or music director might consider.:D

Thank you for your answer.:wave:
 
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Janet842

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When I was asked to join a Vineyard song team, the concept of being a worshipper, having a worshipping soul or heart, was the preparatory tone for leading small group worship. From the consecrated, sacred soul, worship extended to form sacred space, and from there to enlarge into a sacred place. The concept of worship was from within the true temple, outwardly to the enlarged temple of gatherers. Those who came were not coming to a theatre or a temple, they were bringing the temple and not joining in a theatrical production. Musicianship was important, but showmanship was not important.

When I read something like this, it just seems like someone has spent a lot of time over-analyzing and intellectualizing something. That might be fine for some people, but I look at worship through the heart. So when I wrote "Maybe a less convoluted question would work better?" I am coming from that position.

I was attending Vineyard Christian Fellowship of Denver when they were having an Acts kind of outpouring of the Holy Spirit in the mid-80's. That outpouring lasted for years, but died when a man came in from California to join our leadership to "show them how it's done." He began to teach a step-by-step procedure to the ministry team that was supposed to guarantee that the Holy Spirit would show up and begin touching and healing people because we had done his list of things to say and do. This man had used his mind to try to understand the move of the Spirit and then reduced the Spirit to just a "thing" to be controlled. The Holy Spirit withdrew, the outpouring ended. If only things had stayed of the heart...

I'm not saying there is no place for intellect, because we are to use our minds to discern. But, you can go too far with analyzing, just as people who place too much emphasis on emotionalism can live out of balance.

But, I suppose this has gotten too far off topic so I'll quit now.

Janet
 
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heron

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I was confused too. That brings up the topic that a leader will connect with the people in similar ways that a teacher or writer would. A teacher knows what learning level students are at, reviews the old and gradually brings in the new.

There is no benefit to jumping ahead and presenting what they have already been convinced of, without explaining the steps that brought them to that conclusion.

I heard a sermon once where the pastor said, [And we all know dinosaurs were around during the flood.] Do we? Are we supposed to? That thought-provoking statement led the congregation off track from the sermon's train of thought.

In a similar way, a worship leader might be swimming in ecstasy from practice, and frustrated that the congregation did not jump into it. Or they try a new song with complex chords and no music for the congregation to read; or they call people to worship with lingo like "theater" that the people don't yet have background on.

Language is communicating with others. Leading another's mind in a direction, or into adapted understanding. When looking for a church or leading worship, it is good to keep this premise in mind -- if it looks like God is moving but you're not making that connection, then what you're hoping will happen might not happen.

Where are the best worship theaters and worship temples?
Who are the most important worship leaders or groups?
The greatest of these is love.
 
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JoeyWhiteshoes

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Janet842, I totally agree with you. I attended a "worship seminar" yesterday. 1/2 hour of worship service and 4 hours of sit down learning. It should have been the other way around.

We don't learn to worship by study. We learn to worship by worshipping. (Music is not the only way we can worship our Creator, either).

Joey
 
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Janet842

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Janet842, I totally agree with you. I attended a "worship seminar" yesterday. 1/2 hour of worship service and 4 hours of sit down learning. It should have been the other way around.

We don't learn to worship by study. We learn to worship by worshipping.

Wow, could you imagine what it would be like to participate in corporate worship in song for 4 hours? If led well, that would be amazing, if led poorly, it would be torture.

When I was part of Vineyard music ministry many, many years back, they did have an excellent understanding of how to lead others into worship. They trained their worship leaders to know how to take a congregation away from the weights, concerns and distractions they walked into the service with and into a place of deep, heartfelt worship – singing love songs to the Lord. It is a skill that can only be partially taught. All the intellect in the world won't make a great worship leader. One has to have a heart like David to bring it about.
 
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heron

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Wow, could you imagine what it would be like to participate in corporate worship in song for 4 hours?
Back in the old days, fellowships used to do that. We would have all-night meetings, where people just slept on the floor if they got too tired. People with kids would bring them for an hour, then take them home to sleep and come back.

Often it would be centered on prayer for revival before a speaker came to town, or New Year repentance and renewal, or another specific concern. The OT had sackcloth repentance, where the whole city turned out. Charles Finney revivals involved more preaching, but were intense. IHOPS have mid-week long worship services. (Not the pancake houses.)

Long worship and prayer services are more widely accepted in Korea and Africa. (Pipe in, anyone else.) I think the Methodist camp meetings used to hold long services too... does anybody know?

Now we think we're too busy. Or dependent on a leader to hold services. Things are relatively comfortable, and Christian influence widely available, so we don't sense that pressing need to invest large blocks of time.

In contemporary churches, some worship team members practice and pray for an hour, then worship during two services -- that can add up to four hours of singing worship and prayer, depending on the church.

You might want to visit wteam practices, and offer to pray for them while they practice -- it's very nice to worship in a quieter, more flexible setting, where you're free to walk around.

The OP question for me, would be -- where are a few people who are so dedicated to prayer and the mighty work of God, that they will take initiative whether a pastor does or not.

I tend to find a large percentage of them in Charismatic churches, so when I feel desperate for that kind of spiritual support, I head toward a good Charismatic church. It is not just the size, but the intensity that matters. If you felt supernaturally oppressed, would a few people come round you and declare the power of God over that circumstance... take charge spiritually... people like that are needed, to keep good worship alive.

Worship ties in, but experience in spiritual life usually brings additional strength and discernment (hopefully)...determination to live out Christianity the way Jesus asked His disciples to. If you can find a few people that are willing to live like that, then go where they go... or create a worship service with them.

What, we still didn't answer your question? (-;
 
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This past weekend I was invited to attend a congregation for a dedication of an outside meditation garden and prayer labyrinth. My wife and I went together. This was a chance to meet some of the congregation who remained after a pastor left during his time as pastor. It seems he was determined to prove himself correct which resulted in dividing and conquering his united congregation. Although they are in a denomination that presents itself as evangelical, it seems their traditions and beliefs did not permit renewal.

We were told that they were auditioning for congregation singing leaders because they had none. Their prior music ministers quit the congregation. They wanted contemporary worship and it was refused by the pastor and music leaders.

Without musicians to lead praise and worship they know that their goal of renewal and revival cannot be realized. That have awakened, in my opinion, and this pruning of the vine will result in a more optimum, culture-current setting which invites a more diverse membership of those destined for salvation. Their nave and sanctuary are small and modern, and I have the idea to present to the congregational leaders the concept of the Vineyard Genetic Code and musical style.
 
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JoeyWhiteshoes

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Their nave and sanctuary are small and modern, and I have the idea to present to the congregational leaders the concept of the Vineyard Genetic Code and musical style.

It's too bad that you have to present the CONCEPT and not just go ahead and show them what the Vineyard musical style is all about....by plugging in and letting them have it!

Joey
 
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It's too bad that you have to present the CONCEPT and not just go ahead and show them what the Vineyard musical style is all about....by plugging in and letting them have it!

Joey

This morning I met with leaders of the congregation. One of them had the idea to open the church for contemporary worship by allowing auditions and introduction of the contemporary format on several Saturday mornings in October. The others are in agreement. They knew nothing about the Vineyard music style.

I will bring my Taylor guitar and Fender amp and audition a three-song praise set, with my wife singing vocals with me.:clap:
 
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JoeyWhiteshoes

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This morning I met with leaders of the congregation. One of them had the idea to open the church for contemporary worship by allowing auditions and introduction of the contemporary format on several Saturday mornings in October. The others are in agreement. They knew nothing about the Vineyard music style.

I will bring my Taylor guitar and Fender amp and audition a three-song praise set, with my wife singing vocals with me.:clap:

I wish you the best as you lead your church in that direction.

And dude, you have a couple more surfboards than I do...but mine are way bigger. My shortest is an 8'2".

Joey
 
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heron

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I was attending Vineyard Christian Fellowship of Denver when they were having an Acts kind of outpouring of the Holy Spirit in the mid-80's. That outpouring lasted for years, but died when a man came in from California to join our leadership to "show them how it's done." He began to teach a step-by-step procedure to the ministry team that was supposed to guarantee that the Holy Spirit would show up and begin touching and healing people because we had done his list of things to say and do. This man had used his mind to try to understand the move of the Spirit and then reduced the Spirit to just a "thing" to be controlled. The Holy Spirit withdrew, the outpouring ended. If only things had stayed of the heart...

No one thinks it can happen to them. And no one thinks they are the one doing it. I have found over the years that God works wherever people ask Him to -- traditional, contemporary, Vineyard/IHOP style, or two people sitting over a lunch table.

That same sense of believers manipulating the work of God yanked me out of a very intense worship team. Things were going on that I did not want my name attached to, and I could not stomach supporting. The members were good people, devoted believers, very in tune with God... but this overconfidence kept them from seeing how quickly they could fall.

I am currently in contact with many dedicated Christians (outside of church church) who have been in contemporary music settings, but prefer historical music that promotes quiet contemplation, overlaps richer instrumental phrases, and contains thought-provoking lyrics.

For them, increased sound and movement distracts them from worship. It is important to recognize that people have different worship styles, just like they have different learning styles and personalities.

It's great that there are people in the church who crave contemporary, and you are able to fill that need. Just be careful to respect all members of the church -- who considered themselves "we are the church" before you arrived. I have watched several churches make this transition, with very similar statements about contemporary music. New people came in, while other good people left. It just shifted what the church was.

Some people are at the labyrinth church because they like that pace. They selected a church that fit their personalities and spiritual needs. But there are parents who make choices, and children or spouses who want something different. Your description sounds like the timing is right to bring that in for a portion of the people who want it.

The Vineyard teachings bring a spiritual depth that can be useful with or without musical or structural change. God has given you something that you can share with people... but make sure you also value each person who is already there. Make love the greatest aim.

Sorry to be so contrary... you put up with a lot of that from me! You are very resilient. It is clear that God has placed something on your heart, and has directed you to places where individuals are crying out for what you can offer. It appears from the situation that there is a narrow group, which might expand... but you won't need to make everything work for everyone. You seem to have a niche calling there.
 
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DLC

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One of the best methods satan has at his disposal is to get the church and Christians to be complacent about worldliness. I find much of this within the modern worship of our churches. The church is looking more and more like the world in every way. The so called christian contemoprary music scene is just as bad as what the world puts out. People sing out of tune. The words cannot be understood. The accompaniment is way to loud. The words, if you can understand then, are poor theology most of time. Why does the church have to use the worlds methods with its worship. When the church looks like the world it loses its appeal. We should be different from world with our music, dress, entertainment, and in every way. the church is not an entertainment center but and educational learning place. We are teach the member the Word of God so that they may grow in grace and the knwledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. God tells us not to love the world and to be separate from the world. Yet the church today thinks it is going to attract the world and win the world for Christ by looking like the world. those who believe this could never be more wrong.
Jesus tell us that when we life Him up He will draw all men unto Himself.
If we look and act just like the world what difference does Christianity really have to offer then.
1 John 2:15
5 Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.
KJV
2 Cor 6:14-18
14 Do not be bound together with unbelievers; for what partnership have righteousness and lawlessness, or what fellowship has light with darkness? 15 Or what harmony has Christ with Belial, or what has a believer in common with an unbeliever? 16 Or what agreement has the temple of God with idols? For we are the temple of the living God; just as God said,
" I WILL DWELL IN THEM AND WALK AMONG THEM;
AND I WILL BE THEIR GOD, AND THEY SHALL BE MY PEOPLE.
17 " Therefore,COME OUT FROM THEIR MIDST AND BE SEPARATE," says the Lord.
"AND DO NOT TOUCH WHAT IS UNCLEAN;
And I will welcome you.
18 " And I will be a father to you,
And you shall be sons and daughters to Me,"
Says the Lord Almighty.
NASU
2 Cor 5:17
17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.
KJV
John 12:32
"And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, willdraw all men to Myself."
NASU


The Bible has far more to say about music than you might think. It does matter to God what type of music we use and how we perform it. It does matter who is performing the music. Do you use unsaved people in your music program because they have tallent? By no means. But sadly many church hire unsaved musicians to fill their orchestra thinking this will enhance their program. What does God think about using unsaved people in our church services. It is a abomination to Him. What is their that an unsaved person is able to offer God? Nothing, because he is a sinner. Only those who are saved and living a life pleasing to God should be used in our services.

Let's take a good hard look at what we are doing and why we are doing it and let's make change so that we can glorify God in everything we do.
 
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JoeyWhiteshoes

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Yeah, they probably said the same thing when "modern" hymns began being sung in the 1800"s. Don't get me wrong here. I'm not goinjg to start an arguement but I do want to express my thoughts on this subject.

I remember the severe discussions going on in our church as to whether or not "How Great Thou Art" and "This Is Our Father's World" could be sung in or church. After all, they were not in the hymnals.

The very thought of doing away with hymnals and putting the words up, on a screen, was another big topic for discussion.

Things change. Roll with it. Meet the people where they are and teach the Bible once they get there.

Which one of our glorious hymns was King David dancing to when we read that account in the OT?

I will agree that some of the contemporary songs are not Biblically/theologically correct. No problem in leaving them out of the line up. Some of them, I find very offensive and I will not play them and I turn them off when they come on the radio. However, many of the old hymns show theological error but congregations just keep singing them year after year.

I have been to "set free" type of churches that were filled with bikers, druggies and who knows what else. Their worship music was classic rock songs with the lyrics changed to reflect Christian values. The music might have been ZZ Top or Led Zepelin but the words were Gospel and the Spirit is definitely present and working in that church.

But I do draw the line at Christian "rap" music.:waaah:

Joey
 
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Janet842

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Do you find that there are things – objects, places, music – that bring back pleasant memories of past times and touch your heart to a degree that something new can't? I think hymns are that for many people. They bring back happy memories of the past.

The reason my heart doesn't well in emotion when singing hymns is that I was not raised with them. I have no happy memories of lifelong church attendance, faith in God, or of old familiar hymns sung every Sunday. I do agree that many churches use theologically incorrect songs for worship, but the church I attend screens contemporary worship music for theological correctness before allowing their use. We also use hymns, but they are set to contemporary instrumental arrangements. Because we aren't doing them with just piano (or organ and choir), I find it fascinating that even though the words and the melody are exactly the same, people in our congregation are still unhappy because the music isn't presented exactly as it was in their childhoods.

Memories are a powerful influence on how we worship, but worship is about God, not our likes and dislikes. I have to confess that I sometimes fail drastically here. If I don't care for the music or lyrics it affects my worship and I should not be allowing that to happen. My response just reveals that I am immature and self-centered – focusing on myself and not on praising God.
 
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