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Worship of Jesus.......Idolatry?

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by lared, Dec 25, 2002.

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  1. lared

    lared Active Member

    936
    +12
    How does John 3:14,15 help one to see how christendom could fall into the trap of idolatry with the worship of Jesus?

    (John 3:14-15) And just as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so the Son of man must be lifted up, 15 that everyone believing in him may have everlasting life.
     
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  2. Wonder

    Wonder Member

    108
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    You got it right in my eyes. There is one God and one Lord, ok to worship either but not to put Lord as God. For He is a jealous God. One needs to look closely at Jesus, but once that is done, you can see God. Jesus is Lord and Jehovah is God.
     
  3. lared

    lared Active Member

    936
    +12
    The Israelites had a problem with murmuring and complaining in the wilderness prior to entering the promised land.

    For this, they had to be disciplined. Notice the account at Numbers 21:4-6:

    4While they continued trekking from Mount Hor by the way of the Red Sea to go around the land of E'dom, the soul of the people began tiring out because of the way. 5 And the people kept speaking against God and Moses: "Why have YOU brought us up out of Egypt to die in the wilderness? For there is no bread and no water, and our soul has come to abhor the contemptible bread." 6 So Jehovah sent poisonous serpents among the people, and they kept biting the people, so that many people of Israel died.

    The Israelites realized their sin and asked Moses to intercede for them. Notice what Jehovah God (Jesus' heavenly Father--Almighty God) did in their behalf at Numbers 21:7-9:

    7 Finally the people came to Moses and said: "We have sinned, because we have spoken against Jehovah and against you. Intercede with Jehovah that he may remove the serpents from upon us." And Moses went interceding in behalf of the people. 8 Then Jehovah said to Moses: "Make for yourself a fiery snake and place it upon a signal pole. And it must occur that when anyone has been bitten, he then has to look at it and so must keep alive." 9 Moses at once made a serpent of copper and placed it upon the signal pole; and it did occur that if a serpent had bitten a man and he gazed at the copper serpent, he then kept alive.

    Can you see a parallel between the serpent of copper and Christ Jesus?

    In both instances, Jehovah God (Jesus' heavenly Father, Almighty God) provided a means of salvation. Much like a doctor provides a life-saving medicine.
     
  4. Jephunneh

    Jephunneh Active Member

    703
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    If Jesus Christ is God it is not idolatry.
     
  5. lared

    lared Active Member

    936
    +12
    Then the converse must be true.....If Jesus is not God Almighty but was created......then it is idolatry.
     
  6. lared

    lared Active Member

    936
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    But please give attention to the subject matter of this thread......the parallel found at John 3:14,15.
     
  7. Jephunneh

    Jephunneh Active Member

    703
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    Yea, that's what I said. "IF"
     
  8. JesusServant

    JesusServant do not stray too far left nor right but CENTER

    +24
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    Married
    US-Constitution
    This is one area that I think the Jews then and now harp on.  God said to worship no one before Him yet Jesus said He is the way to God, so that alone is their reason to say He wasn't the Messiah.
     
  9. Ben johnson

    Ben johnson Legend Supporter

    +375
    Christian
    Jesus ACCEPTED worship, dozens of times. What does that tell you?

    In Rev1, "JEHOVAH is the ALPHA and OMEGA, who is and was and is to come, the Almighty." In Rev22, JESUS is the Alpha and Omega, first and last, beginning and end...

    What does that tell you of who Jehovah is, and who Jesus is???
     
  10. lared

    lared Active Member

    936
    +12
    Try to stick with the parallel account that is found at John 3:14,15.

    More is coming.
     
  11. Blade

    Blade Veteran Supporter

    +2,457
    United States
    Christian
    Married
    I believe its talking about Jesus being crucified.
     
  12. Apologist

    Apologist 2 Tim. 2:24-26

    +11
    Christian
    How does worshipping Jesus equate to idol worship?

    Idol worship is worshipping an image.

    The incident when Moses lifted up the serpent was a forshadowing of what Christ would one day do for us.
     
  13. Wonder

    Wonder Member

    108
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    The way I see it is that Jesus was created lower than the angles...just as we are. There is but one God and nothing is good besides Him. We are told not to worship the created, but the Creator. That being the Father.
    Jesus was raised up so that through Him we find life. I think when we worship Jesus as God, we put man on the level of God. And we are told not to do that. Jesus is the Son of God....The Father is His God and our God. We are to all worship one God, the same God. Jesus's God was the Father, He is my God also....One day everyone will confess that Jesus is Lord, not God. And those who do not see Him as the Son of God shall.
     
  14. Jephunneh

    Jephunneh Active Member

    703
    +0
    John 3
    14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
    15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

    Numbers 21
    5 And the people spake against God, and against Moses, Wherefore have ye brought us up out of Egypt to die in the wilderness? for there is no bread, neither is there any water; and our soul loatheth this light bread.
    6 And the LORD sent fiery serpents among the people, and they bit the people; and much people of Israel died.
    7 Therefore the people came to Moses, and said, We have sinned, for we have spoken against the LORD, and against thee; pray unto the LORD, that he take away the serpents from us. And Moses prayed for the people.
    8 And the LORD said unto Moses, Make thee a fiery serpent, and set it upon a pole: and it shall come to pass, that every one that is bitten, when he looketh upon it, shall live.
    9 And Moses made a serpent of brass, and put it upon a pole, and it came to pass, that if a serpent had bitten any man, when he beheld the serpent of brass, he lived.

    2 Kings 18
    3 And he did that which was right in the sight of the LORD, according to all that David his father did.
    4 He removed the high places, and brake the images, and cut down the groves, and brake in pieces the brasen serpent that Moses had made: for unto those days the children of Israel did burn incense to it: and he called it Nehushtan.
    5 He trusted in the LORD God of Israel; so that after him was none like him among all the kings of Judah, nor any that were before him.
     
  15. lared

    lared Active Member

    936
    +12
    Yes....the question came up........What ever became of that copper serpent that Jehovah had Moses make?

    Is it in a museum in London? Is it buried under mounds of earth awaiting discovery by archaeologists?

    Remember that the Israelites were well versed that they were only to worship their one God.....Jehovah.
     
  16. lared

    lared Active Member

    936
    +12
    Notice that in due time, the Israelites began to focus their attention away from their one true God Jehovah and began to put their full focus on the copper serpent.

    In other words, rather then worshiping the giver of salvation, they began to worship the means of salvation.


    Please notice what King Hezekiah did centuries later at 2Kings 18:1-4:

    18 And it came about in the third year of Ho·she'a the son of E'lah the king of Israel that Hez·e·ki'ah the son of A'haz the king of Judah became king. 2 Twenty-five years old he happened to be when he began to reign, and for twenty-nine years he reigned in Jerusalem. And his mother's name was A'bi the daughter of Zech·a·ri'ah. 3 And he continued to do what was right in Jehovah's eyes, according to all that David his forefather had done. 4 He it was that removed the high places and broke the sacred pillars to pieces and cut down the sacred pole and crushed to pieces the copper serpent that Moses had made; for down to those days the sons of Israel had continually been making sacrificial smoke to it, and it used to be called the copper serpent-idol.

    Oh yes, the Israelites still had their laws and scriptures....but they deviated as they often did from true worship.

    And this is exactly what christendom has done. They have left off worship of the only true God Jehovah (which is the common modern day English pronunciation of the heavenly Father, Almighty God-------the one to whom Abraham, Moses, David, and yes.....even Jesus prayed to).

    And christendom has now focused all of their attention on Jesus....the means of salvation, rather then the giver of salvation. Why in fact in many, but not all, even the name of Almighty God has been expunged from their Bibles.

    Yes, the copper serpent in the wilderness saved the lives of many in the wilderness, but it was only Jehovah that the Israelites were to worship.

    Hard to imagine that an entire religious system could be wrong....that is christendom....and yet the parallel is there with apostate Israel. It is nothing new.
     
  17. Ben johnson

    Ben johnson Legend Supporter

    +375
    Christian
    Jesus was not created. In John chapter 1, Jesus is "THE WORD". "The Word flesh became, and tabernacled among us." Jesus is the Creator. "And through Him ALL THINGS were created, and apart from Him was NOTHING created THAT WAS CREATED. Do you understand what that means? Apart from Jesus, NOTHING MADE was made. THUS---if Jesus was MADE, then WHO MADE JESUS?

    "Without father, without mother, without genealogy, having neither beginning of days nor end of life, but made ("aphomoioo"---copy, model, facsimile; to BECOME LIKE, not to be CREATED AS) like the Son of God, He (Jesus 6:20) abides a priest forever." Heb7:3

    Jesus accepted worship.

    Jesus was a LYING FOOL.
    Jesus was a RAVING LUNATIC.

    OR...

    ...Jesus was GOD-BECAME-MAN.

    There is no number 4, you must believe one of the three. And if you believe one that is WRONG, then eternity will bear your consequence...
     
  18. Apologist

    Apologist 2 Tim. 2:24-26

    +11
    Christian
    It never seizes to amaze me when people make this statement.

    Do you not understand what the term "Son of God" means?

    To be called God's son in this manner means that Jesus is of the same ontological being as God the Father. That means Jesus is of the same essence as the Father.
     
  19. Wonder

    Wonder Member

    108
    +0
    There is not anything wrong with worshipping Jesus...as long as you don't worship Him as God.

    Hebrews 2
    7 Thou madest him a little lower than the angels; thou crownedst him with glory and honour, and didst set him over the works of thy hands:
    8 Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing that is not put under him. But now we see not yet all things put under him.
    9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.

    If made and created isn't the same...repeated twice here...then tell me what it does mean.

    Sarah called Abraham lord...alot of people worship alot of things...we are wrong when we worship someone or something as God.
     
  20. Apologist

    Apologist 2 Tim. 2:24-26

    +11
    Christian
    That's a very nice example of taking a verse out of context.

    Why don't you read the first chapter of Hebrews first?

    Hebrews 1:1-4 says:

    God, who at various times and in various ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets, 2 has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the worlds; 3 who being the brightness of His glory and the express image of His person, and upholding all things by the word of His power, when He had by Himself purged our sins, sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high, 4 having become so much better than the angels, as He has by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.

    This clearly teaches that Jesus and God the Father are equal ontologically.

    Not enough proof for you?

    Continiue on in verse 8 and 9:

    But to the Son He says:

    “Your throne, O God, is forever and ever;
    A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom.
    9 You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness;
    Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You
    With the oil of gladness more than Your companions.”

    Jesus was referring to this in Matthew 22:41-46:


    While the Pharisees were gathered together, Jesus asked them, 42 saying, “What do you think about the Christ? Whose Son is He?”
    They said to Him, “The Son of David.”
    43 He said to them, “How then does David in the Spirit call Him ‘Lord,’ saying:

    44 ‘The Lord said to my Lord,
    “Sit at My right hand,
    Till I make Your enemies Your footstool” ’?

    45 If David then calls Him ‘Lord,’ how is He his Son?” 46 And no one was able to answer Him a word, nor from that day on did anyone dare question Him anymore.


    God the Father is talking to Jesus and calling him God.
    Nothing could be clearer.
     
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