Worldly Wisdom Renders The Cross Powerless

[Mr. M]

1 Corinthians 1:
17 For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel, not with
wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of no effect.
18 For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing,
but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.
19 For it is written: I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and bring to nothing
the understanding of the prudent.
20 Where is the wise? Where is the scribe? Where is the disputer of this age?
Has not God made the wisdom of this world foolish?

Crucified Christ [the seed of Abraham] The Power and Wisdom of God
1 Corinthians 1:
21 For since, in the wisdom of God, the world through wisdom did not know God, it pleased God
through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe.
22 For Jews request a sign, and Greeks seek after wisdom;
23 but we preach Christ crucified, to the Jews a stumbling block and to the Greeks foolishness,
24 but to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God.
25 Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men, and the weakness of God is stronger than men.

 

[The Liturgist]

The apostolic doctrines found in the New Testament are the latest teachings I study.
If early church fathers used secular philosophy to deepen their understanding,
I am relieved to have never studied their writings.
Colossians 2:8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the
tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.

Forgive me, but that is alogical, and Christ is the Logos. To reject any study of the history of the early church, or the writings of theologians like Irenaeus, who popularized the four canonical Gospels (prior to that, in much of Christendom a Gospel Harmony called the Diatessaron, composed by Tatian, who later became a Gnostic heresiarch, was used, and in the Syriac Aramaic speaking churches, the Diatessaron remained in use until the Peshitta translation appeared in the fourth century), and Athanasius, who made the final cut of twenty seven books, and who also was the driving force at Nicea in defense of the Biblical doctrine of the divinity of Christ as the uncreated, only begotten Son of one essence with the Father, and who is also consubstantial with us, just makes no sense at all.

If it hadn’t been for the early church fathers, our new Testament might consist of the Gospel of Mary, the Gospel of Phillip, the Gospel of Thomas and the Gospel of Truth, with the epistles consisting of 1 Barnabas, the Tripartite Tractate, the Pistis Sophia and the Acts of Thomas. These works all claimed to be the authentic writings of the Apostles, and it took the early church fathers, who either knew them or were catechized by early generations of Christians, to identify what was authentic and what was spurious.

[quotej

Can you provide a scripture that identifies the cross as the tree of life?
Galatians 3:
13 Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us (for it is written, Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree,
14 that the blessing of Abraham might come upon the Gentiles in Christ Jesus, that we might receive
the promise of the Spirit through faith.[/QUOTE]

Ironically, you just quoted some of it. The Tree of Life was a blessing until the expulsion from Paradise, when it became a curse, which Christ by trampling down death by death turned once more into a precious, life-giving blessing for the entire world.

Indeed we can say, and most theologians do say, that the Tree of Life is a prophecy of the Cross and that Christ is the New Adam.

This will become as clear as day if you read sacred scripture exegetically and studied theology, especially Patristic Theology, which is becoming any Nicene Christian minister. I am assuming you are minister of a church that follows the Nicene Creed and accepts the doctrine of the Holy Trinity.

 

[The Liturgist]

Crucified Christ [the seed of Abraham] The Power and Wisdom of God
1 Corinthians 1:
21 For since, in the wisdom of God, the world through wisdom did not know God, it pleased God
through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe.
22 For Jews request a sign, and Greeks seek after wisdom;
23 but we preach Christ crucified, to the Jews a stumbling block and to the Greeks foolishness,
24 but to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God.
25 Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men, and the weakness of God is stronger than men.

Who are you talking to? We are all familiar with this scripture.

 

[Mr. M]

Forgive me, but that is alogical, and Christ is the Logos.

Is this some sort of word association? Christ is logos, therefore Christ is logic?
The Son Is The Logos, The Christ is the seed of Abraham.
Galatians 3:
15 Brethren, I speak in the manner of men:though only a man’s covenant, yet confirmed,
no one annuls or adds to it.
16 Now to Abraham and his Seed were the promises made. He does not say, and to seeds,
as of many, but as of one, “And to your Seed,” who is Christ.

The Christ Is The Promise and The Oath of God made to Abraham.

2 Corinthians 5:16 Therefore, from now on, we regard no one according to the flesh.
Even though we have known Christ according to the flesh, yet now we know no longer.

The Son of God is not simply "The Logos', He is logos theos.
While this may be translated Word of God or Word was God,
there is a bit more to that, right?
The Logos is not simply 'what' God said, it is the intent behind the words.
Not what He said, what He meant. His purpose, the expression of His Will.
Jesus Christ is what God intended, and is therefore Truth. For the one who
said "Thy Word is Truth", also said "I Am the Truth". Jesus Christ, therefore,
is what God intended, as it is written:

Revelation 4:11 You are worthy, O Lord, To receive glory and honor and power;
For You created all things, and by Your will they exist and were created.

Paul describes The Son as The Logos Theos
Colossians 1:
15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
16 For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible
and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were
created through Him and for Him.
17 And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist.
18 And He is the head of the body, the church, who is the beginning, the firstborn from
the dead, that in all things He may have the preeminence.

Therefore, the Son of God can boldly proclaim:
Revelation 22:13 I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End,
the First and the Last.

 

[Mr. M]

Who are you talking to? We are all familiar with this scripture.

Just trying to further elaborate on the actual topic of the thread.
To review, from post#1 (the OP)
1 Corinthians 1:
17 For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel, not with
wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of no effect.
18 For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing,
but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.
19 For it is written: I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and bring to nothing
the understanding of the prudent.
20 Where is the wise? Where is the scribe? Where is the disputer of this age?
Has not God made the wisdom of this world foolish?

Continuing on for more context

Crucified Christ [the seed of Abraham] The Power and Wisdom of God
1 Corinthians 1:
21 For since, in the wisdom of God, the world through wisdom did not know God, it pleased God
through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe.
22 For Jews request a sign, and Greeks seek after wisdom;
23 but we preach Christ crucified, to the Jews a stumbling block and to the Greeks foolishness,
24 but to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God.
25 Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men, and the weakness of God is stronger than men.

Therefore, the topic as established in the primary proof text, Paul's teaching in 1 Corinthians 1:
Wisdom that is not from God renders the Cross of no effect (voids its power)
Frankly, I am not interested in how logical you think it is to study early church writings.
We are able to comprehend what Paul and other Bible writings are directing us towards
as True Wisdom from Above (James 3)
If you have found value in your studies, that is fine. I am unconvinced that I need that background
to comprehend what Paul is teaching here. Your responses have shed little light on this topic.

 

[The Liturgist]

Is this some sort of word association? Christ is logos, therefore Christ is logic?
The Son Is The Logos, The Christ is the seed of Abraham.

No, its basic Greek. A minister ought to know the meaning of Logos; it means Word, and Reason. Therefore something which is illogical or unreasonable is alogoi in Greek. It is correct to say that Jesus Christ is the incarnation of God, and is the Truth, the Way and the Light, and Truth depends upon logic and reason.

Galatians 3:
15 Brethren, I speak in the manner of men:though only a man’s covenant, yet confirmed,
no one annuls or adds to it.
16 Now to Abraham and his Seed were the promises made. He does not say, and to seeds,
as of many, but as of one, “And to your Seed,” who is Christ.

The Christ Is The Promise and The Oath of God made to Abraham.

2 Corinthians 5:16 Therefore, from now on, we regard no one according to the flesh.
Even though we have known Christ according to the flesh, yet now we know no longer.

The Son of God is not simply "The Logos', He is logos theos.
While this may be translated Word of God or Word was God,
there is a bit more to that, right?
The Logos is not simply 'what' God said, it is the intent behind the words.
Not what He said, what He meant. His purpose, the expression of His Will.
Jesus Christ is what God intended, and is therefore Truth. For the one who
said "Thy Word is Truth", also said "I Am the Truth". Jesus Christ, therefore,
is what God intended, as it is written:

Revelation 4:11 You are worthy, O Lord, To receive glory and honor and power;
For You created all things, and by Your will they exist and were created.

Paul describes The Son as The Logos Theos
Colossians 1:
15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
16 For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible
and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were
created through Him and for Him.
17 And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist.
18 And He is the head of the body, the church, who is the beginning, the firstborn from
the dead, that in all things He may have the preeminence.

Therefore, the Son of God can boldly proclaim:
Revelation 22:13 I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End,
the First and the Last.

We all agree that Jesus Christ is God the Son, the Second Person of the Holy Trinity. What leaves me dumbfounded is that you, as a minister of the Gospel, haven’t studied or been taught the reasons why we worship Jesus Christ as the incarnate Word of God, because the process by which we arrived at the 27 book New Testament canon, and the process by which the Apostolic faith defeated the heresies, especially Arianism, which denied the deity of God and was the state religion of the Eastern Roman Empire from the death of Constantine until the 380s, a period of 50 years, is nothing short of a Holy Miracle. And in studying how the faith came to be passed down to us, one learns of the witness of the Christian martyrs and confessors over the centuries, tortured and/or killed by Roman Pagans, Hindus, Buddhists, Muslims and Communists, but whose death was holy, glorious and salvific, following the path and the commandments of our Lord. And you would see how God kept His promise that the Gates of Hell would not prevail against His Church (by which I mean the entire Christian church, not a particular denomination).

I do have three questions, if you will forgive my curiosity: What church are you a minister of? Where did you undergo your formation as a minister? And who ordained you?

 

[Mr. M]

Truth depends upon logic and reason.

I disagree. Truth is the Spirit of the Lord, and is spiritually discerned. Where is your logic
and reasoning in this?
1 Corinthians 2:
10 But God has revealed to us through His Spirit. For the Spirit searches all things, yes,
the deep things of God.
11 For what man knows the things of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him?
Even so no one knows the things of God except the Spirit of God.
12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God,
that we might know the things that have been freely given to us by God.
13 These things we also speak, not in words which man’s wisdom teaches but which the
Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
14 But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness
to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
15 But he who is spiritual judges all things, yet he himself is judged by no one.
16 For “who has known the mind of the Lord that he may instruct Him?”
But we have the mind of Christ.

You said:

Christ is the Logos.

You are wrong. The Son of God is the Logos Theos. The Christ is the seed of Abraham. Not
the same thing at all. Christ became when The Lord made the Promise. I will not indulge
any of your impertinent (not curiosity) questions. I am not impressed by your defense of
logic and reason.
If the crucifixion, resurrection and ascension seems logical or reasonable to you and I, it is
only because we have been born again by the Spirit and have the mind of Christ.
If you have any more comments, please direct them to the many scriptures that were provided
in the OP#1. You have pushed the thread way off topic by directing the discussion towards the
value of early church writings and history. As I have already said more than once, there are
dedicated forums for such discussions. I am not interested, and you are now rudely off topic.

 

[Mr. M]

No, its basic Greek. A minister ought to know the meaning of Logos; it means Word, and Reason. Therefore something which is illogical or unreasonable is alogoi in Greek. It is correct to say that Jesus Christ is the incarnation of God, and is the Truth, the Way and the Light, and Truth depends upon logic and reason.

I have already replied to your scholarly understanding of logos. Lets disagree if necessary.
What God Intended?

 

[public hermit]

Crucified Christ [the seed of Abraham] The Power and Wisdom of God
1 Corinthians 1:
21 For since, in the wisdom of God, the world through wisdom did not know God, it pleased God
through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe.
22 For Jews request a sign, and Greeks seek after wisdom;
23 but we preach Christ crucified, to the Jews a stumbling block and to the Greeks foolishness,
24 but to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God.
25 Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men, and the weakness of God is stronger than men.

Forgive me if you've already covered this, I did go through the thread but must not have seen it. How do you define "worldly wisdom"?

I get your point if you're saying the revelation of Jesus Christ isn't discovered by the usual means that we use to observe and learn and discover. Revelation is revealed, not found. With that, I agree. However, that doesn't entail that the usual ways we learn and discover, using observation-logic-reason, are hence useless in deepening our understanding of what has been revealed. Does that make sense?

This is our Lord's world. He is the Logos through whom all things exist. It is because of him that the world has an observable order. It's because of him that we have minds that recognize patterns, both logical and empirical, and are able to find cause and reason in the world. He is why we can even function in the world. All this according to scripture. Colossians 1:15-17; John 1:1-5

So, I get the impression you want to reject human reason, per se, but that impression might not be accurate. Could you clarify what you mean by worldly wisdom, and specifically why it is an issue?

 

[Mr. M]

Forgive me if you've already covered this, I did go through the thread but must not have seen it. How do you define "worldly wisdom"?

I get your point if you're saying the revelation of Jesus Christ isn't discovered by the usual means that we use to observe and learn and discover. Revelation is revealed, not found. With that, I agree. However, that doesn't entail that the usual ways we learn and discover, using observation-logic-reason, are hence useless in deepening our understanding of what has been revealed. Does that make sense?

This is our Lord's world. He is the Logos through whom all things exist. It is because of him that the world has an observable order. It's because of him that we have minds that recognize patterns, both logical and empirical, and are able to find cause and reason in the world. He is why we can even function in the world. All this according to scripture. Colossians 1:15-17; John 1:1-5

So, I get the impression you want to reject human reason, per se, but that impression might not be accurate. Could you clarify what you mean by worldly wisdom, and specifically why it is an issue?

I just happened to have elaborated further on this a few minutes ago, if you scroll up to #27.
I agree with your points. I do not think that Paul is rejecting human reason, so much as saying
that we must be born again and have the mind of Christ to comprehend the full testimony of scripture. The Gospel itself, must be presented in complete simplicity to the lost for that very reason.
Galatians 1:
8 But even if we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel to you than what we have preached to you, let him be accursed.
9 As we have said before, so now I say again, if anyone preaches any other gospel to you than what you have received, let him be accursed.

Before having their minds enlightened by the Spirit, they cannot receive Spiritual Truth into their spirit, where any meaningful change takes place.
For this reason I reject apologetics as a means of reaching the lost. If it helps some in discipleship,
that's fine, but as always, the Lord must direct the actions.

1 Corinthians 12:3. Therefore I make known to you that no one speaking by the Spirit of God calls Jesus accursed, and no one can say that Jesus is Lord except by the Holy Spirit.

I apologize for the length of this response, but you raised good points, and I wanted to be perhaps
too thorough for you, but maybe not others.

 

[public hermit]

For this reason I reject apologetics as a means of reaching the lost. If it helps some in discipleship,
that's fine, but as always, the Lord must direct the actions.

Ah, thank you. That does clarify. I see I wasn't quite following you, even though I did see the early exchange on apologetics.

I have some sympathy with this. I find apologetics as a tool for evangelism less than helpful, usually. However, there are some that I know who came to faith partly because apologetics clarified some things for them. Perhaps they were more receptive? Obviously, I would agree that the Holy Spirit did the heavy lifting, so to speak. But some people's journey included deep consideration that apologetics can aid.

Having said all that, I concur that using apologetics as a primary means, instead of the proclamation, is wrong headed.

 

[Mr. M]

Ah, thank you. That does clarify. I see I wasn't quite following you, even though I did see the early exchange on apologetics.

I have some sympathy with this. I find apologetics as a tool for evangelism less than helpful, usually. However, there are some that I know who came to faith partly because apologetics clarified some things for them. Perhaps they were more receptive? Obviously, I would agree that the Holy Spirit did the heavy lifting, so to speak. But some people's journey included deep consideration that apologetics can aid.

Having said all that, I concur that using apologetics as a primary means, instead of the proclamation, is wrong headed.

We don't always know the background of everyone we share the Message. Some may have grown
up in a church and received way more of the Spirit than they will ever know in this life. Because
of this, apologetics could certainly help "lead them back to the flock".
Otherwise, John 3:16 and the witness of the Holy Spirit is all you need, since it is the Holy Spirit that convicts to repentance, and I know that He witnesses to the glory of the Son. Paul speaks of
"simplicity and godly sincerity". Regardless of your words, most people will detect a lack of
sincerity. Serve Him in "the Joy of the Lord", and He will be your Strength.

 

[HappyHope]

Please include scriptural references in your response.
1 Corinthians 1:
17 For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel, not with
wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of no effect.
18 For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing,
but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.

Christian Sophistry Will Perish
19 For it is written: I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and bring to nothing
the understanding of the prudent.
20 Where is the wise? Where is the scribe? Where is the disputer of this age?
Has not God made the wisdom of this world foolish?

Traditions Of Man Reject Truth for Worldly Wisdom
Mark 7:9 And he said unto them, Full well you reject the commandment of God,
that you may keep your own tradition.
Luke 7:
29 And when all the people heard Him, even the tax collectors justified God,
having been baptized with the baptism of John.
30 But the Pharisees and lawyers rejected the will of God for themselves, not
having been baptized by him.

Hear and Speak by the Spirit of Truth
Luke 10:16 He who hears you hears Me, he who rejects you rejects Me, and he who
rejects Me rejects Him who sent Me.
John 12:48 He who rejects Me, and does not receive My words, has that which judges
him; the word that I have spoken will judge him on the last day.

1 Timothy 5:12 Having damnation, because they have cast off their first faith.

1 Thessalonians 4:8 Therefore he who rejects this does not reject man, but God,
who has also given us His Holy Spirit.

The Holy Spirit Of Truth
John 16:
13 However, when He, the Spirit of truth, has come, He will guide you into all truth;
for He will not speak on His own authority, but whatever He hears He will speak; and
He will tell you things to come.
14 He will glorify Me, for He will take what is Mine and declare it to you.
15 All things that the Father has are Mine. Therefore I said that He will take of Mine
and declare to you.

Receive Wisdom From Above
John 3:27 John answered and said, A man can receive nothing unless it has been given
to him from heaven.

James 3:
13 Who is wise and understanding among you? Let him show by good conduct that
his works are done in the meekness of wisdom.
14 But if you have bitter envy and self-seeking in your hearts, do not boast and lie
against the truth.
15 This wisdom does not descend from above, but is earthly, sensual, demonic.
16 For where envy and self-seeking exist, confusion and every evil thing are there.
17 But the wisdom that is from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, willing
to yield, full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality and without hypocrisy.

1 Corinthians 11:23 For I received from the Lord that which I also delivered to you...

I was just listening to a Christian apologetics book by James K. A. Smith inspired by Charles Taylor’s writings.

Taylor makes a compelling case in line with your Scriptural point. He goes into layered specifics reaching from a historical level all the way to us today. He kind of maps out how American Christian culture and secular culture specifically has gotten off track and aligned with humanism in ways that minimize the transcendent.

In my mind, this map shows how Jesus and the cross have “lost power.” Some of the “wisdom” that helped lead away from a realistic view of the power, presence, and proper place of God in life are rooted in accepted philosophies centered on human prosperity and harmony. These things aren’t bad unless it becomes human-centered “we the people” mottos mixed with light sprinkles of theism. Human wisdom cancels itself out by its foundational roots giving and taking away power at will regardless of reality.

People want to create their own values and meaning but real meaning is revealed through Christ and his work. I feel this plays out in church today when Christians minimize powerful essentials to fit whatever standards they prefer or to fit the wisdom of the day.

 

[The Liturgist]

The Son of God is the Logos Theos. The Christ is the seed of Abraham. Not
the same thing at all. Christ became when The Lord made the Promise.

Wait, what now? That sounds like a seriously heterodox Christology. Do you accept the Nicene Creed? Because at best, what you wrote sounds like full-on Nestorianism, which is nominally compatible with Nicene Christianity, but frankly, I have never heard that formulation before, so I have to ask.

In the Nicene Creed, we confess the Christology I have posted below, which if you do share, Ive got to ask you how your statement reconciles with it, because like I said, I have never heard a Christological formulation like what you just employed.

Nicene Christology:
We believe in one God, the Father Almighty ....

And in ONE Lord Jesus Christ, (Acts 11:17)
the Son of God, (Mathew 14:33; 16:16)
the Only-Begotten, (John 1:18; 3:16)
Begotten of the Father before all ages. (John 1:2)
Light of Light; (Psalm 27:1; John 8:12; Matthew 17:2,5)
True God of True God; (John 17:1-5)
Begotten, not made; (John 1:18)
of one essence with the Father (John 10:30)
by whom all things were made; (Hebrews 1:1-2)
Who for us men and for our salvation (1Timothy 2:4-5)
came down from Heaven, (John 6:33,35)
and was incarnate of the Holy Spirit and the Virgin Mary, (Luke 1:35)
and became man. (John 1:14)
And was crucified for us (Mark 15:25; 1Cointhians 15:3)
under Pontius Pilate, (John 19:6)
and suffered, (Mark 8:31)
and was buried. (Luke 23:53; 1Corinthians 15:4)
And the third day He rose again, according to the Scriptures. (Luke 24:1 1Corinthians 15:4)
And ascended into Heaven, (Luke 24:51; Acts 1:10)
and sits at the right hand of the Father. (Mark 16:19; Acts 7:55)
And He shall come again with glory (Matthew 24:27)
to judge the living and the dead; (Acts 10:42; 2Timothy 4:1)
whose Kingdom shall have no end. (2 Peter 1:11)

And in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the Giver of Life...

 

[Mr. M]

Wait, what now? That sounds like a seriously heterodox Christology. Do you accept the Nicene Creed? Because at best, what you wrote sounds like full-on Nestorianism, which is nominally compatible with Nicene Christianity, but frankly, I have never heard that formulation before, so I have to ask.

What I stated about Christ is supported by this scripture reference.
Galatians 3:
15 Brethren, I speak in the manner of men: Though only a man’s covenant, yet confirmed,
no one annuls or adds to it.
16 Now to Abraham and his Seed were the promises made. He does not say, “And to seeds,”
as of many, but as of one, “And to your Seed,” who is Christ.....
26 For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus.
27 For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor
female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.
29 And if you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.

And in ONE Lord Jesus Christ, (Acts 11:17)
the Son of God, (Mathew 14:33; 16:16)
the Only-Begotten, (John 1:18; 3:16)
Begotten of the Father before all ages. (John 1:2)
Light of Light; (Psalm 27:1; John 8:12; Matthew 17:2,5)
True God of True God; (John 17:1-5)
Begotten, not made; (John 1:18)
of one essence with the Father (John 10:30)
by whom all things were made; (Hebrews 1:1-2)
Who for us men and for our salvation (1Timothy 2:4-5)
came down from Heaven, (John 6:33,35)
and was incarnate of the Holy Spirit and the Virgin Mary, (Luke 1:35)
and became man. (John 1:14)
And was crucified for us (Mark 15:25; 1Cointhians 15:3)
under Pontius Pilate, (John 19:6)
and suffered, (Mark 8:31)
and was buried. (Luke 23:53; 1Corinthians 15:4)
And the third day He rose again, according to the Scriptures. (Luke 24:1 1Corinthians 15:4)
And ascended into Heaven, (Luke 24:51; Acts 1:10)
and sits at the right hand of the Father. (Mark 16:19; Acts 7:55)
And He shall come again with glory (Matthew 24:27)
to judge the living and the dead; (Acts 10:42; 2Timothy 4:1)
whose Kingdom shall have no end. (2 Peter 1:11)

I believe all of this to be true of the Son of God.
Born into flesh, the man who became known as Jesus of Nazareth.
To call it "Christology" was by man's decision. Let me continue.
Romans 1:
3 concerning His Son Jesus Christ our Lord, who was born of the seed of David
according to the flesh,
4 and declared to be the Son of God with power according to the Spirit of holiness,
by the resurrection from the dead.

He took on Christ to perfect that Spirit which was promised for us by His Father to
Abraham, and backed the promise with an oath.

Hebrews 2:16 For verily He took not on Him the nature of angels; but He took on Him
the seed of Abraham.
The seed of Abraham=Christ, as already established.
John 2:
32 And John bore witness, saying, I saw the Spirit descending from heaven like a dove,
and He remained upon Him.
33 I did not know Him, but He who sent me to baptize with water said to me, Upon whom
you see the Spirit descending, and remaining on Him, this is He who baptizes with the Holy Spirit.
34 And I have seen and testified that this is the Son of God.

Hebrews 6:
13 For when God made a promise to Abraham, because He could swear by no one greater,
He swore by Himself,
14 saying, Surely blessing I will bless you, and multiplying I will multiply you.
15 And so, after he had patiently endured, he obtained the promise.
16 For men indeed swear by the greater, and an oath for confirmation is for them an end of
all dispute.
17 Thus God, determining to show more abundantly to the heirs of promise the immutability
of His counsel, confirmed it by an oath,
18 that by two immutable things, in which it is impossible for God to lie, we might have strong consolation, who have fled for refuge to lay hold of the hope set before us.

And now a simple question from this statement.

Hebrews 5:
8 though He was a Son, yet He learned obedience by the things which He suffered.
9 And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him.

So who was perfected by obedience, even unto death on the cross, The Son of God (deity),
Or the seed of Abraham, the Christ or Messiah.??? The Truth is necessary to understand this:

Hebrews 12:
22 But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem,
to an innumerable company of angels,
23 to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are registered in heaven, to God
the Judge of all, to the Spirit of just men made perfect

And Who is the Spirit of Just Men? Messiah is the Spirit of Just Men made perfect on the cross.

To assign all of the attributes of the Son of God to Jesus (the Son of Man), or to Christ (the seed
of Abraham) is inappropriate. As I said, I believe everything the Creed says about the Son of God.

 

[The Liturgist]

What I stated about Christ is supported by this scripture reference.
Galatians 3:
15 Brethren, I speak in the manner of men: Though only a man’s covenant, yet confirmed,
no one annuls or adds to it.
16 Now to Abraham and his Seed were the promises made. He does not say, “And to seeds,”
as of many, but as of one, “And to your Seed,” who is Christ.....
26 For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus.
27 For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor
female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.
29 And if you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.


I believe all of this to be true of the Son of God.
Born into flesh, the man who became known as Jesus of Nazareth.
To call it "Christology" was by man's decision. Let me continue.
Romans 1:
3 concerning His Son Jesus Christ our Lord, who was born of the seed of David
according to the flesh,
4 and declared to be the Son of God with power according to the Spirit of holiness,
by the resurrection from the dead.

He took on Christ to perfect that Spirit which was promised for us by His Father to
Abraham, and backed the promise with an oath.

Hebrews 2:16 For verily He took not on Him the nature of angels; but He took on Him
the seed of Abraham.
The seed of Abraham=Christ, as already established.
John 2:
32 And John bore witness, saying, I saw the Spirit descending from heaven like a dove,
and He remained upon Him.
33 I did not know Him, but He who sent me to baptize with water said to me, Upon whom
you see the Spirit descending, and remaining on Him, this is He who baptizes with the Holy Spirit.
34 And I have seen and testified that this is the Son of God.

Hebrews 6:
13 For when God made a promise to Abraham, because He could swear by no one greater,
He swore by Himself,
14 saying, Surely blessing I will bless you, and multiplying I will multiply you.
15 And so, after he had patiently endured, he obtained the promise.
16 For men indeed swear by the greater, and an oath for confirmation is for them an end of
all dispute.
17 Thus God, determining to show more abundantly to the heirs of promise the immutability
of His counsel, confirmed it by an oath,
18 that by two immutable things, in which it is impossible for God to lie, we might have strong consolation, who have fled for refuge to lay hold of the hope set before us.

And now a simple question from this statement.

Hebrews 5:
8 though He was a Son, yet He learned obedience by the things which He suffered.
9 And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him.

So who was perfected by obedience, even unto death on the cross, The Son of God (deity),
Or the seed of Abraham, the Christ or Messiah.??? The Truth is necessary to understand this:

Hebrews 12:
22 But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem,
to an innumerable company of angels,
23 to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are registered in heaven, to God
the Judge of all, to the Spirit of just men made perfect

And Who is the Spirit of Just Men? Messiah is the Spirit of Just Men made perfect on the cross.

To assign all of the attributes of the Son of God to Jesus (the Son of Man), or to Christ (the seed
of Abraham) is inappropriate. As I said, I believe everything the Creed says about the Son of God.

Then you are contradicting yourself, because the Creed says that Jesus Christ is of one essence with the Father, and Very God of Very God. The Christology you are advancing goes beyond Nestorianism and crosses into Adoptionism, as far as I can tell.

 

[Mr. M]

you are advancing goes beyond Nestorianism and crosses into Adoptionism, as far as I can tell.

I am not advancing anything. I posted scriptures that clearly define the relationship between
The Son of God, and the Spirit of Messiah. I am not interested in these classifications, nor am
I the least bit familiar. If you would like to direct my attention to the particular verses and my
error in comprehending them, please do.

Then you are contradicting yourself, because the Creed says that Jesus Christ is of one essence with the Father, and Very God of Very God

I said nothing to contradict the nature of the Son, the only begotten of to the Father. I merely
pointed out His relationship to the Spirit of Messiah. The son of man, Jesus of Nazareth is spoken of
as the second Adam (man). The Son of God existed before the foundation of the world and
participated in Creation.
The Son of God John 1:1-4.
Messiah =seed of Abraham.
You have not answered to any of the scriptures I posted that elaborates on this, you just insist on
throwing things at me from church traditions. Either discuss the scriptures, or please drop it. As
I said, there are dedicated forums to discuss such things. You haven't even responded to the topic
of the thread yet! If you would go back to post #1 and reconsider those verses, and direct your responses there, that would be edifying and on topic. Thanks, and prayers for your hospital outreach.
You have the key of David, so use it to open some hospital doors! Isaiah 22:22