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Featured Worldly Wisdom Renders The Cross Powerless

Discussion in 'General Theology' started by Minister Monardo, Feb 2, 2021.

  1. Minister Monardo

    Minister Monardo Well-Known Member Supporter

    United States
    Please include scriptural references in your response.
    1 Corinthians 1:
    For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel, not with
    wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of no effect.
    For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing,
    but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.

    Christian Sophistry Will Perish
    19 For it is written: I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and bring to nothing
    the understanding of the prudent.
    20 Where is the wise? Where is the scribe? Where is the disputer of this age?
    Has not God made the wisdom of this world foolish?

    Traditions Of Man Reject Truth for Worldly Wisdom
    Mark 7:9 And he said unto them, Full well you reject the commandment of God,
    that you may keep your own tradition.
    Luke 7:
    And when all the people heard Him, even the tax collectors justified God,
    having been baptized with the baptism of John.
    30 But the Pharisees and lawyers rejected the will of God for themselves, not
    having been baptized by him.

    Hear and Speak by the Spirit of Truth
    Luke 10:16 He who hears you hears Me, he who rejects you rejects Me, and he who
    rejects Me rejects Him who sent Me.

    John 12:48 He who rejects Me, and does not receive My words, has that which judges
    him; the word that I have spoken will judge him on the last day.

    1 Timothy 5:12 Having damnation, because they have cast off their first faith.

    1 Thessalonians 4:8 Therefore he who rejects this does not reject man, but God,
    who has also given us His Holy Spirit.

    The Holy Spirit Of Truth
    John 16:
    However, when He, the Spirit of truth, has come, He will guide you into all truth;
    for He will not speak on His own authority, but whatever He hears He will speak; and
    He will tell you things to come.

    14 He will glorify Me, for He will take what is Mine and declare it to you.
    15 All things that the Father has are Mine. Therefore I said that He will take of Mine
    and declare to you.

    Receive Wisdom From Above
    John 3:27 John answered and said, A man can receive nothing unless it has been given
    to him from heaven.

    James 3:
    Who is wise and understanding among you? Let him show by good conduct that
    his works are done in the meekness of wisdom.
    14 But if you have bitter envy and self-seeking in your hearts, do not boast and lie
    against the truth.
    15 This wisdom does not descend from above, but is earthly, sensual, demonic.
    16 For where envy and self-seeking exist, confusion and every evil thing are there.
    17 But the wisdom that is from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, willing
    to yield, full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality and without hypocrisy.

    1 Corinthians 11:23 For I received from the Lord that which I also delivered to you...
    Last edited: Feb 3, 2021
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  2. GDL

    GDL Well-Known Member

    United States
    Logic And Reasoning Render The Cross Powerless to some.

  3. mlepfitjw

    mlepfitjw May you be blessed!

    United States
    Minister, here are you Some more scripture about faith, endurance, troubles, wisdom, double-mindedness:

    James 1: 2 Dear brothers and sisters, when troubles of any kind come your way, consider it an opportunity for great joy. 3 For you know that when your faith is tested, your endurance has a chance to grow. 4 So let it grow, for when your endurance is fully developed, you will be perfect and complete, needing nothing.

    5 If you need wisdom, ask our generous God, and he will give it to you. He will not rebuke you for asking. 6 But when you ask him, be sure that your faith is in God alone. Do not waver, for a person with divided loyalty is as unsettled as a wave of the sea that is blown and tossed by the wind. 7 Such people should not expect to receive anything from the Lord. 8 Their loyalty is divided between God and the world, and they are unstable in everything they do.

    You can always ask for wisdom from God if we believe and trust in him, that can be about any type of situation, and also understanding scriptures.
  4. Minister Monardo

    Minister Monardo Well-Known Member Supporter

    United States
    For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness
    of men who hold the truth in unrighteousness; Romans 1:18
    and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive
    the love of the truth, that they might be saved
    . 2 Thessalonians 2:10.
  5. Hawkins

    Hawkins Member Supporter

    It is a relativity. Most intelligent humans are far less intelligent as Satan. They can easily be fooled. So intelligence is not a reliable mean for humans to make a decision affecting their life. It is not a verse to defy logic itself though.
    • Agree Agree x 1
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  6. Minister Monardo

    Minister Monardo Well-Known Member Supporter

    United States
    Several good points to consider for sure.
    Here is an example of the Word defying logic.

    Matthew 16:19 And I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind
    on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.

    Makes sense to me, but I am born from above and have the faith to not only believe the Word,
    but to exercise the authority given to me in Christ. Some would call this foolish, or childish.
    Cool by me.
    Thanks for responding, good thoughts.
  7. GDL

    GDL Well-Known Member

    United States
    Your point, please? I'm working to not assume.

    My point was that we don't throw logic & reasoning out. Some have written fairly extensively how they came to the faith via apologetics they could reason through. 1 Peter 3:15 comes to mind.
  8. bling

    bling Regular Member Supporter

    Paul uses the very best logic and reasoning in Romans to proof under Christianity, Jewish Christians and Gentile Christians are equal and should be in full fellowship. This Romans example of the use of logic is even used in secular universities philosophy classes.

    Yes, human wisdom and knowledge like we see the Pharisees had, allowed them to avoid the weightier matters of the Law and not recognize Jesus.

    What happened with Jesus going through severe torture, humiliation and being murdered may be poorly understood by Christians today and not just non-Christians. Atonement is something easier understood through experiencing it them explaining it.
  9. Minister Monardo

    Minister Monardo Well-Known Member Supporter

    United States
    Good questions.
    I highlighted in both of the verses I quoted to lead to Truth, which comes from a living
    with the Lord, the Spirit of Truth. From the OP#1
    Does apologetics convict someone of sin?
    Or by reasoning convinces to belief in the existence of God?

    John 16:8 And when He (the Holy Spirit) has come, He will convict the world of sin,
    and of righteousness, and of judgment:

    1 Peter 3:15 But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts, and always be ready to give a defense
    to everyone who asks you a reason[logos] for the hope that is in you, with meekness and fear.

    This verse has nothing to do with apologetics.
    Peter is speaking of the testimony of our experiences in Christ that builds up our faith.
    As it is written:

    Revelation 12:11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word[logos]
    of their testimony, and they did not love their lives to the death.

    I am not speaking against apologetics, but I do not employ them.
  10. Minister Monardo

    Minister Monardo Well-Known Member Supporter

    United States
    Agreed. But only those born from above would accept it!
    1 Corinthians 2:
    These things we also speak, not in words which man’s wisdom teaches but which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
    14 But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness
    to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

    The perfect example is what occurred on the Areopagus.
    Acts 17:
    Now while Paul waited for them at Athens, his spirit was provoked within him when he saw that the city was given over to idols.
    17 Therefore he reasoned in the synagogue with the Jews and with the Gentile worshipers, and in the marketplace daily with those who happened to be there.
    18 Then certain Epicurean and Stoic philosophers encountered him. And some said, “What does this babbler want to say?” Others said, “He seems to be a proclaimer of foreign gods,” because
    he preached to them Jesus and the resurrection.

    Being raised from the dead did not seem very reasonable or logical to many of them!

    Acts 17:32 And when they heard of the resurrection of the dead, some mocked, while others said,
    “We will hear you again on this matter.
    33 So Paul departed from among them.
    34 However, some men joined him and believed, among them Dionysius the Areopagite, a woman
    named Damaris, and others with them.
  11. bling

    bling Regular Member Supporter

    Deity severely suffering a cruel torture, humiliation and murder, does not seem logical at all.

    Does God lack the Love to forgive, without needing Christ to go to the cross?

    If Jesus paid 100% for our sins what is there for God to forgive?

    What did you experience when you came to the realization that Christ suffered all this because you personally sinned and offered this huge ransom payment to you, to help you to fulfill your earthly objective?
  12. Minister Monardo

    Minister Monardo Well-Known Member Supporter

    United States
    Yes, that is right on topic.
    I have taken this quiz before so I am going to pass on that today.
  13. GDL

    GDL Well-Known Member

    United States
    Firstly, I didn't ask you any questions. I requested you clarify your point in using the Scriptures you used to respond to me. Thank you anyway for the compliment.

    So, again, will you clarify what you specifically mean pursuant to the 2 verses and your highlights?

    - Apologia certainly can be of use to explain sin. Are you changing the discussion to being "convicted" now? Is the work of the Spirit involved in all of this? Sure. Apart from Christ we can do nothing.
    - God has made His power & divinity know to all people through His creation that we can all observe and reason. He holds all accountable for understanding & doing this & coming to His intended conclusion (Rom1).

    - "logos" carries more than one meaning, as I'm sure you know by your quote of Rev2:11. And the logos in these verses is a message we speak. The message we speak in any given situation would be based upon the situation. Again, I'm not seeing clearly your point.
    - 1 Peter 3:15 has nothing to do with apologetics other than commanding apologetics be used.
    - Peter is clearly speaking of using apologetics re: our glorious future in Christ (our hope) in the face of hostility against us.

    - Both good and then bad since apologia is commanded. Actually, I'll bet you apply apologia frequently, just as you're commanded, to answer questions about the hope that is in you. I know you post about Faith in Christ frequently. I can't imagine you're not living this out daily in speaking or writing.
  14. Minister Monardo

    Minister Monardo Well-Known Member Supporter

    United States
    Just because apologia is commanded, and we profess our hope in Christ, doesn't mean that apologetics,
    at it is used in theology and academics applies.
    The offering the word of our testimony could easily come across as highly illogical or
    unreasonable, such as Paul speaking of the resurrection in Athens, and being scoffed at.
    The topic is taken from scripture, that worldly wisdom renders the power of the Gospel void.
    Therefore, if you want to apply apologetics, great care must be taken to not allow such worldly logic
    to come into play. This is addressed in Paul's letters, as he was constantly confronted by Greek ideas
    which were rooted in logic, and classic reasoning.
    Again, the topic is not apologetics and testimonies, it is reasoning and logic which are a direct
    path for worldly wisdom to enter your testimony. Again, telling others what Christ has done for me
    does not require me to be logical.
    The 15 passages I already posted in the OP#1 is about all I've got.
    Sometimes I feel like many responders just read the title. In this case, you wanted
    to defend logic and reasoning on the basis of apologetics. If you read the post#1,
    the scriptures quoted are the elaboration. Maybe if you asked how any of those scriptures
    were on topic, I would not have added two more.
    And I answered, they are about Truth.

    Since the topic is worldly wisdom rendering the cross powerless, and the preaching of the Cross in
    supposed to convict people to repentance and conversion, that would be a Yes.
  15. GDL

    GDL Well-Known Member

    United States
    Agree, that worldly wisdom does not comprehend the cross. I agree that's clear in Scripture.

    But you've changed the title of the thread, which I copied when I posted a response and added 2 words at the end:

    Seems you like to make changes midstream, as you did here, and when you changed to "conviction" from a discussion about logic & reasoning & thus my going to the example of apologia.

    You should rethink such practices. My comments in response to your original title stand.
  16. Minister Monardo

    Minister Monardo Well-Known Member Supporter

    United States
    So your response was to the title, and not the elaboration found in post#1. That's what I thought.
    You should rethink such practices. Why should I have to elaborate on a title, when the post#1
    develops and provides the scriptures for the topic?
    It was also clear in the OP, yet you asked for clarification. There is no need for you to underline
    worldly for me in your response, since that is on topic. You changed it to apologetics by responding
    to the title, not the post. I often change the title if people are misunderstanding the topic,
    which always occurs when post #1 is not read (in this case, there was a lot. not sorry).
    The idea of conviction is central to the scriptures quoted from Paul,
    so there was no change in topic, just title.

    Paul continues in chapter 2:
    1 Corinthians 2:
    And I, brethren, when I came to you, did not come with excellence of speech or of wisdom
    declaring to you the testimony of God.
    2 For I determined not to know anything among you except Jesus Christ and Him crucified.
    3 I was with you in weakness, in fear, and in much trembling.
    4 And my speech and my preaching were not with persuasive words of human wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power,
    5 that your faith should not be in the wisdom of men but in the power of God.
  17. GDL

    GDL Well-Known Member

    United States
    My response pertains to your playing games with this thread once you got approached on the topics of logic & reasoning you presented in the original title, to which I responded respectfully and on point.

    I'll bow out now and leave you to any more games you want to play. Maybe you'll learn to think through what you write before you write it, so you don't have to backpedal after you post your thinking that deserves to be questioned.

    Attempting to turn this into my problem reveals some personal issues you should consider.
  18. Minister Monardo

    Minister Monardo Well-Known Member Supporter

    United States
    The Title to a Thread is not the Topic. I saw a thread the other day entitled "Hot Potato".
    Spoiler Alert, it was not about potatoes. It did get my attention and I ended up reading the
    post, which is the topic, it is found under #1. For you to respond to the title and claim to be on
    point is simply false. Not a game, you were wrong, and you cannot receive correction.
    You are never responding respectfully if you did not bother reading the post. Not on topic,
    not on point.
    Maybe you will think to read it before you respond to it next time. Not a game, just proper protocol
    for responding to a thread. Find out what the person has to say rather than making comments about the title, before launching your defense of logic and reason, which was pointless. I did not backpedal at all,
    the fact that I had to explain conviction and the relation to the Cross was in answer to a comment
    of yours. I change titles when a get responses like yours, from people like you who respond to titles.
    The fact that you took the time to write your response demonstrates that it is in fact your problem.
    You know nothing at all to be speaking about personal issues, but it does speak to a failure of your logic
    and reasoning, since you presumed to have any effect by writing these comments. You should have
    bowed out a long time ago.
  19. The Liturgist

    The Liturgist Traditional Liturgical Christian

    United States
    Nope, no it doesn’t. The faithful Christian who believes can use secular philosophy to deepen understanding of the faith, and this is what the Church Fathers did.

    And the idea the precious and holy Cross, the very tree of life, could be rendered powerless is contrary to the Gospel.
  20. Minister Monardo

    Minister Monardo Well-Known Member Supporter

    United States
    The apostolic doctrines found in the New Testament are the latest teachings I study.
    If early church fathers used secular philosophy to deepen their understanding,
    I am relieved to have never studied their writings.

    Colossians 2:8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the
    tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.

    Can you provide a scripture that identifies the cross as the tree of life?
    Galatians 3:
    Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us (for it is written, Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree,
    14 that the blessing of Abraham might come upon the Gentiles in Christ Jesus, that we might receive
    the promise of the Spirit through faith.