World Mythologies: Have Religions evolved to become more Materialisic?

[Jane_the_Bane]

It's simple, really (but not easy):
A Christianity that does not feed the hungry, tend the sick, help the strangers and support the poor and downtrodden in any way possible is no Christianity at all. It's some weird inversion that puts the rich and well-fed on a pedestal and encourages people to be the kind of person who invests in an extra-large swimming pool and a high fence to keep the downtrodden out.

 

[Silmarien]

I watched a lecture on Youtube from a Yale professor of the New Testament, and there was an almost Buddhist on Jain disdain for the seemingly cyclical nature of conventional existence, absent in much of modern Christianity. This will sound strange, but I'm starting to detest Luther's conclusions. He domesticated Christianity. Whereas I think Jesus would agree far more with Marx's conclusions, "Other philosophers have merely interpreted the world, but the whole point is to change it". The element of transformation was heavily muted in favor of just accepting Richard Dawkin's DNA-machine approach to life (Luther actually detested birth control for instance).

Which conclusions are you talking about in specific? Aside from the doctrine of Sola Fide, I'm not particularly familiar with Luther's thought.

 

[Jane_the_Bane]

Which conclusions are you talking about in specific? Aside from the doctrine of Sola Fide, I'm not particularly familiar with Luther's thought.

Luther's view on women was... complicated. On the one hand, some of his views were MUCH more egalitarian than those of his contemporaries, for example approving of giving them a full education. Also, the story of his marriage to Katharina von Bora is interesting: she proposed to him, and was valued as a debater as well as a wife.
On the other, he said things like "God gave women broad hips so they could sit down in the kitchen" or "girls grow up faster than boys because weeds grow more quickly than roses". He was also a BIG fan of the Pauline epistles, though not of the cult of celibacy expressed therein. He valued a cult of domesticity, similar to the Catholic duty to produce more Christians.

 

[Jonathan Walkerin]

I agree Asceticism is just the near opposite of materialism, practiced for centuries by western and Eastern Monks and Mystics of various schools. Aestheticism

Aestheticism sure sounds easier than ascetism. Still made me look up the definition so thanks for that.

 

[Temirlan]

Based on where we are in the era we're in, gotta wonder on the old mythologies (like the World Tree origin story) and think what they'd say on what has been done today in Western Christianity, in the name of Christ. Would folks in older eras say we were superior in our ethics - or would they say the natural world was always sacrificed for the sake of man?

We don't want a Prince Nuada moment where things come back from legend to haunt us...

And to be clear, for those who don't know, as I was watching the movie HellBoy II awhile back, it was interesting seeing the movie

(

)
​

What's interesting, of course, is that fans of Celtic mytholog will recognize the name of the film's principle villain, Prince Nuada, a character loosely modeled after an important figure in the ancient folklore of Ireland.

• -"'Hellboy' Taps Into Ancient Irish Folklore" ('Hellboy' Taps Into Ancient Irish Folklore )

And with the ancient folklore as a focus, it stands out to me that there are so many ways in which many ancient religions had a high regard for the environment being cared for - and later on, dualism led to ideas such as saying the spiritual world/soul was important and the environment didn't matter...unless one wanted the land/resources of the world for a selfish reason and thus talk happened on how others needed to give up land/resources to help with their soul - and then once the exchange/abuse happened and folks questioned, they were again condemned in the name of saying "The SOUL is all that matters."

But how we treat the world matters as well...

Abrahamic religions were created in a region of the world and at a time where caring for one's environment wasn't on the radar in any shape or form.

 

[Temirlan]

I watched a lecture on Youtube from a Yale professor of the New Testament, and there was an almost Buddhist on Jain disdain for the seemingly cyclical nature of conventional existence, absent in much of modern Christianity. This will sound strange, but I'm starting to detest Luther's conclusions. He domesticated Christianity. Whereas I think Jesus would agree far more with Marx's conclusions, "Other philosophers have merely interpreted the world, but the whole point is to change it". The element of transformation was heavily muted in favor of just accepting Richard Dawkin's DNA-machine approach to life (Luther actually detested birth control for instance).

Jesus was the world's first and purest communist

 

[Temirlan]

I think material culture (not materialist, but just the daily socio-economic reality created by technology, control over and understanding of nature and natural processes, food safety and accessibility, health, etc.) has an immediate impact on spirituality and religion.
In the past, nature was that huge, unknowable and scary quantity, constantly threatening survival with draughts, floods, wild animals, storms, fires, earthquakes, plagues, famines - you get the idea. The less we understood nature, the more brutal the deities worshiped. The earliest historically documented deities were virtually indistinguishable from demons, and the whole point of sacrifices and religion was to avert the kind of disasters I mentioned before. And even when the gods became *slightly* more benevolent (because the culture that created them had a somewhat stable relationship with nature), you could tell that this link was still there: ancient Egypt's prosperity depended on the regularity of the Nile's floods, for example. Accordingly, the most important aspect of its religion was Ma'at, or order.

We can also observe this in Christianity: when Europe was devastated by the sudden drop in temperature called the "Little Ice Age" (c. 1500-1800), Christians started to embrace a concept of deity best reflected by sermons like "Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God".

Contemporary American evangelism, with its "prosperity gospel", Trump worship, and general materialism is another such reflection of a material culture that's overfed, irresponsibly consumerist and obsessed with status symbols. But I don't think that's an inevitable development. It just so happens that the worst parts of American culture congeal into an ugly nightmare, and that also encompasses religious life.

This conclusion supports the idea that deities worshipped are in fact inflated versions by humans of themselves.

 

[FireDragon76]

Jesus was the world's first and purest communist

I wouldn't describe him as that, since he sought to persuade people rather than coerce them, for the most part, and his vision of the world was based on religious values rather than materialist metaphysics.

 

[Temirlan]

I wouldn't describe him as that, since he sought to persuade people rather than coerce them, for the most part, and his vision of the world was based on religious values rather than materialist metaphysics.

True. Not in that sense, though. Not a member of a communist party, sheesh. Someone who proposed a Utopical communal society without private property.

 

[FireDragon76]

True. Not in that sense, though. Not a member of a communist party, sheesh. Someone who proposed a Utopical communal society without private property.

Based on what I have read, Jesus was primarily rooted in the Jewish wisdom tradition, in that sense he was not a political philosopher, but something else altogether.

 

[Temirlan]

Based on what I have read, Jesus was primarily rooted in the Jewish wisdom tradition, in that sense he was not a political philosopher, but something else altogether.

True again. He was concerned not about the body, but the soul. His preaching about the society was in line with idealistic communism, nevertheless. Look at the first church commune described in Acts. Even a Soviet kolhoz or Israeli kibbutz aren't as communist.

 

[dlamberth]

.... for the most part, and his vision of the world was based on religious values rather than materialist metaphysics.

Maybe I'm being a bit picky, but when I think of Jewish Wisdom traditions, I don't think of "religious values". Rather I think of values that come from knowledge gained by inner spiritual experiences, which is in effect "mysticism". Wisdom traditions, as I've experienced it, are another way of saying "mysticism" with out saying the word "mysticism".

 

[FireDragon76]

Maybe I'm being a bit picky, but when I think of Jewish Wisdom traditions, I don't think of "religious values". Rather I think of values that come from knowledge gained by inner spiritual experiences. Wisdom traditions, as I've experienced it, are another way of saying "mysticism" with out saying the word "mysticism".

You could use the word "spiritual values", if you prefer.

The Jewish wisdom tradition is not necessarily mysticism, though I suppose potentially there is some overlap or blurriness in the boundaries, depending on what you consider mysticism to be.

It will not be possible to understand Jesus without understanding the religious milieu he came from, which has different concerns than east Asian religious traditions. Jesus was actually far more humanistic in his outlook than what we typically associate with mysticism: escape into transcendence through world-denial.

 

[Temirlan]

You could use the word "spiritual values", if you prefer.

The Jewish wisdom tradition is not necessarily mysticism, though I suppose potentially there is some overlap or blurriness in the boundaries, depending on what you consider mysticism to be.

It will not be possible to understand Jesus without understanding the religious milieu he came from, which has different concerns than east Asian religious traditions. Jesus was actually far more humanistic in his outlook than what we typically associate with mysticism: escape into transcendence through world-denial.

Many in the East consider Yeshua a full-blown mystic whose teaching was hijacked by the apostles and turned ino far more humanistic haMashiach-ism... The gospels edited, the epistles totally butchering his message etc. "The kingdom of God is within you" - their favourite quote of Jesus.

 

[dlamberth]

Jesus was actually far more humanistic in his outlook than what we typically associate with mysticism: escape into transcendence through world-denial.

I think here, we have a different understanding of the mind of Christ's reach into the mystery AND of mysticism as practiced by those of the Wisdom traditions.

 

[dlamberth]

Many in the East consider Yeshua a full-blown mystic whose teaching was hijacked by the apostles and turned ino far more humanistic ha-Mashiach-ism... The gospels edited, the epistles totally butchering his message etc. "The kingdom of God is within you" - their favourite quote of Jesus.

Another is when the sense of the animated living mystery is taken out of "Let there be Light".

 

[FireDragon76]

I think here, we have a different understanding of the mind of Christ's reach into the mystery AND of mysticism as practiced by those of the Wisdom traditions.

I'm afraid you may be making up your own Jesus then, one that most biblical scholars, liberal or conservative, would not recognize. Jesus was less interested in judging his followers by their contemplative abilities to achieve altered states of consciousness, than he is in how they have sought to make a difference in actual peoples lives. In that sense, Jesus is far away from New Age mysticism.

 

[Temirlan]

I'm afraid you may be making up your own Jesus then, one that most biblical scholars, liberal or conservative, would not recognize. Jesus was less interested in judging his followers by their contemplative abilities to achieve altered states of consciousness, than he is in how they have sought to make a difference in actual peoples lives. In that sense, Jesus is far away from New Age mysticism.

Altered state of consciouseness? Mysticism is about trying to discover your most true self, without external distortions. Pure consciouseness, not altered.

 

[dlamberth]

I'm afraid you may be making up your own Jesus then, one that most biblical scholars, liberal or conservative, would not recognize. Jesus was less interested in judging his followers by their contemplative abilities to achieve altered states of consciousness, than he is in how they have sought to make a difference in actual peoples lives. In that sense, Jesus is far away from New Age mysticism.

I don't understand where your judgment about contemplative abilities comes from. That's not what I'm talking about at all. And it's not New Age mysticism either that I'm pointing towards...what ever that is. I admit to being pretty bigoted when it comes to New Age thought. But I am very much into the Wisdom Traditions of several spiritual traditions, one of the main ones being Christianity. I'm not making stuff up at all. The question I'm looking at here though is more basic to the mind of Jesus. Where did He come up with His ideas? What was He looking at for His Wisdom that's been passed on to us?