Works, The Law, and Works of the Law

[HARK!]

(CLV) Ja 2:24
You see that by works a man is being justified, and not by faith only.

James, brother of Yahshua, of the inner circle of the Apostles, purported the head of the ecclessia after Yahshua's ascension, claims that works play a part in our justification, along with faith.


(CLV) Ro 3:28
For we are reckoning a man to be justified by faith apart from works of law.


Paul, a Torah scholar, having studied under Gamaliel, and sent by Yahshua from the road to Damascus that we are not justified by works of the law. I don't believe for a moment that Paul was contradicting James; or James would have surely corrected him.

Clearly works are different than works of the law.


(CLV) Ro 2:13
For not the listeners to law are just with God, but the doers of law shall be justified.

Here, Paul, in the same letter that the doers of the law will be justified. I don't believe for a moment that Paul is contradicting himself. I don't believe that he was suffering from mental dysfunction; and that he couldn't remember what he had written several paragraphs before.

Clearly the law, is different than works of the law.

 

[GedaliahMaegil]

What many gloss over is Ya`akov's reference to the "royal law", which hearkens back to Devarim (Deuteronomy) 17:18-20 and the requirements for a king in Yisra`el.

 

[eleos1954]

(CLV) Ja 2:24
You see that by works a man is being justified, and not by faith only.

James, brother of Yahshua, of the inner circle of the Apostles, purported the head of the ecclessia after Yahshua's ascension, claims that works play a part in our justification, along with faith.


(CLV) Ro 3:28
For we are reckoning a man to be justified by faith apart from works of law.


Paul, a Torah scholar, having studied under Gamaliel, and sent by Yahshua from the road to Damascus that we are not justified by works of the law. I don't believe for a moment that Paul was contradicting James; or James would have surely corrected him.

Clearly works are different than works of the law.


(CLV) Ro 2:13
For not the listeners to law are just with God, but the doers of law shall be justified.

Here, Paul, in the same letter that the doers of the law will be justified. I don't believe for a moment that Paul is contradicting himself. I don't believe that he was suffering from mental dysfunction; and that he couldn't remember what he had written several paragraphs before.

Clearly the law, is different than works of the law.

My understanding ...

The law is not different ... the law is perfect. The law makes us aware of our sin ... without it we would not know what sin is. Being made aware of our sin is what draws us to Jesus.

When we receive Christ He begins HIS works in the believer .... helping us to overcome sin (transgression of His perfect law). It is HIS works not ours. It's knowing and acknowledging where the works come from ... they come from Jesus and praise His name for all His works!

So if we have received Christ and remain in Him, yes we experience the benefit of HIS works He does in the believer through the Holy Spirit (being more so conformed into His perfect image). A life-long process.

 

[Mr. M]

My understanding ...

The law is not different ... the law is perfect. The law makes us aware of our sin ... without it we would not know what sin is. Being made aware of our sin is what draws us to Jesus.

When we receive Christ He begins HIS works in the believer .... helping us to overcome sin (transgression of His perfect law). It is HIS works not ours. It's knowing and acknowledging where the works come from ... they come from Jesus and praise His name for all His works!

So if we have received Christ and remain in Him, yes we experience the benefit of HIS works He does in the believer through the Holy Spirit (being more so conformed into His perfect image). A life-long process.

James 4:17. Therefore whoever knows the right thing to do and does not do it—for him it is sin.

 

[Dkh587]

What are “works of law”?

 

[HARK!]

What are “works of law”?

I don't see "Works of Law" mentioned in the Torah. I don't see any mention of it by Yahshua. Paul is the only one in the Bible to use this expression. Where is Paul getting this?

It is mentioned up to 6 times, 4 times in Galatians, and maybe 2 times in Romans.
Galatians 2:16, 3:2, 3:5, 3:10 Romans 3:27, 9:32

It is also mentioned in the Qumran Scrolls.

Q394 (4QMMTa) 4QHalakhic Letter
Dead Sea Scrolls Project: 4QMMT

Definition of halacha
: the body of Jewish law supplementing the scriptural law and forming especially the legal part of the Talmud
Definition of HALACHA

Yahshua rebuked putting the traditions of men over the Torah. Yahshua kept the Torah and called us to follow his example. Paul followed yahshua's example and called us to follow his example.

(CLV) 1Co 11:1
Become imitators of me, according as I also am of Christ.

 

[Mr. M]

Yahshua rebuked putting the traditions of men over the Torah. Yahshua kept the Torah and called us to follow his example. Paul followed yahshua's example and called us to follow his example.

(CLV) 1Co 11:1
Become imitators of me, according as I also am of Christ.

1 Corinthians 11:
1 Be imitators of me, just as I also am of Messiah.
2 Now I praise you because you remember me in everything and hold firm the traditions
just as I passed them on to you.

By the Ruach, Messiah Yeshua and His apostles established the ecclesia in traditions
that would not transgress the commandments of God.

Matthew 15:
2 Why do Your disciples transgress the tradition of the elders? For they do not do the ritual
handwashing when they eat bread.
3 And answering, He said to them, “Why do you also transgress the commandment of God
for the sake of your tradition?

In many ways, the new traditions were more strict!
Matthew 5:
38 “You have heard that it was said, ‘An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth.’
39 But I tell you, do not resist an evildoer. But whoever slaps you on your right cheek,
turn to him also the other.
40 And the one wanting to sue you and to take your shirt, let him also have your coat.
41 Whoever forces you to go one mile, go with him two.
42 Give to the one who asks of you, and do not turn away from the one who wants
to borrow from you.

Is this not because we have been given of His Spirit?
2 Thessalonians 2:15. Therefore, brethren, stand fast and hold the traditions which
you were taught, whether by word or our epistle.

 

[HARK!]

In many ways, the new traditions were more strict!
Matthew 5:
38 “You have heard that it was said, ‘An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth.’
39 But I tell you, do not resist an evildoer. But whoever slaps you on your right cheek,
turn to him also the other.
40 And the one wanting to sue you and to take your shirt, let him also have your coat.
41 Whoever forces you to go one mile, go with him two.
42 Give to the one who asks of you, and do not turn away from the one who wants
to borrow from you.

These aren't traditions. They are examples of loving your enemy, just as commanded in the Torah.

(CLV) Ex 23:4
In case you come upon the bull of your enemy or his donkey going astray, you shall return, yea return it to him.

 

[daq]

I don't see "Works of Law" mentioned in the Torah. I don't see any mention of it by Yahshua. Paul is the only one in the Bible to use this expression. Where is Paul getting this?

It is mentioned up to 6 times, 4 times in Galatians, and maybe 2 times in Romans.
Galatians 2:16, 3:2, 3:5, 3:10 Romans 3:27, 9:32

It is also mentioned in the Qumran Scrolls.

Q394 (4QMMTa) 4QHalakhic Letter
Dead Sea Scrolls Project: 4QMMT

Definition of halacha
: the body of Jewish law supplementing the scriptural law and forming especially the legal part of the Talmud
Definition of HALACHA

Yahshua rebuked putting the traditions of men over the Torah. Yahshua kept the Torah and called us to follow his example. Paul followed yahshua's example and called us to follow his example.

(CLV) 1Co 11:1
Become imitators of me, according as I also am of Christ.

I just recently found an excellent blog post on 4QMMT and Paul's usage of the phrase.

4QMMT and Paul's "Works of the Law" (Galatians 2)

The acronym MMT are the first letters of the Hebrew words in the name assigned to the manuscript, Miqsat Ma'aseh ha-Torah. Translated, the words mean "a selection of the works of the Law" or "significant works of the Law." The Dead Sea Scrolls may shed important light on what this phrase meant...

reesecommentaries.com

 

[Soyeong]

(CLV) Ja 2:24
You see that by works a man is being justified, and not by faith only.

James, brother of Yahshua, of the inner circle of the Apostles, purported the head of the ecclessia after Yahshua's ascension, claims that works play a part in our justification, along with faith.


(CLV) Ro 3:28
For we are reckoning a man to be justified by faith apart from works of law.


Paul, a Torah scholar, having studied under Gamaliel, and sent by Yahshua from the road to Damascus that we are not justified by works of the law. I don't believe for a moment that Paul was contradicting James; or James would have surely corrected him.

Clearly works are different than works of the law.


(CLV) Ro 2:13
For not the listeners to law are just with God, but the doers of law shall be justified.

Here, Paul, in the same letter that the doers of the law will be justified. I don't believe for a moment that Paul is contradicting himself. I don't believe that he was suffering from mental dysfunction; and that he couldn't remember what he had written several paragraphs before.

Clearly the law, is different than works of the law.

In Acts 5:32, the Spirit has been given to those who obey God, so obedience to God is part of the way to receive the Spirit, however, Galatians 3:1-2 denies that "works of the law" are part the way to receive the Spirit, therefore that phrase does not refer to obedience to God. In Romans 3:27-31, Paul contrasted a law of works with a law of faith, so works if the law are of works while he said that our faith upholds God's law, so it is of faith, and a law that our faith upholds can't be referring to the same thing as the works of the law that are not of faith in Galatians 3:10-12. The interpretation of those verses referring to God's instructions as untrustworthy or as not being of faith is the position that denies the trustworthiness and faithfulness of the God.

Character traits are not something that are earned as the result of our works, but are only attained through faith that we ought to be doers of those traits, however, it is contradictory for someone to have a character trait while not being a doer of that trait. For example, there is not amount of courageous works that someone is required to have done first in order to earn the trait of being courageous as the result, but rather the only way to become courageous is through faith that we ought to be doers of courageous works, however, it would be contradictory for someone to be courageous while not being a doer of courageous works, and the same goes for righteousness. The way to believe in God is through faith that we ought to be doers of His character traits. For example, by doing good works in obedience to God's law we are testifying about His goodness, which is why our good works bring glory to Him (Matthew 5:16), and by testifying about God's goodness we are also expressing the belief that God is good, or in other words, we are believing in Him.

 

[HARK!]

In Romans 3:27-31, Paul contrasted a law of works with a law of faith, so works if the law are of works while he said that our faith upholds God's law, so it is of faith, and a law that our faith upholds can't be referring to the same thing as the works of the law that are not of faith

I should point out that Paul came up with numerous categories of law in that letter. Leave it to a lawyer.

The Law of Faith (Ch 3)
A Different Law (Ch 7)
The Law of My Mind (Ch 7)
The Law of Sin (Sin's Law) (Ch 7)
God's Law (Ch 7)
The Spirit's Law of Life (Ch 8)
The Law of Sin and Death (Ch 8)
The Law of Righteousness (Ch 9)

Paul differentiates between the Law of Faith. and God's Law.

You can find an exhaustive study on that letter here: A Torah Observant Perspective on Paul on the Law

 

[Soyeong]

I should point out that Paul came up with numerous categories of law in that letter. Leave it to a lawyer.

The Law of Faith (Ch 3)
A Different Law (Ch 7)
The Law of My Mind (Ch 7)
The Law of Sin (Sin's Law) (Ch 7)
God's Law (Ch 7)
The Spirit's Law of Life (Ch 8)
The Law of Sin and Death (Ch 8)
The Law of Righteousness (Ch 9)

Paul differentiates between the Law of Faith. and God's Law.

You can find an exhaustive study on that letter here: A Torah Observant Perspective on Paul on the Law

Paul did not differentiate between the Law of Faith and the Law of God, but rather he equated them. To deny that the Law of God is of faith is to deny the faithfulness of God.

 

[HARK!]

Paul did not differentiate between the Law of Faith and the Law of God, but rather he equated them. To deny that the Law of God is of faith is to deny the faithfulness of God.

I don't see The Law of Faith anywhere in the Torah, nor The Law of Righteousness, nor The Spirit's Law of Life.

Paul seemed to have broken these out of God's Law to make a point; although I'm not seeing the point of this exercise.

In Chapter 10 he sets righteousness as a subset of faith.

6 Yet the righteousness of faith is saying thus: You may not be saying in your heart, Who will be ascending into heaven? - that is, to be leading Christ down "

YHWH didn't categorize these laws that Paul refers to; YHWH called his directions, his directions.

David called them YHWH's Law.

(CLV) Ps 119:1
Happy are those whose way is flawless, Who are walking in the law of Yahweh.

 

[daq]

I don't see The Law of Faith anywhere in the Torah, nor The Law of Righteousness, nor The Spirit's Law of Life.

Paul seemed to have broken these out of God's Law to make a point; although I'm not seeing the point of this exercise.

In Chapter 10 he sets righteousness as a subset of faith.

6 Yet the righteousness of faith is saying thus: You may not be saying in your heart, Who will be ascending into heaven? - that is, to be leading Christ down "

YHWH didn't categorize these laws that Paul refers to; YHWH called his directions, his directions.

David called them YHWH's Law.

(CLV) Ps 119:1
Happy are those whose way is flawless, Who are walking in the law of Yahweh.

I should point out that Paul came up with numerous categories of law in that letter. Leave it to a lawyer.

The Law of Faith (Ch 3)

Regarding the link in Reply #9 above:

In the context of Paul's Epistles:
Ergōn Nomou (εργων νομου) = Ma'aseh haTorah = Works of the Torah = Pharisee Halakha

Romans 3:28
28 λογιζομεθα γαρ δικαιουσθαι πιστει ανθρωπον χωρις εργων νομου

Romans 3:27-28 TS2009
27 Where, then, is the boasting? It is shut out. By what torah [instruction]? Of works? No, but by the torah [instruction] of belief.
28 For we reckon that a man is declared right by belief without works of Torah [Ma'aseh ha Torah].

A Different Law (Ch 7)
The Law of My Mind (Ch 7)
The Law of Sin (Sin's Law) (Ch 7)

1 The first, "a different law" is merely the juxtaposition between the next two.
2 Torah of the mind: the shamayim, the mind, the heavens, the throne of the Father.
2a Torah of the mind = Torah of Elohim
3 The torah-instruction-teaching of the sin offering

...So then with the mind I myself serve the Torah of Elohim: but with the flesh (I serve) the torah-instruction of the sin offering. (Rom 7:25).

God's Law (Ch 7)

Torah of Elohim = Torah of the mind

The Spirit's Law of Life (Ch 8)

The torah-instruction-teaching of the Spirit of Life in Meshiah (his Testimony)

The Law of Sin and Death (Ch 8)

The torah-instruction-teaching of the sin offering and of death (the soul that sins shall die)

The Law of Righteousness (Ch 9)

The torah-instruction-teaching of righteousness

Therefore it is important and necessary that we understand how Paul uses the word nomos, for he uses it just as the word torah is also used in the Torah: for nomos is nothing more than a Greek loan word being employed so as to render the word torah with its various meanings into the Greek language. Torah has multiple meanings, and the places where it is rendered as nomos may be found in the LXX, as well as other words which the LXX also renders as nomos. Nomos can be and is used even for a choq or chuqqah, (statute or enactment), and we cannot ignore those meanings for nomos because Paul employs them in his Epistles. Translators are mistaken if they mechanically render nomos strictly as law all the way through the Greek text.

 

[Soyeong]

I don't see The Law of Faith anywhere in the Torah, nor The Law of Righteousness, nor The Spirit's Law of Life.

Why not? In Matthew 23:23, Jesus said that faith is one of the weightier matters of the Torah, in Isaiah 51:7, the righteous are those on whose heart is the Torah, and in Romans 8:4-7, those who walk in the Spirit are contrasted with those who have minds set on the flesh who refuse to submit to the Torah.

Paul seemed to have broken these out of God's Law to make a point; although I'm not seeing the point of this exercise.

In Chapter 10 he sets righteousness as a subset of faith.

6 Yet the righteousness of faith is saying thus: You may not be saying in your heart, Who will be ascending into heaven? - that is, to be leading Christ down "
YHWH didn't categorize these laws that Paul refers to; YHWH called his directions, his directions.

David called them YHWH's Law.

(CLV) Ps 119:1
Happy are those whose way is flawless, Who are walking in the law of Yahweh.

In Romans 10:5-8, it references Deuteronomy 30:11-20 as the word of faith that we proclaim in regard to saying that the Torah is not too difficult for us to obey and that the one who obeys it will attain life by it.

 

[HARK!]

Translators are mistaken if they mechanically render nomos strictly as law all the way through the Greek text.

It's ironic that I have not found the word pisteuo to be rendered as anything but "believe" in scripture; yet I have not yet found it rendered "believe" in Ancient Greek secular manuscripts.

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If we diverge too far from the doctrine of the KJV, Bible sales drop.

Romans 3:27-28 TS2009
27 Where, then, is the boasting? It is shut out. By what torah [instruction]? Of works? No, but by the torah [instruction] of belief.
28 For we reckon that a man is declared right by belief without works of Torah [Ma'aseh ha Torah].

(CLV) Ro 3:27
Where, then, is boasting? It is debarred! Through what law? Of works? Not! But through faith's law.

The words that were struck were translated in reverse order.

Here is how they read in the Greek manuscripts: νομου law πιστεως of obedience

(CLV) Ro 3:28
For we are reckoning a man to be justified δικαιουσθαι to be being tzadiq (צדיק) righteous by faith πιστει to obey apart from works of law.

We need to be careful not to let translators, who are motivated by profit margins, be the mediators between us and our father.

 

[HARK!]

Why not? In Matthew 23:23, Jesus said that faith is one of the weightier matters of the Torah

(CLV) Mt 23:23
"Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for you are taking tithes from the mint and the dill and the cumin, and -°leave the weightier matters of the law, judging and mercy and faith (πιστιν). Now these it was binding for you to do, and not leave those.

There's that word again. See Post #16.

in Isaiah 51:7, the righteous are those on whose heart is the Torah

Definition of righteous

1 : acting in accord with divine or moral law : free from guilt or sin

Definition of RIGHTEOUS

acting in accord with divine or moral law : free from guilt or sin; morally right or justifiable; arising from an outraged sense of justice or morality… See the full definition

www.merriam-webster.com

In Romans 10:5-8, it references Deuteronomy 30:11-20 as the word of faith that we proclaim in regard to saying that the Torah is not too difficult for us to obey and that the one who obeys it will attain life by it.

There is no word for faith in Ancient Hebrew. It's an abstract concept that comes out of Greek Philosophy, the minds of men.

The word that is often mistranslated as "faith" (אמונה) also doesn't appear in Deuteronomy 30:11-20. That passage is about hearing and obeying.

Amunah can be better translated as standing firm, as in fidelity.

That said, obedience is an act of fidelity.

 

[Yahudim]

Why not? In Matthew 23:23, Jesus said that faith is one of the weightier matters of the Torah, in Isaiah 51:7, the righteous are those on whose heart is the Torah, and in Romans 8:4-7, those who walk in the Spirit are contrasted with those who have minds set on the flesh who refuse to submit to the Torah.


In Romans 10:5-8, it references Deuteronomy 30:11-20 as the word of faith that we proclaim in regard to saying that the Torah is not too difficult for us to obey and that the one who obeys it will attain life by it.

My dear sibling, I pray that you will consider my words carefully. It took me a very long time to get to the point where I felt I understood, to a great degree, the subtleties of scripture and context of the same. Guess what. All that was turned on it's head and recently.

While much of what I had learned was useful, what has recently been imparted to me, upon repeated resistance, when once considered in sincerity, turned much of my former understanding on it's head. Many and frightful are the deceptions by unseen powers and principalities. For once uncovered, the breadth and depth their deceptions, cloaked in the mantle of 'righteousness' and academic consensus, starkly present as deceptions nonetheless. Deceptions which permeated even the seemingly plainest of our Father's truths and promises.

It is no secret that scripture has been tainted in the form scribal error and misconstrued cultural and philosophical context, which in turn affects our comprehension of even life and death circumstance.

The ravages of evil prevarications, time and the bad acts by the hands of men are equally devastating. Some deceptions have merely been 'correction' based in dogma that nonetheless proves dystopic by the well intended and equal in import to the most vile evil. So intentioned or innocent in motive notwithstanding, the net result is to still leave the ardent and true student of the Word with false impressions and dangerous perils to be blindly navigated. Yes, we are guided by the Spirit, but only when our internal and incessant dialog is forcefully suppressed.

Yet throughout all of the abuses of the former and present day custodians of His Holy Script, there is yet those to which the truth of these matters have been revealed. You should be counted among them. But it is a journey and not a destination.

So I pray you would understand that we are meant to love, trust and learn from our brethren. Likewise, I would make an humble request of you:

Please consider the service @HARK! and @daq would offer and seriously meditate on these matters. For I once believed as you do, but through their assistance, I have come to understand a great many matters once and recently held close, to be based on manifold errors of myself and our forebears, due to an incomplete or outright faulty recognition of its true form and context.

Please know that we all are praying for all these members and all these matters, for they are all dear to the heart of the Father. Please allow the matters of contention, your deepest and sincerest consideration. For theirs is a gift offered in His love and should be received in a like manner.

Shalom, shalom...

 

[be(t)et lamed resh]

Why not? In Matthew 23:23, Jesus said that faith is one of the weightier matters of the Torah, in Isaiah 51:7, the righteous are those on whose heart is the Torah, and in Romans 8:4-7, those who walk in the Spirit are contrasted with those who have minds set on the flesh who refuse to submit to the Torah.


In Romans 10:5-8, it references Deuteronomy 30:11-20 as the word of faith that we proclaim in regard to saying that the Torah is not too difficult for us to obey and that the one who obeys it will attain life by it.

And father avraham וְהֶאֱמִן believed amen. With Works of the Torah, flesh would propagate flesh in the natural sense. As in multiply and fill the earth. Where as avraham was childless. And so his faith is rewarded a seed and heir to inherit promises outside of the works of the Torah.

ו וְהֶאֱמִן, בַּיהוָה; וַיַּחְשְׁבֶהָ לּוֹ, צְדָקָה.

6 And he believed in the LORD; and He counted it to him for righteousness

 

[Soyeong]

And father avraham וְהֶאֱמִן believed amen. With Works of the Torah, flesh would propagate flesh in the natural sense. As in multiply and fill the earth. Where as avraham was childless. And so his faith is rewarded a seed and heir to inherit promises outside of the works of the Torah.

ו וְהֶאֱמִן, בַּיהוָה; וַיַּחְשְׁבֶהָ לּוֹ, צְדָקָה.

6 And he believed in the LORD; and He counted it to him for righteousness

While it is true that Abraham believed God, so he was counted as righteous, it is also true that he believed God, so he obeyed God's command to offer Isaac (Hebrews 11:17), so the same faith by which he was declared righteous was also expressed by being an obeyer of God, but he did not earn his righteousness as the result of his obedience (Romans 4:1-5). In James 2:21-24, it quotes Genesis 15:6 to support saying that Abraham was justified by his works when he offered Isaac, that his faith was active along with his works, and faith completed his works, so he was justified by his works so far as they were expressing his faith, but not insofar as they were earning a wage.

In Matthew 4:15-23, Messiah began his ministry with the Gospel message to repent for the Kingdom of God is at hand, which was a light to the Gentiles, and the Torah was how his audience knew what sin is (Romans 3:20), so repenting from our disobedience to it is a central part of the Gospel of the Kingdom, which is in accordance with him being sent as the promised seed to bless us by turning us from our wickedness (Acts 3:25-26), which is the Gospel that was made known in advance to Abraham in accordance with the promise (Galatians 3:8), and which he spread to Gentiles in Haran in accordance with the promise (Genesis 12:1-5).

In Genesis 18:19, God knew Abraham that he would teach his children and those of his household to walk in God's way by doing righteousness and justice that the Lord may bring to him all that He has promised. In Genesis 26:4-5, God will multiply Abraham's children as the stars in the heaven, to his children He will give all of these lands, and through his children all of the nations of the earth will be blessed because Abraham heard God's voice and guarded His charge, His commandments, His statutes, and His laws. In Deuteronomy 30:16, if the children of Abraham will love God with all of their heart by walking in His way in obedience to His commandments, statutes, and laws, then they will live and multiply and God will bless them in the land that they go to posses. So the promise was made to Abraham and brought about because he walked in God's way in obedience to the Torah, he taught his children and those of his household to do that in accordance with spreading the Gospel of the Kingdom, and because they walked in God's way in obedience in obedience to the Torah.

In Psalms 119:1-3, the Torah is how the children of Abraham know how to be blessed by walking in God's way, and in John 8:39, Messiah said that if they were children of Abraham, then they would be doing the same works as him, so the way that the children of Abraham are multiplied and are a blessing to the nations in accordance with inheriting the promise through faith is by turning the nations from their wickedness and teaching them to do the same works as Abraham by walking in God's way in obedience to the Torah, which is spreading the Gospel of the Kingdom.