works on and by Father Seraphim (Rose)

[gzt]

Your interpretation of the evidence presented by those saints.

 

[Lukaris]

Whatever one thinks of Fr. Seraphim's writings no one can deny that he is inspiring to many. It is likely he will be understood to be a saint. Such sentiment must be respected.

That being said, not all of us find him inspiring. If an inquirer finds him inspiring & becomes Orthodox, give glory to God. If an inquirer does not, there are plenty of other resources to continue inquiry into Orthodoxy.

 

[ArmyMatt]

Your interpretation of the evidence presented by those saints.

no, when someone like St Nektarios of Aegina writes a whole tract about how evolution is wrong. there is no interpretation on my part. he says what he says. St Theophan the recluse does the same. there is no vagueness when it comes to what they say.

 

[gzt]

Yes, they say those things, the question is how that evidence is interpreted. The fathers say a lot of things.

 

[ArmyMatt]

Yes, they say those things, the question is how that evidence is interpreted. The fathers say a lot of things.

not when it comes to evolution. they interpret very clearly when you read them. St Nikolai of Ziccha is also very clear in his missionary letters that evolution is false

 

[gzt]

not when it comes to evolution. they interpret very clearly when you read them. St Nikolai of Ziccha is also very clear in his missionary letters that evolution is false

Yes, the point is how we are to interpret the evidence, which is that a handful of modern saints claim that evolution is false. This is hardly determinative. Hope that helps. We've been over this several times before. Again, there is quite a fair amount of literature that we have linked to. My bishop, for what it's worth, agrees with me.

 

[gzt]

For the lurkers, I'm not claiming that those relatively recent saints are in favor of evolution, but rather that the interpretation of that evidence isn't so conclusive. There are plenty of modern Orthodox, including bishops, priests, etc, who disagree with those saints. Just because a handful of saints, even recent ones, dismiss evolution doesn't mean that the world isn't billions of years old. Again, there are several resources discussing this. HTH. HAND.

 

[ArmyMatt]

Yes, the point is how we are to interpret the evidence, which is that a handful of modern saints claim that evolution is false. This is hardly determinative. Hope that helps. We've been over this several times before. Again, there is quite a fair amount of literature that we have linked to. My bishop, for what it's worth, agrees with me.

and my point is that for the Orthodox, what the saints say is determinitive. I know plenty of bishops that agree with me. what you don't have, or at least have yet to show, is any saint that agrees with you.

and it is not just a handful when every saint who has commented on it has rejected it

 

[gzt]

It's not quite the case that what the saints say is determinative, especially when a matter is as new as it is. This matter is as yet unsettled.

 

[ArmyMatt]

It's not quite the case that what the saints say is determinative, especially when a matter is as new as it is. This matter is as yet unsettled.

no, the matter is not unsettled. if it were, some saints would at least be open to it. and they aren't. no saint before or after. and not even all bishops, priests, or academics agree with evolution. nothing in Scripture, nothing in the services or prayers. only a portion of modern Orthodox academia.

at one point, Nestorianism was new, but just because it was new never meant it was unsettled til Ephesus.

 

[gzt]

You seem quite adamant, but it remains an option for Orthodox believers. Hopefully one day there will be some more official work done, then we can talk.

 

[ArmyMatt]

You seem quite adamant, but it remains an option for Orthodox believers. Hopefully one day there will be some more official work done, then we can talk.

and simply being optional does not make something Orthodox theology.

 

[gzt]

I'm asserting no such thing. However, I'm content to follow my bishop on this and hope for clarification from the theological authorities in the future.

 

[ArmyMatt]

I'm asserting no such thing. However, I'm content to follow my bishop on this and hope for clarification from the theological authorities in the future.

right, you actually began by asserting that Genesis, Creation, and early Man was bad Orthodox theology.

and at least as far as evolution goes, you now seem to be asserting that it is an option along with Creationism.

 

[gzt]

It is bad theology because it teaches what is false - the world is in fact billions of years old. However, it is an accepted option because of precedent - I believe one phrase used in another similar situation was "the antiquity of error". I quite agree with my bishop's take on Genesis and I trust him more than internet strangers who assert he's wrong. I await, of course, a conclusion from an authoritative source (who would of course account for the evidence you are presenting).

 

[gzt]

I assert that creationism is an option alongside acknowledging reality - but also that from the creationist view one must accept reality as an option in Orthodoxy.

 

[ArmyMatt]

It is bad theology because it teaches what is false - the world is in fact billions of years old. However, it is an accepted option because of precedent - I believe one phrase used in another similar situation was "the antiquity of error". I quite agree with my bishop's take on Genesis and I trust him more than internet strangers who assert he's wrong. I await, of course, a conclusion from an authoritative source (who would of course account for the evidence you are presenting).

yeah, I get that is your point, which is why I am not bringing up the ancient saints, but the modern ones.

 

[ArmyMatt]

I assert that creationism is an option alongside acknowledging reality - but also that from the creationist view one must accept reality as an option in Orthodoxy.

and it's the Saints who know Christ which is true reality

 

[archer75]

it's massive, but his biography is awesome (by Fr Damascene). I would also add for someone who is looking into Orthodoxy, The Place of Blessed Augustine in the Orthodox Church and God's Revelation to the Human Heart as good starters.

a lot of his stuff is very sobering, so that is what I would begin with.

I've read about a quarter of the biography by Fr. Damascene. Stunning book. Masterful.

 

[ArmyMatt]

I've read about a quarter of the biography by Fr. Damascene. Stunning book. Masterful.

yeah, it's pretty awesome.