"Word of God"?

[redleghunter]

Not to be argumentative, but Anglicans, Episcopalians, some Methodists? I'm not entirely sure but I thought some Presbyterians? Though they generally do as the Catholics and try to define it in some way or another to some degree. Some see it as highly spiritual, for example.

I'm not aware of any who believe as Orthodoxy that it simply "is" without any further explanation or definition, unless it is that it "truly is".

Good day and happy new year Anastasia!

You will find most Reformed churches especially Presbyterian (and their Evangelical offshoots) do indeed attest to what is called "real presence" with regards to communion. It is not the Catholic view of course and differs with the Lutheran view as well.

This may be helpful:

Ligonier Ministries

As you will see from a Reformed and even Evangelical perspective the Lord's Supper (1 Corinthians 10) is an intimate union of the ekklesia with Christ. It's a time to seek out God's Grace in our lives. To come for strength through Christ to battle our weaknesses and dedicate ourselves for our continued walk with Christ.

A typical Sunday at my church: Before services is the Sunday school time and adult small groups. The small groups are for a more intimate time of prayer, testimony, Bible study and examining our walk with Christ. Combined, both the Worship service and Communion and small group is about 4 hours. Several more small groups, Bible studies (we run one for Soldiers on the military installation every Wednesday) and local community ministries occur during the week. We run a local "road to recovery" in our church; are partnered with three other churches in a pregnancy crisis center (which includes supporting single moms and financially challenged families with basic necessities raising young children). Each church 'member' (our pastor insists we are all partners) is encouraged to minister in the community with the light given to them from God. Although small in comparison to the churches locally, my church has a very vibrant missionary presence overseas. A very close knit church.

The church I attended when I was much younger (after I left the Roman Catholic church) dedicated one hour and 15 mins for the Lord's Supper. Only church members attended, there was silent and public prayer, singing hymns with no musical instruments (we only had an organ and piano); some stood up and read Biblical passages related to the Suffering Servant and other relevant verses to Christ's sacrifice and resurrection. Then we all partook of the loaf and the cup. 1hr and 15min. Then we had a fellowship time for 45 mins and then opened the doors for all to come to hear the word of God (Sunday school time, and adult services). This was another 90 minutes. Another fellowship time after that for those who wanted to stay. Then back at 6pm for the evening Bible hour (Bible Study). It was almost an all day event. Then all were encouraged to attend the various men's and women's and children's Bible Studies/prayer time during the week (Tuesdays); Mondays were ministering to the shut-ins and elderly (this included visiting nursing homes and hospitals); Wednesdays included some fellowship events (to include for the elders prison ministries). Thursday nights were for the elders to handle business issues (paying the bills and any church related issues) as all the men had jobs outside the church to support their families. Fridays had fun stuff for kids like movies or guest speakers. I guess Saturdays were off. A very small and very dedicated church. They also run a Gospel mission home for the homeless, and people recovering from substance abuse. I really miss that church but now live 1200 miles too far.

 

[redleghunter]

redleghunter, you're a guest in the Orthodox forum. Please remember that as guests, we're not to debate their teachings here.

Thank you I should have look first.

 

[~Anastasia~]

That is interesting, and we would be glad for those points we have in common. It is good that Holy Communion is taken seriously, and that it is understood as uniting within the Body and with Christ.

The explanation part, as every one I've ever read in any Catholic or Protestant denomination, goes into explanation, which we would not do, and expressly denies the physical presence of Christ, which we do not. However, as I pretty much always see, it seems the explanations are the basis for any difference between us.

I am glad for some belief in a real presence though. Presbyterians I am less familiar with than many, and it may be not a belief widespread among many different kinds of Presbyterians, but I've seen discussion of explaining away such things as the Virgin birth, which honestly begins to strike at the core of my understanding of theology, so I didn't want to generalize anything beyond what I know (which is little) of any beliefs of any type of Presbyterian.

I am simply glad for a dedicated service for the purpose of receiving Holy Communion, and again, for the points we share in common, which are good ones.

Oh, and I think somewhere in this thread I tried to make the point that not every Protestant denomination is sermon-focused. Some still have a Liturgy not far different from our own.

But some are indeed different on nearly every point of practice, and I suppose that was part of the point made that their theology would be affected by their changes in practice as well.

Peace to you, and Merry Christmas and Happy New Year to you and yours. It's good to see you in the forums. I hope you are doing well. God be with you!

Good day and happy new year Anastasia!

You will find most Reformed churches especially Presbyterian (and their Evangelical offshoots) do indeed attest to what is called "real presence" with regards to communion. It is not the Catholic view of course and differs with the Lutheran view as well.

This may be helpful:

Ligonier Ministries

As you will see from a Reformed and even Evangelical perspective the Lord's Supper (1 Corinthians 10) is an intimate union of the ekklesia with Christ. It's a time to seek out God's Grace in our lives. To come for strength through Christ to battle our weaknesses and dedicate ourselves for our continued walk with Christ.

A typical Sunday at my church: Before services is the Sunday school time and adult small groups. The small groups are for a more intimate time of prayer, testimony, Bible study and examining our walk with Christ. Combined, both the Worship service and Communion and small group is about 4 hours. Several more small groups, Bible studies (we run one for Soldiers on the military installation every Wednesday) and local community ministries occur during the week. We run a local "road to recovery" in our church; are partnered with three other churches in a pregnancy crisis center (which includes supporting single moms and financially challenged families with basic necessities raising young children). Each church 'member' (our pastor insists we are all partners) is encouraged to minister in the community with the light given to them from God. Although small in comparison to the churches locally, my church has a very vibrant missionary presence overseas. A very close knit church.

The church I attended when I was much younger (after I left the Roman Catholic church) dedicated one hour and 15 mins for the Lord's Supper. Only church members attended, there was silent and public prayer, singing hymns with no musical instruments (we only had an organ and piano); some stood up and read Biblical passages related to the Suffering Servant and other relevant verses to Christ's sacrifice and resurrection. Then we all partook of the loaf and the cup. 1hr and 15min. Then we had a fellowship time for 45 mins and then opened the doors for all to come to hear the word of God (Sunday school time, and adult services). This was another 90 minutes. Another fellowship time after that for those who wanted to stay. Then back at 6pm for the evening Bible hour (Bible Study). It was almost an all day event. Then all were encouraged to attend the various men's and women's and children's Bible Studies/prayer time during the week (Tuesdays); Mondays were ministering to the shut-ins and elderly (this included visiting nursing homes and hospitals); Wednesdays included some fellowship events (to include for the elders prison ministries). Thursday nights were for the elders to handle business issues (paying the bills and any church related issues) as all the men had jobs outside the church to support their families. Fridays had fun stuff for kids like movies or guest speakers. I guess Saturdays were off. A very small and very dedicated church. They also run a Gospel mission home for the homeless, and people recovering from substance abuse. I really miss that church but now live 1200 miles too far.

 

[redleghunter]

I am glad for some belief in a real presence though. Presbyterians I am less familiar with than many, and it may be not a belief widespread among many different kinds of Presbyterians, but I've seen discussion of explaining away such things as the Virgin birth, which honestly begins to strike at the core of my understanding of theology, so I didn't want to generalize anything beyond what I know (which is little) of any beliefs of any type of Presbyterian

For information purposes, I don't think there are any Reformed churches nor Evangelicals coming from those churches which deny the Virgin Birth. You may get varying views of Mary as a perpetual Virgin. Those who identify as "non-denom" here are not creedal churches. Reformed and most Evangelicals are as recognizing the Orthodox Christological ecumenical councils.

But some are indeed different on nearly every point of practice, and I suppose that was part of the point made that their theology would be affected by their changes in practice as well.

Yes this is true. The worship service I attend is quite lively. A mixture of old time hymns and more contemporary Christian music. I did attend my aunt's church once. She was Eastern Orthodox married to my uncle a Roman Catholic. A lot of standing.

Peace to you, and Merry Christmas and Happy New Year to you and yours. It's good to see you in the forums. I hope you are doing well. God be with you!

And to you and your family may the Grace and Peace of our Lord Jesus Christ be upon you.

 

[Tallguy88]

I grew up non Denom and we definitely believed in the Virgin Birth.

 

[peregrinus2017]

• One of the things leading me to Orthodoxy is the issue of the Eucharist. In my present church I can ask six different people that are considered elders of the church the meaning of Holy Communion and get six different answers, and no one seems to think this matters. It appears to be viewed as a personal and individual consideration. It matters to me. I do not want to be guilty of receiving in an unworthy manner, not discerning the body of Christ. Nor can I reconcile communing together in such disparate views. I apologise for taking things in this direction, this is an issue that weighs on me, it has been a long time since I have felt able to receive communion.

 

[~Anastasia~]

For information purposes, I don't think there are any Reformed churches nor Evangelicals coming from those churches which deny the Virgin Birth. You may get varying views of Mary as a perpetual Virgin. Those who identify as "non-denom" here are not creedal churches. Reformed and most Evangelicals are as recognizing the Orthodox Christological ecumenical councils.

It was PCUSA, if I'm not mistaken. I need to check into it and see if I was misinformed. I know I was rather surprised myself to hear several reasons why Christ was not necessarily born of a virgin, but also had a human biological father. That part I didn't misunderstand. It was not the ever-virginity of Mary, which I know is disputed in many denominations, but the actual virgin birth.

I grew up non Denom and we definitely believed in the Virgin Birth.

I would have expected this. It was not until recent years I heard any discussion among denominations concerning alternative views on the Virgin birth. It is too foundational to the Incarnation, in my own understanding.

 

[~Anastasia~]

• One of the things leading me to Orthodoxy is the issue of the Eucharist. In my present church I can ask six different people that are considered elders of the church the meaning of Holy Communion and get six different answers, and no one seems to think this matters. It appears to be viewed as a personal and individual consideration. It matters to me. I do not want to be guilty of receiving in an unworthy manner, not discerning the body of Christ. Nor can I reconcile communing together in such disparate views. I apologise for taking things in this direction, this is an issue that weighs on me, it has been a long time since I have felt able to receive communion.

There is nothing I can say regarding a lack of consistency in beliefs regarding Holy Communion. It was a problem for me too in various denominations I belonged to in the past.

I appreciated learning that the basis of koinonia involves Eucharistic fellowship, which encompasses consistency of beliefs including and beyond the Eucharist.

The Church is meant (and always was meant) to share unity in faith.

 

[ArmyMatt]

• One of the things leading me to Orthodoxy is the issue of the Eucharist. In my present church I can ask six different people that are considered elders of the church the meaning of Holy Communion and get six different answers, and no one seems to think this matters. It appears to be viewed as a personal and individual consideration. It matters to me. I do not want to be guilty of receiving in an unworthy manner, not discerning the body of Christ. Nor can I reconcile communing together in such disparate views. I apologise for taking things in this direction, this is an issue that weighs on me, it has been a long time since I have felt able to receive communion.

that was one thing that I noticed as well, how not only did beliefs differ between individual Christian confessions, but different individual members within those confessions.

 

[RobNJ]

Actually, the Calvinist denominations don't teach the real presence, in the way the Orthodox do.
See the Reformed Church's Heidelberg Catechism on the subject:
Are then the bread and wine changed into the real body and blood of Christ? - Lord's Day 29 - Heidelberg Catechism

And the Presbyterian Westminster confession, on the subject (especially V, VI, VII) :
Westminster Confession - Of the Lord's Supper - Chapt 29

Compare that to The Orthodox Faith, from the OCA, on the subject
https://oca.org/orthodoxy/the-orthodox-faith/worship/the-sacraments/holy-eucharist

 

[FenderTL5]

• One of the things leading me to Orthodoxy is the issue of the Eucharist. In my present church I can ask six different people that are considered elders of the church the meaning of Holy Communion and get six different answers, and no one seems to think this matters. It appears to be viewed as a personal and individual consideration. It matters to me. I do not want to be guilty of receiving in an unworthy manner, not discerning the body of Christ. Nor can I reconcile communing together in such disparate views. I apologise for taking things in this direction, this is an issue that weighs on me, it has been a long time since I have felt able to receive communion.

I distinctly remember that uncomfortable Sunday when the pastor of the SBC church I was attending and playing music in every Sunday morning, held up the tiny plastic communion cup saying, "this is just grape juice. It's only grape juice and that's all it it will ever be, but.."
I cringed and knew I was in the wrong place.

 

[peregrinus2017]

I distinctly remember that uncomfortable Sunday when the pastor of the SBC church I was attending and playing music in every Sunday morning, held up the tiny plastic communion cup saying, "this is just grape juice. It's only grape juice and that's all it it will ever be, but.."
I cringed and knew I was in the wrong place.

Yeah, I had an almost identical experience about six months ago. I was at the sound board, communion was being served, and I asked God if I was making too big a deal of this. The instant I finished praying, one of the elders that was helping serve communion went up to a mic and said "This is just juice, and this is just bread, and we do this to remember you." I do appreciate such clear and timely answers to prayer, even when they hurt.

 

[Erik Nelson]

According to Michael Heiser's book The Bible Unfiltered, John uses Greek Logos to translate (Aramaic memre and) Hebrew qowl, the "Voice" of God in the Garden of Eden (Genesis 3:8).

 

[~Anastasia~]

According to Michael Heiser's book The Bible Unfiltered, John uses Greek Logos to translate (Aramaic memre and) Hebrew qowl, the "Voice" of God in the Garden of Eden (Genesis 3:8).

Interesting point.

The Septuagint uses φωνής (phones) rather than (logos) in Gen 3:8 ... but I hadn't checked the OT when I was asking that question.

However it refers to both the voice and face of the Lord (in the Greek) - but not word.

Thanks.

 

[ubicaritas]

Yeah, I had an almost identical experience about six months ago. I was at the sound board, communion was being served, and I asked God if I was making too big a deal of this. The instant I finished praying, one of the elders that was helping serve communion went up to a mic and said "This is just juice, and this is just bread, and we do this to remember you." I do appreciate such clear and timely answers to prayer, even when they hurt.

That's really debased and disrespectful even from a traditional Reformed perspective. The Lord's Supper is not the time for religious polemics.

 

[Hermit76]

Yeah, I had an almost identical experience about six months ago. I was at the sound board, communion was being served, and I asked God if I was making too big a deal of this. The instant I finished praying, one of the elders that was helping serve communion went up to a mic and said "This is just juice, and this is just bread, and we do this to remember you." I do appreciate such clear and timely answers to prayer, even when they hurt.

"This is My Body, This is My Blood" is as clear as it gets.

 

[~Anastasia~]

Since it's my thread and it's also many months old I can do this.

#ThingsJesusNeverSaid

 

[RobNJ]

That's really debased and disrespectful even from a traditional Reformed perspective. The Lord's Supper is not the time for religious polemics.

Although it's a somewhat accurate example of Zwingli's views in practice, unfortunately.

 

[Albion]

"This is My Body, This is My Blood" is as clear as it gets.

If it were, we would not be getting six or more different interpretations of it from leading denominations. And the original wording did not have a verb. See what it says and how clear it is...without that.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

Not when you’re outside the Church and you’re relying on flawed human beings who are lacking the Fathers! “This is my Body” then can be taken as allegory like “I am the vine,” etc.

"This is My Body, This is My Blood" is as clear as it gets.