"Word of God"?

[ArmyMatt]

I remember in one of my Protestant Bibles, in the commentary it said the Holy Spirit is the most mysterious member of the Trinity. this, although definitely unintentional I am sure, made Him out to be treated more like a what than a Who.

 

[~Anastasia~]

I remember in one of my Protestant Bibles, in the commentary it said the Holy Spirit is the most mysterious member of the Trinity. this, although definitely unintentional I am sure, made Him out to be treated more like a what than a Who.

That's a bit ironic from an Orthodox perspective, isn't it? I mean Christ IS God revealed to us in the flesh. So we look to Him to know God. But at the same time God's grace is His activity in the world, and the way we can interact with and know Him ... and while I haven't heard it oft-repeated, I've heard from several Orthodox teachers that the Holy Spirit IS God's grace toward us - meaning the One we interact with. So from an actual experiential standpoint, we should know the Holy Spirit best, and since He testifies to the Son and we have the revelation of Christ, of knowledge we should know Him best. The Father seems the most mysterious One to me ...

 

[ArmyMatt]

That's a bit ironic from an Orthodox perspective, isn't it? I mean Christ IS God revealed to us in the flesh. So we look to Him to know God. But at the same time God's grace is His activity in the world, and the way we can interact with and know Him ... and while I haven't heard it oft-repeated, I've heard from several Orthodox teachers that the Holy Spirit IS God's grace toward us - meaning the One we interact with. So from an actual experiential standpoint, we should know the Holy Spirit best, and since He testifies to the Son and we have the revelation of Christ, of knowledge we should know Him best. The Father seems the most mysterious One to me ...

that's just it, no member of the Trinity is more or less mysterious than the other Two.

 

[FenderTL5]

(going back a page or two, with no intent on derailment)
Churches in the Restoration Movement receive the Lord's Supper routinely (every Sunday at the minimum) and they believe in the importance of Baptism.
However, I don't think they teach a real presence and the sermon still takes center stage in their services.

[disclaimer] when I was in high school and an Independent Baptist; I dated a young lady who was Church of Christ. So, I'm fairly well versed in their theology but make no claims at expertise.

 

[~Anastasia~]

that's just it, no member of the Trinity is more or less mysterious than the other Two.

Maybe my thinking on the Father is wrong then? Though I view Him as having the same - wow I don't know the word. But if Christ is a certain way, I assume the Father is as well. I know they are not the same Person but I don't see them as distinctly different in personality as two humans can be. Anyway - I view the Father as having those same kinds of characteristics, in terms of how He behaves towards us, His overall will for creation, etc. as the Son, and also we know Him as the ultimate Source. But among His other distinctions are that we have not seen Him in the flesh as we have Christ, and He is also not the Holy Spirit sent to us so ... yeah, that's about all I've got, lol. I'm not sure if I'm wrong or just uneducated.

 

[~Anastasia~]

(going back a page or two, with no intent on derailment)
Churches in the Restoration Movement receive the Lord's Supper routinely (every Sunday at the minimum) and they believe in the importance of Baptism.
However, I don't think they teach a real presence and the sermon still takes center stage in their services.

[disclaimer] when I was in high school and an Independent Baptist; I dated a young lady who was Church of Christ. So, I'm fairly well versed in their theology but make no claims at expertise.

No worries about any derailment. I'm satisfied with the answers I received and can integrate that with what else I have. It's all very good. Thanks to everyone!

That's good btw that they consider those two with such high regard. I'm always glad to hear what various denominations get right.

 

[ArmyMatt]

Maybe my thinking on the Father is wrong then? Though I view Him as having the same - wow I don't know the word. But if Christ is a certain way, I assume the Father is as well. I know they are not the same Person but I don't see them as distinctly different in personality as two humans can be. Anyway - I view the Father as having those same kinds of characteristics, in terms of how He behaves towards us, His overall will for creation, etc. as the Son, and also we know Him as the ultimate Source. But among His other distinctions are that we have not seen Him in the flesh as we have Christ, and He is also not the Holy Spirit sent to us so ... yeah, that's about all I've got, lol. I'm not sure if I'm wrong or just uneducated.

yes, but we don't know what distinguishes the Three Persons, only that They are distinct. and remember if we see Christ, we see the Father

 

[~Anastasia~]

yes, but we don't know what distinguishes the Three Persons, only that They are distinct. and remember if we see Christ, we see the Father

Thank you.

I think that's why I had a hard time wording a reply. Christ is God revealed to us, to see Him IS to see the Father. So other than some distinctions found in the Creed mostly, I didn't know what to say.

Thank you.

 

[ArmyMatt]

Thank you.

I think that's why I had a hard time wording a reply. Christ is God revealed to us, to see Him IS to see the Father. So other than some distinctions found in the Creed mostly, I didn't know what to say.

Thank you.

and if we try, we go mad for prying into what is only known to the divine.

 

[~Anastasia~]

and if we try, we go mad for prying into what is only known to the divine.

It seems a pretty futile exercise anyway. As though our human minds could deduce, comprehend, and circumscribe the ineffable God. No wonder they break if we try!

 

[Sorn]

The bible is the Word of God in written form, Jesus is the Word of God in the flesh.

The way i look at it the term 'the Word of God' is a generalization that is often miused.

If you are comparing the Bible to other religous texts (eg Koran, Talmud, Kabalah, writings of the Tutti Frutti tribe of depest darkest Africa etc) and you work on the assumption that the Christian God is the real God then in that case it is ok to say the Bible is the Word of God (as compared to Koran etc).

However when you are looking at the Bible in isolation then saying the Bible is the Word of God leads one to assume that evrything in it is scripturally correct which may not be the case.

With the Bible in isolation it is, imo, more correct to say that the Bible contains the Word of God but it also contains a lot of words spoken by people that may just be a record of what they said (eg David worshiping God etc). A lot of people take these other words to be theological truth also as if God was saying them himself or he was always inspiring people to say them or they had some knowledge of truth that we don't.

Now some of what other people said in the Bible is prophecy or God inspired but not all of it.

Personally, if the Bible records something that God or Jesus said then I pay attention. If it makes it clear that what a person is saying is prophecy then i listen. Anything else I have to see what the context is, why is the person saying it.
It may still have value (writings of apostles etc) but it may also just be a record of a person expressing their worship from their point of view and gven how they would have viewed the world (ie God does everything in nature etc).

I also am fine with Jesus being the 'Word of God'.

 

[Sorn]

Bump

 

[Sorn]

It seems a pretty futile exercise anyway. As though our human minds could deduce, comprehend, and circumscribe the ineffable God. No wonder they break if we try!

You can always try, the trouble is, even if you work it perfectly, hit the nail on the head, you wont know it so you can never be sure.

 

[~Anastasia~]

You can always try, the trouble is, even if you work it perfectly, hit the nail on the head, you wont know it so you can never be sure.

Hello Sorn, welcome to CF, and to TAW!

 

[Halbhh]

Please note that I'm posting in the Eastern Orthodox forum so, while I'm looking for information, it is against forum rules (and would be unproductive) to simply argue against what gets posted by Orthodox in this thread - Thanks!


Ok, disclaimer made.

I hope I can explain the question I've been mulling over the past few days. We know that the Logos, the Word of God, is Jesus Christ.

I'm not sure if Orthodoxy ever refers to the Holy Scriptures by that name. I'm interested in - historically - how it came to be that so very many popularly understand the "word of God" to refer to the Holy Scriptures. IS there any precedent for this in the early Church?

I'm not denying that Scripture is "God breathed" ... and thus inspired, so in a sense to call it God's word might be accurate.

Like a sola scripturist, I started to wonder if there is anywhere in the Bible that the Bibke refers to itself as "the word of God". Since that's what matters to many folks. Put another way, where do they get that? How do they defend it?

But the only passage I could immediately call to mind is Hebrews 4:12

For the word of God is living, and active, and sharper than any two-edged sword, and piercing even to the dividing of soul and spirit, of both joints and marrow, and quick to discern the thoughts and intents of the heart.

I looked at the Greek and it does say "the Logos" ... and then I looked at the overall context and it turns right around and talks about Jesus. I started thinking it makes sense that maybe that verse IS about Jesus, though I never took it that way before.

Then I read that St. Athanasius, St. John Chrysostom, and St. Cyril all see Christ in that passage, and not a book. (I always did wonder how a book could discern, but I took it to be that it made clear distinctions that men could receive, if they would.)

So now I'm wondering if there is any precedent or how it came to be regarded this way, or what Orthodoxy would say about such terminology.

Any comments? Thank you!

Yes, and we have His own words to us faithfully recorded in the accounts called the four gospels, also. Of which He Himself said:

"Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away."
Matthew 24:35
Luke 21:33

This is from Christ speaking, and we can read and listen to what He says to us in these passages.

 

[~Anastasia~]

Yes, and we have His own words to us faithfully recorded in the accounts called the four gospels, also. Of which He Himself said:

"Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away."
Matthew 24:35
Luke 21:33

This is from Christ speaking, and we can read and listen to what He says to us in these passages.

One more reason to love the Gospels. Perhaps the best reason, in fact.

 

[redleghunter]

I am just throwing out my own opinion and observation, for what it is worth, but it seems to me that when protestant denominations no longer accepted the eucharist as the very body and blood of Christ, Gods word replaced God the Word as the centre and pinnacle of the church service and life. I think this creates for many an unclear understanding between Gods word and God the Word.

How so?

 

[redleghunter]

.

 

[Paidiske]

redleghunter, you're a guest in the Orthodox forum. Please remember that as guests, we're not to debate their teachings here.

 

[~Anastasia~]

Yes, I don't wish to be the cause of debate.

Simply enough - I think the point was that the central reason we gather together as the faithful is not to hear preaching. Yes, the Gospel must be preached. Yes, we all receive teaching in various ways. But the central focus of our gathering together each time is to receive Christ in the Eucharist, not to listen to the pastor's sermon.

I love the homilies Father delivers - he's an excellent teacher and encourager. They may be only a few minutes or maybe 20 minutes. But they are not the focus. Yesterday, he didn't even deliver one at all. That happens sometimes too. We still worship God, pray for everyone, and especially receive Christ. Always we have these three, with the Eucharist being the main focus.

I don't mind discussion. But as I said, I don't want to be the cause of debate.

God be with you all.