Word of faith teachers and other issues

[Blackhawk]

There were no Christians in Paul's time??

sorry I saw pharisee and then had Jesus on my mind. There were not technically any Christians at that time.

Mat 18 says if a brother (note this is also pre-cross) has trespassed you, go direct to him and settle it with him. So, how has Kenneth Hagin trepassed you? Have you even gone to see him one on one first? This has to do with personal disputes, not minister attacking minister. Anyway, if you want to use Mat 18, then I suggest you follow it properly and go see whoever offended you.

It has to do with church discipline and one of the big things that concerns is proper theology and doctrine. You asked how he has hurt me personally I say that it does not always have to do with someone hurting me personally but with someone hurting the body of Christ in some way. Now I agree that one needs to be somewhat close to the situation or person in some way to do this but it does not have to be about how someone hurt you personally. Oh and many have gone to him already. If you read all of Matt. 18 there is a progression. He is far beyond that stage. Personally I think he is at the stage of nonfellowship.

What is false teaching to you may not be false teaching to others.

true that is why there is a progression.

What you preach here may be "false" teachings in the charismatic forum or catholic forum, and vice versa. But does that give me a right to tell everyone you are a heretic and false teacher?

It matters what I am teaching. And BTW you have the right to call me whatver but you have to back up your claim. I believe the oponnents to the WOF movement can back up their claims. Although I do not know if all WOF teachers are heretics but just wrong about certain parts of their theology.

If you dare to label the late brother Hagin as a heretic, how is it you dont come into the charismatic forums and start calling all those there like myself, disdaskalos and quaffer false teachers? for we believe much of the WOF teachings. Why dont you warn others here about us too? Call us heretics, false teacher, sheep in wolf's clothing etc and do it in love, if you can.

Well I take people as individuals so I do not try to put all people in one group. Hagin and Copeland are in a different category than you or I am because they are larger leaders. But my main point is that I have dealt wiht you andquaffer before about this and I was very direct with you about it. Oh and again sometimes the least loving thing is not rebuking someone. It would be like being a cop and not giving anyone speediing tickets because you want to love them. Not saying I am a spiritual cop. It is just an analogy of my point that sometimes the more loving thing is the stern thing.

Again, I say, correct the doctrine if you want to, but dont attack other fellow Christians just becos you think that your doctrines are right and others are wrong.

I will not belabour the point.

Again it is clear that we have vastly different definitions abot what constitutes an attack on someone.

 

[Andrew]

BTW Blackhawk,

WOF is accepted by the owner of this forum as a legitimate "denomination" just like any other, and calling any WOF preacher a heretic/false teacher is breaking the forum rules. So, the movt is here to stay, like it or not.

As posted by Erwin...

Not allowed: "Word of Faith preachers are false prophets"

 

[SavedByGrace3]

BTW Blackhawk,

WOF is accepted by the owner of this forum as a legitimate "denomination" just like any other, and calling any WOF preacher a heretic/false teacher is breaking the forum rules. So, the movt is here to stay, like it or not.

As posted by Erwin...

Not allowed: "Word of Faith preachers are false prophets"

Most of these "heresy hunter" types are better described as "heresy drive by shooters." They just pick up a heresy hunter book or visit a heresy hunter website and jump on the heresy hunter lynching wagon on it's way to it's next drive by stoning. Very few of these folks have taken the time to actually verify the accusations they toss around like confetti at a Independence Day parade. I have yet to meet one on these forums who can elucidate their position beyond quoting the book they read or cut and pasting from some heresy hunter website.
99% of the things they call "heresies" are not "heresies" at all because they do not cause a person to fall away from God or reject the gospel. They are just honest differences of opinion on a myriad of topics from Aaron to Zoe. They are certainly not issues worthy of disfellowshipping members of the body. If those who think WOF, Charismatic, and Pentecostal Christians are truly teaching heresy and are therefore heretics... they why do they continue to fellowship with them? Why do they not follow the NT admonitions to cast then out and even turn them over to satan to teach them not to blaspheme? Is it because they really do not believe what they are saying, and are just using these arguments in an attempt to control with fear and intimidation? I suspect this may be the case.

 

[Blackhawk]

BTW Blackhawk,

WOF is accepted by the owner of this forum as a legitimate "denomination" just like any other, and calling any WOF preacher a heretic/false teacher is breaking the forum rules. So, the movt is here to stay, like it or not.

As posted by Erwin...

Not allowed: "Word of Faith preachers are false prophets"

I know what has been decided. I still say some are not true men of God and teach heresy. This will be my final post about the subject and I will let the warnings come if they do.

 

[SavedByGrace3]

I know what has been decided. I still say some are not true men of God and teach heresy. This will be my final post about the subject and I will let the warnings come if they do.

And after that quick rata-tat-tat, the car speeds away.....

 

[MikeMcK]

..

 

[Grace_Alone4gives]

BTW Blackhawk,

WOF is accepted by the owner of this forum as a legitimate "denomination" just like any other, and calling any WOF preacher a heretic/false teacher is breaking the forum rules. So, the movt is here to stay, like it or not.

As posted by Erwin...

Not allowed: "Word of Faith preachers are false prophets

Allowed: The Word of Faith Movement has gone to far in some cases.....as long as scripture is provided - which it has been.

just a thought to consider. Perhaps we should word things differently - but as long as we do that - we can call it what it is. There is no rules against posting heresy if those posting it have informations to back it up - and scripture provided - which it has been.

 

[Grace_Alone4gives]

And after that quick rata-tat-tat, the car speeds away.....

very mature

 

[Grace_Alone4gives]

If those who think WOF, Charismatic, and Pentecostal Christians are truly teaching heresy and are therefore heretics... they why do they continue to fellowship with them?

Note - not all Charasmatics are WoF...infact, many are not. Regardless - I have friends who are WoF - still friends, and still brothers/sisters int he Lord - however, when the topic comes up - you bet your bottom dollar I speak up about what I feel scripture teaches on the contrary.

 

[MikeMcK]

very mature

You expected better?

 

[victoryword]

Allowed: The Word of Faith Movement has gone to far in some cases.....as long as scripture is provided - which it has been.

just a thought to consider. Perhaps we should word things differently - but as long as we do that - we can call it what it is. There is no rules against posting heresy if those posting it have informations to back it up - and scripture provided - which it has been.

Really?!!! I would certainly like to see where anyone provided any?

I guess us "not-so-good-at defending-our beliefs" Word-Faith advocates have not provided any Scriptuture, huh? Or if we did, you guys were able to provide the proper exegesis of the text, show us where we were misninterpretting it, and set us on the right path to true Biblical exposition. However, I still have failed to see it.

Well, could be the colors on this forum effecting my eye

 

[Grace_Alone4gives]

guess us "not-so-good-at defending-our beliefs" Word-Faith advocates have not provided any Scriptuture, huh? Or if we did, you guys were able to provide the proper exegesis of the text, show us where we were misninterpretting it, and set us on the right path to true Biblical exposition. However, I still have failed to see it.

No one said you haven't - the point is - so have those opposed to WoF - meaning, that they ARE ALLOWED to make a stance against it.

 

[billiefan2000]

http://www.raptureready.com/rap16.html



The Prophets of Profit

When humanity stands before the throne of God on Judgment Day, I strongly believe the Lord Jesus is going to first focus His attention on the leadership of the Church. If you listen to the garbage emanating from pulpits today, it is easy see why our nation has fallen into such a moral quagmire.

I often turn on my TV to have a random look at channels that carry religious programming. I do this to see what type of topics are being covered. I have observed that the majority of the messages being preached on the average Christian cable channels have something to do with the prosperity gospel. The Trinity Broadcasting Network appears to be the stronghold for money-centered theology.

The prosperity gospel goes by several names, and basically says that God wants you to be rich and have the best of everything. Millions of people are taught that if they follow the right plan, the Lord will meet all their material needs.

The wealth message always ends with the same punch line. In order for the blessing of God to be released, you need to send the preacher doing the talking a big fat donation. If God is the source of the blessings, I don’t see why these prophets of profit need to be offering this unrelenting sales pitch.

In recent years, there have been some shocking revelations of how some people have used the prosperity gospel to fatten their own wallets.

Joyce Meyer boldly says that, “God has made her rich.” This is true. She rakes in nearly $100 million each year, and has a $10 million corporate jet, a $107,000 silver-gray Mercedes sedan that she bought for her husband, a $20 million corporate headquarters, and a sprawling complex of luxury homes in Missouri valued at over $5 million. All blessings, she says, are “straight from the hand of God.”

Fred Price is another high-living evangelical superstar. He tells his audience, “I drive a Rolls Royce because I'm following Jesus' steps.” Price also has said, “It's easier to be persecuted while driving a Rolls Royce.”

Benny Hinn is another preacher with a $100 million annual income. He is a classic charlatan like most prosperity celebrities. Yes, Hinn has the private jets, the expensive cars, and the mansions like all the rest. What makes him stand out from the crowd is his unending stream of lies related to fund raising. On several occasions, Hinn has raised money for building projects that were never started.

I ran across a sad comment an atheist made about Hinn: “The reason that I say that this is evidence that God does not exist is that any decent God would strike Hinn into a smoldering pile of ashes for blasphemy, lying, and stealing money from desperate people.” That atheist may not see Benny Hinn get his fitting reward in this life, but I have no doubt that God will eventually catch up with Mr. Hinn.

It is scandalous for preachers to think that they can use their positions of authority for their own personal gain. I can’t see how the term "minister" can apply to some who operate large ministries and use the lion's share of the ministries' income to support lavish lifestyles.

I find it ironic that most of these hucksters come from denominations that believe in the soon return of Jesus Christ. If our eternal home is Heaven, then our focus should be on the world to come, and not on this corrupt earthly realm.

There is a core truth to the prosperity gospel: God loves to bless His faithful servants. However, striving for material rewards should never be put ahead of salvation and virtuous living.

"But seek first His Kingdom and his righteousness, and all these things will be given to you as well" (Mat. 6:33 NIV).

 

[Pentecostal_dude21]

As most of you have realized the Word of Faith movement is borrowed from false theologies such as Swedenborgism, Theosophy of thought, and Christian Science. This disturbing charismatic movement has deceived many believers due to the intense emotional appeal of notorious televangelists.

Recently, I was dialoguing with a Word of Faith believer and was shockingly told that I sounded like a pagan for criticising prophets such as Benny Hinn, and Kenneth Copeland. If there is anything that sounds pagan, it is the following Word of Faith beliefs that are adhered to with militant passion:

1. Jesus took on the "Satanic nature" and became a lost sinner in hell. He was held there "illegally" and became the first born again man.

2. The "force of faith" is used to be Blessed by God. Being poor or sick is a result of "lack."

3. Jesus was a wealthy man, who had a big mansion.

4. We are all "little gods" and "christs," who should act like kings of the earth (much like the Pharisees did.)

Friends, there is much more to be said concerning this paradigm in our beloved Christian Faith. Let us pray for the leaders and people caught in this movement, that their perverse theology would be revealed by the light of Christ. In Jesus Name.

 

[QuadraticEquation]

As most of you have realized the Word of Faith movement is borrowed from false theologies such as Swedenborgism, Theosophy of thought, and Christian Science. This disturbing charismatic movement has deceived many believers due to the intense emotional appeal of notorious televangelists.

Recently, I was dialoguing with a Word of Faith believer and was shockingly told that I sounded like a pagan for criticising prophets such as Benny Hinn, and Kenneth Copeland.

Your ignorance is showing. The Word of Faith movement was led by Kenneth Hagin, who drew from a number of sources. The preacher he quoted the most was Smith Wigglesworth, who was a pentecostal preacher and minister of divine healing. The allegations of his drawing from the theology of metaphysical cults are bogus. True, Hagin read books by Kenyon, but he didn't agree with everything Kenyon taught. Kenyon, incidentally, rejected the flaws in Christian Science. Hagin believed in basic Christian doctrine .... the virgin birth, the deity of Christ, original sin, justification by faith, holiness, a literal heaven and hell, the second coming, the trinity ... etc. He mainly differed from orthodoxy in his teachings on healing, prosperity, and the ministry of the Holy Spirit, none of which are essential doctrines of the faith. Disagree with Word of Faith teaching if you want, but at least accurately portray what it is. Much of the allegations that you mentioned are simply taken from books by Haneggraff and other similar critics and aren't based on anything Hagin ever said.

Also, Benny Hinn is not Word of Faith and is on record stating as much. If your WOF friend believes that he is then he's as ignorant as you are.

 

[Entertaining_Angels]

If your WOF friend believes that he is then he's as ignorant as you are.

Wow, was that really necessary?

I'm new to these boards and am really enjoying it but we seem to have some of the most unchristian attitudes here as well. That is disheartening.
I for one believe we can debate any topic without namecalling or putting others down but I wonder if I'm in the minority here.

 

[JVD]

Here is a video clip of Copeland and Howard-Browne "joking in tongues". You may have to scroll down toward the bottom of this video collection to find it.

http://www.bible.ca/tongues-audio-video-documentation.htm#tacf

There obviously is a lot more to this meeting than just this clip. And perhaps there was an interpretation to the tongues given.

Admittedly, this site has a very negative slant toward WOF and "signs and wonders" but it does cause one to reflect on whether this stuff is really of God. I personally think most of it is hypnosis of one kind or another. Please notice that when Peter Popoff lays his hands on people...they are "slain in the spirit"...and this is when his wife is speaking to him over a radio letting him know about peoples ailments so that he can "heal" them.

 

[QuadraticEquation]

I for one believe we can debate any topic without namecalling or putting others down but I wonder if I'm in the minority here.

As Mark Twain once said, everybody's ignorant ... just about different things. Saying that somebody is ignorant isn't the same as saying they're stupid. It simply means that they are uninformed or misinformed and don't have sufficient facts to be voicing a valid opinion. When somebody says that Word of Faith theology comes from new thought metaphysical religions they're ignorant. Or perhaps misinformed. Or perhaps dishonest. Take your pick. Whatever you choose, they are wrong. I have read most of Kenneth Hagin's books. I attended his school. I've been to his seminars and crusades. The man did not teach mind science. He did not teach that it's wrong to use medicine or visit a doctor. He did not teach that greed is godliness. These are simply baseless allegations hurled at him by people who don't like what he taught.

Rather than debate the scriptural basis for Word of Faith theology they resort to guilt by association tactics ... find some association with a cult member and brand them heretics. McConnell did this in his book "A Different Gospel" when he claimed that Kenyon studied in Boston and there was a lot of new thought theology being taught in Boston around that time. Conclusion? Kenyon was a heretic and Hagin took his teaching from Kenyon (which is also wrong) so he's a heretic too. I don't agree with everything Hagin said but I think I'm qualified to accurately relate what he taught.

Was it necessary to point out the ignorance in that post? Perhaps not. Was it necessary to post such ignorance in the first place? Definitely not.

 

[Entertaining_Angels]

Now I do disagree with you, Quad, but I only spend two decades with these teachings and didn't attend Rhema. I now do not like what he taught. I DO base what he taught on scriptures and find them coming up short. I have no doubt that some may find me ignorant for what I say. I have a good friend who came out of the mormon church and she is treated the same way by those in the mormon church. It's difficult to leave a WOF church because you get everybody telling you "God spoke to them and this is where you need to be." If you don't believe this is true, try leaving.

Anyhow, I know you did not direct those comments to me and I do know that not everybody posted against the WOF movement is true. However, I do know there is truth in the posts given by people who have been associated with the movement in some way.

And, no matter what you believe, putting somebody down is never okay but, I'll tell you what, I sure found a lot of that (and am still finding it) in the WOF church I knew. I hated it and still do. Instead of posting attacks on author's here, you'd be far better served by defending your position with facts.

God bless.

 

[QuadraticEquation]

Now I do disagree with you, Quad, but I only spend two decades with these teachings and didn't attend Rhema. I now do not like what he taught. I DO base what he taught on scriptures and find them coming up short. I have no doubt that some may find me ignorant for what I say. I have a good friend who came out of the mormon church and she is treated the same way by those in the mormon church. It's difficult to leave a WOF church because you get everybody telling you "God spoke to them and this is where you need to be." If you don't believe this is true, try leaving.

Anyhow, I know you did not direct those comments to me and I do know that not everybody posted against the WOF movement is true. However, I do know there is truth in the posts given by people who have been associated with the movement in some way.

And, no matter what you believe, putting somebody down is never okay but, I'll tell you what, I sure found a lot of that (and am still finding it) in the WOF church I knew. I hated it and still do. Instead of posting attacks on author's here, you'd be far better served by defending your position with facts.

Nothing wrong with saying you disagree with what Kenneth Hagin taught. I didn't agree with everything myself. The problem I have is when people assert that his teaching was based on metaphysical/mind science theology, which is hogwash. Hagin's biggest influence was no doubt Smith Wigglesworth, who was a pentecostal preacher with a healing ministry in the first half of the 20th century.

As for leaving a WOF chuch, I've been there and done that. I spent 3 years in a Presbyterian church from 1999-2002. Nobody had a word from God that I should return. Sorry if something like that happened to you, but I don't think it's right to stereotype faith people because of your experience. The fact is, Kenneth Hagin taught extensively on the need to be led by the Holy Sprit and not prophecy. Numerous times he said that if somebody gives you a "word from the Lord" and it doesn't agree with your spirit then you should disregard it.

You apparently can't see pointing out ignorance as anything but a put-down. I consider it correction. If you want me to defend my position I'll gladly address any issue you might raise. The issue I was addressing (that Kenneth Hagin took his teaching from metaphysical cults) was supported by facts. Hagin is on record saying he doesn't agree with everything Kenyon taught. Kenyon disavowed the errors taught by the metaphysical cults. These are facts. Facts ignored by the authors of the anti-faith books pentecostal_dude was citing in his post.

You want more facts? Hannegraff's book is full of misrepresentations, distortions, guilt-by-association, straw man arguments, and taking people out of context. He claims that Hagin taught reincarnation which is absurd. He claims that faith people promote a belief in astral projection which is equally absurd. He tries to link Benny Hinn to the WOF movement despite the fact that Hinn has rejected WOF theology. He calls WOF teaching heresy despite the fact that it doesn't violate any of the essential doctrines of the Christian faith. He insists that faith people teach that you should have faith in your faith rather than faith in God which is also wrong. I could go on and on but you the the idea. People who buy into such rubbish are ignorant and need to be set straight. Again, disagree all you want. I really don't care. But have the decency to get educated first and then disagree based on facts instead of misinformation being published by people who make money by stirring up controversy to sell their books and tapes.

-Quad