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LouisBooth
Well-Known Member
The quotes say otherwise..I am going to listen to the tapes that come with the book..it is them on tape saying these things...
"Perhaps you misunderstand what was written."
Did you want me to quote them? This is what they say Z..weather they believe it or not they are preaching it.
From copelands mouth, "He accepted the sin nature of Satan in his own Spirit...Why do you think Moses, upon instruction of God, raised the serpent upon that pole instead of a lamb? That used to bug me. I said, " Why in the world would you want to put a snake up there-the signe of Satan? Why didn't you put a lamb on that pole" and the Lord said, "because it was a sign of satan that was hanging on the cross."
If that is not enough let me give on a quote from copeland ..."Satan conqured Jesus on the cross."
I'll let this one speak for itself..sufice to say that satan didn't conqure Jesus and he never will.
and from Hagin, "Man was created on terms of equality with God, and he could stand in God's presence without any consciousness of inferiority."
We are not God...and we never were..we are created in the image of God...Like I said Z...they may deny this..but they ARE preaching this.
"Perhaps you misunderstand what was written."
Did you want me to quote them? This is what they say Z..weather they believe it or not they are preaching it.
From copelands mouth, "He accepted the sin nature of Satan in his own Spirit...Why do you think Moses, upon instruction of God, raised the serpent upon that pole instead of a lamb? That used to bug me. I said, " Why in the world would you want to put a snake up there-the signe of Satan? Why didn't you put a lamb on that pole" and the Lord said, "because it was a sign of satan that was hanging on the cross."
If that is not enough let me give on a quote from copeland ..."Satan conqured Jesus on the cross."
I'll let this one speak for itself..sufice to say that satan didn't conqure Jesus and he never will.
and from Hagin, "Man was created on terms of equality with God, and he could stand in God's presence without any consciousness of inferiority."
We are not God...and we never were..we are created in the image of God...Like I said Z...they may deny this..but they ARE preaching this.
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zamar
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2 Corinthians 5:21
For He (God) hath made him (Jesus) to be sin for us who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.
Z
For He (God) hath made him (Jesus) to be sin for us who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.
Z
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carma
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And you believe that verse means that Jesus became sin?
That verse means that Jesus took on the sin of the world...he took it to pay the price for it, he was completely and always without sin.
He was the innocent lamb, just as the OT sacrifices, that died for something He never did.
That verse means that Jesus took on the sin of the world...he took it to pay the price for it, he was completely and always without sin.
He was the innocent lamb, just as the OT sacrifices, that died for something He never did.
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zamar
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That is what it says. He was made sin, So that we would be made righteous. (the greek word for made is defined as "make or do") deep huh?
Regarding the Hagin statement Louie, You need to look at the definition of Righteous. Bro. Hagin did not say that we are God. He said the we are made righteous. The ability to stand in the presence of God without a sence of guilt or inferiority (Not because of what we have done, our righteousness is as filthy rags, but by what Jesus did.)
The Greek word for righteousness in this verse is defined as (equality or equal) Not that we are God we are not but we have access to God as His children (HIS CHILDREN)
Gee, I'm not equal to my natural Father, But I bear his name and I can walk into his house anytime and tell Him I love Him and he always receives me.
Kinda like the verse of scripture in Hebrews that says, "Come boldly before the Throne of Grace and receive mercy and Grace in time of need" RIGHTEOUSNESS = Family
Regarding Copeland......what is the nature of satan? is it sin? Did the Father turn His back on Jesus while He (Jesus )was on the cross? WHY? What Could The Father not look at? Why did Jesus go from calling God "Father" to calling him God? Was their fellowship broken at that point? I believe so, what broke the fellowship? Perhaps it was the sins of the world.
Did Jesus take the sin? Yes In fact The word says that He became sin. That we would become righteous.
(The key here is Jesus (the man) became sin, Not Christ (the Son).
Z
Regarding the Hagin statement Louie, You need to look at the definition of Righteous. Bro. Hagin did not say that we are God. He said the we are made righteous. The ability to stand in the presence of God without a sence of guilt or inferiority (Not because of what we have done, our righteousness is as filthy rags, but by what Jesus did.)
The Greek word for righteousness in this verse is defined as (equality or equal) Not that we are God we are not but we have access to God as His children (HIS CHILDREN)
Gee, I'm not equal to my natural Father, But I bear his name and I can walk into his house anytime and tell Him I love Him and he always receives me.
Kinda like the verse of scripture in Hebrews that says, "Come boldly before the Throne of Grace and receive mercy and Grace in time of need" RIGHTEOUSNESS = Family
Regarding Copeland......what is the nature of satan? is it sin? Did the Father turn His back on Jesus while He (Jesus )was on the cross? WHY? What Could The Father not look at? Why did Jesus go from calling God "Father" to calling him God? Was their fellowship broken at that point? I believe so, what broke the fellowship? Perhaps it was the sins of the world.
Did Jesus take the sin? Yes In fact The word says that He became sin. That we would become righteous.
(The key here is Jesus (the man) became sin, Not Christ (the Son).
Z
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carma
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zamar,
Jesus the man was without sin, scripture tells us that He was tempted just as we were, He could understand that temptation, yet He sinned not.
Jesus the man did not have the stain of sin, He paid for all sin.
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zamar
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Carma, your opinions are wonderful but you need to read your bible. All I did was post scripture and definitions from Strong's concordance.
Your arguement is with the word of God not me. 2 Cor 5:21 states that He BECAME sin. It says He became sin so that we would BECOME the righteousness of God in Christ Jesus.
Was He without sin ? Yes HE was until He was nailed to the cross and at that point all of the sin of manfind was layed on him and He took it to the grave, He paid the price. (The wages of sin is death).
Did He deserve the sin? no... Do we deserve his righteousness? NO But He has given it.
Z
Your arguement is with the word of God not me. 2 Cor 5:21 states that He BECAME sin. It says He became sin so that we would BECOME the righteousness of God in Christ Jesus.
Was He without sin ? Yes HE was until He was nailed to the cross and at that point all of the sin of manfind was layed on him and He took it to the grave, He paid the price. (The wages of sin is death).
Did He deserve the sin? no... Do we deserve his righteousness? NO But He has given it.
Z
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LouisBooth
Well-Known Member
First of all Z you didn't read those verses did you? In order to be a sacrifice it had to be perfect..perfect always..Jesus took on our sins..he didn't become sin. There is a difference. If he became sin he would cease to be God..because God cannot sin...get it? Look at deu. 15:21 If an animal has a defect, is lame or bline, or has ANY serious flaw (ie for Christ to become sin he has then a serious flaw) you must not sacrifice it to the Lord your God. Do some OT work my friend. If you think Jesus became evil on the cross you are wrong. Actually if you look at that verse it is better translated that he became a sin offereing..now knowing that read the OT instructions for a sin offereing. Paul was a Jew..he knew the sacrifice system..so why not read it and see what it says about a sacrifice having sin (ie imperfection).
As for that statement made by copeland..Jesus was NOT conquored on the cross. I know you feel compasion to your leaders but they are wrong Z. Go get the book and decide for yourself..then we can talk. I can name many many other WOF people that have scary statements..the leaders among these are Hagan and copeland. Brother please see their teaching for what they are...false. It is not all false..but it is that last sentence that can twist truth to a lie...remember that Z.
As for that statement made by copeland..Jesus was NOT conquored on the cross. I know you feel compasion to your leaders but they are wrong Z. Go get the book and decide for yourself..then we can talk. I can name many many other WOF people that have scary statements..the leaders among these are Hagan and copeland. Brother please see their teaching for what they are...false. It is not all false..but it is that last sentence that can twist truth to a lie...remember that Z.
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carma
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zamar,
My opinion????
If you don't recognize scripture when it is paraphrased, then from now on, I will spell it out, complete with address for you.
We are to rightly divide the word and saying that Jesus the man became sin flies against scripture.
In the OT sacrifical system, which is a shadow & type of Christ, the animal did not become their sin, the animal paid the price for sin, because blood had to be shed for sin. The animal's blood was shed instead of the person's.
Same with Christ, His blood was shed to WASH away our sin, which the OT sacrifices never did, they only covered the sin for a year.
I would like to know what you say about the "conquered at the cross" bit.
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zamar
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So now you are both going to condemn me for quoting a verse of scripture? I know the OT sacrificial system, I also know and can read what Paul wrote. I also know that He wrote that He became sin (Notice Louis I did not say evil nor did I imply evil).
Carma,
Regarding the conquered at the cross statement.... I disagree with Copeland, I do not blindly follow either man, I read the word for myself and attempt to live my life according to it. I do not condemn either of you for your beliefs do I? No I quoted scripture.
I would like to know why all of a sudden you feel the need to strike out at me? Your comments towards me have been rather sharp lately. I wonder why?
Z
Carma,
Regarding the conquered at the cross statement.... I disagree with Copeland, I do not blindly follow either man, I read the word for myself and attempt to live my life according to it. I do not condemn either of you for your beliefs do I? No I quoted scripture.
I would like to know why all of a sudden you feel the need to strike out at me? Your comments towards me have been rather sharp lately. I wonder why?
Z
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zamar
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I did not say that I believe that Jesus became either evil or that He took on the nature of satan.
I did post a verse of scripture and you both started to refute it with OT verse.
Neither of you asked me what I believe, you just jumped on me for not agreeing with you regarding the WOF folks.
I do believe that Jesus became the SIN SACRIFICE for us. When The High Priest layed His hands on the spotless lamb, He (The Priest ) symbolically imparted the sin of Isreal into the lamb. The lamb was then slain, paying the price for the sin. Is this the type and shadow of Jesus on the cross?
Did Jesus live a sinless life? Of course He did. I never implyed that he didn't. My whole point was to show that Jesus (according to the word) became sin and not became evil (as posted by Louis).
Again, If I have offended either of you (and I know that I have) I ask your forgiveness. It isn't my intention to stir up strife.
Z
I did post a verse of scripture and you both started to refute it with OT verse.
Neither of you asked me what I believe, you just jumped on me for not agreeing with you regarding the WOF folks.
I do believe that Jesus became the SIN SACRIFICE for us. When The High Priest layed His hands on the spotless lamb, He (The Priest ) symbolically imparted the sin of Isreal into the lamb. The lamb was then slain, paying the price for the sin. Is this the type and shadow of Jesus on the cross?
Did Jesus live a sinless life? Of course He did. I never implyed that he didn't. My whole point was to show that Jesus (according to the word) became sin and not became evil (as posted by Louis).
Again, If I have offended either of you (and I know that I have) I ask your forgiveness. It isn't my intention to stir up strife.
Z
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carma
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Please show me where we have condemned you and jumped on you.
Is sin evil or not?
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zamar
Guest
Again, I apologize if I have offended either of you. I did not wish to stir up strife.
Z
Z
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LouisBooth
Well-Known Member
No Z its okay..I just started to worry about you thats all. I wasn't try to condemn but correct. Jesus took on the punishment of our sin, he didn't become sin. The sin sacrifice was used to transfer sins from a human to the animal. Jesus did not become sin (which is evil by the way 
) but he took on the sins. There is a small difference but a big one..that is how false teaching usually works Z I wasn't refuting that verse. I clairified the translation of it. You said it should be translated he became sin..I said it should be translated he became a sin sacrifice. For he did not become sin..but the sacrifice nessisary to cleanse it. Small difference in words but a big one in implication. Grace and peace to you my friend..and I am sorry if I sounded condemning..I sure didn't mean to..just wanted to address it.
) but he took on the sins. There is a small difference but a big one..that is how false teaching usually works Z I wasn't refuting that verse. I clairified the translation of it. You said it should be translated he became sin..I said it should be translated he became a sin sacrifice. For he did not become sin..but the sacrifice nessisary to cleanse it. Small difference in words but a big one in implication. Grace and peace to you my friend..and I am sorry if I sounded condemning..I sure didn't mean to..just wanted to address it.
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Pastor Carl
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There is much being argued about here concerning many ministers of the Word of God. The word "heresy" keeps cropping up especially by those who love to quote Mr. Hank H. I do not mean that derogitorily for neither am I hook, line and sinker in the WOF(sounds like a wrestling organization) camp either.
I have many wonderful pastor brothers who are in both camps and I love them dearly. I say this to make one point. Most of what is being argued about is symantics. Yes, symantics. Scripture plainly tells us that "He became sin for us". No matter how you look at it the greek is correct. I would draw the line at Jesus was conquered by Satan, however.
Concerning faith. Is words important. You bet!! Jesus said. "If you have the faith of a grain of mustard seed, you can SAY (speak to) this mountain...." Does that mean we can confess just anything to come into existance for our greedy little selves? No.
But the most important thing here is that so many Christians wish to throw the baby out with the bathwater so to speak. None of these pastors, evangelists, etc., have uttered a word of heresy. What is heresy? That which denies: (1) There is one God manifest in three(Father, Son, & Holy Ghost). (2) Jesus was God come in the flesh. (3) Jesus suffered and died to give us eternal life, and it is by grace through faith. (4) God raised Him from the dead. (5) Jesus is Lord.
Other doctrines are irrelevant. One God, one Saviour. If we condemned every Christian because they did not believe exactly as we do, there would be only one person on this message board. Last one wins. You may disagree with a lot of the rhetoric preached by the WOF people, and that is OK, but you cannot call it heresy. Every one of their Statements of Faith in their Charters falls in line with the doctrine of every major evangelical church in the country.
If one believes that Jesus was rich, does that make him a heretic? No. Debatable? Yes. Is believing in the pretrib rapture theory(I do) the only doctrine that will get you into heaven? No. Unfortunately, I know some who believe that. Is the baptist doctrine of "once-saved, always saved" a required belief for salvation? No. Debatable? Yes.
The body of Christ spends far too much time criticizing others who do not believe just as they do, and miss opportunities right in front of their faces to lead others to Christ. We'd rather argue over stupid doctrinal differences than win a soul to Christ. No wonder the world looks at us and says, "Why would I want to become involved with Christianity?"
Hank Hannigraaf is saved. Kenneth Hagen is saved. Ken Copeland is saved. Paul Crouch is saved. Benny Hinn is saved. E.W Kenyon is home with the Lord. T > Jakes is saved. Pope John Paul is saved. Billy Graham is saved. John Hagee is saved. They are all saved. They all preach salvation by grace through faith in Jesus Christ alone. I do not need to agree with all of what they teach nor do they have to agree with me in all that I preach in order for us to call each other "Brothers in the Lord".
If you do not like what a particular preacher is teaching on, then don't listen to them or better still....take the good parts of what they teach into your spirit and discard what you feel is wrong. I have done that many times with messages preached by other ministers. I inwardly disagreed with them over a particular point. But you know what? I put that point on a back burner a couple of times and years later as I was reading the Word, God showed me that these points that I believed were in error were actually right.
We've got too much work to do for the kingdom of God to go about badmouthing our brothers and sisters in Christ. It's OK to disagree, but it's wrong to allow division and strife to enter into the body. It's a disease like a cancer and destroys many peoples lives. Do not be a part of it.
God bless you all.
I have many wonderful pastor brothers who are in both camps and I love them dearly. I say this to make one point. Most of what is being argued about is symantics. Yes, symantics. Scripture plainly tells us that "He became sin for us". No matter how you look at it the greek is correct. I would draw the line at Jesus was conquered by Satan, however.
Concerning faith. Is words important. You bet!! Jesus said. "If you have the faith of a grain of mustard seed, you can SAY (speak to) this mountain...." Does that mean we can confess just anything to come into existance for our greedy little selves? No.
But the most important thing here is that so many Christians wish to throw the baby out with the bathwater so to speak. None of these pastors, evangelists, etc., have uttered a word of heresy. What is heresy? That which denies: (1) There is one God manifest in three(Father, Son, & Holy Ghost). (2) Jesus was God come in the flesh. (3) Jesus suffered and died to give us eternal life, and it is by grace through faith. (4) God raised Him from the dead. (5) Jesus is Lord.
Other doctrines are irrelevant. One God, one Saviour. If we condemned every Christian because they did not believe exactly as we do, there would be only one person on this message board. Last one wins. You may disagree with a lot of the rhetoric preached by the WOF people, and that is OK, but you cannot call it heresy. Every one of their Statements of Faith in their Charters falls in line with the doctrine of every major evangelical church in the country.
If one believes that Jesus was rich, does that make him a heretic? No. Debatable? Yes. Is believing in the pretrib rapture theory(I do) the only doctrine that will get you into heaven? No. Unfortunately, I know some who believe that. Is the baptist doctrine of "once-saved, always saved" a required belief for salvation? No. Debatable? Yes.
The body of Christ spends far too much time criticizing others who do not believe just as they do, and miss opportunities right in front of their faces to lead others to Christ. We'd rather argue over stupid doctrinal differences than win a soul to Christ. No wonder the world looks at us and says, "Why would I want to become involved with Christianity?"
Hank Hannigraaf is saved. Kenneth Hagen is saved. Ken Copeland is saved. Paul Crouch is saved. Benny Hinn is saved. E.W Kenyon is home with the Lord. T
> Jakes is saved. Pope John Paul is saved. Billy Graham is saved. John Hagee is saved. They are all saved. They all preach salvation by grace through faith in Jesus Christ alone. I do not need to agree with all of what they teach nor do they have to agree with me in all that I preach in order for us to call each other "Brothers in the Lord". If you do not like what a particular preacher is teaching on, then don't listen to them or better still....take the good parts of what they teach into your spirit and discard what you feel is wrong. I have done that many times with messages preached by other ministers. I inwardly disagreed with them over a particular point. But you know what? I put that point on a back burner a couple of times and years later as I was reading the Word, God showed me that these points that I believed were in error were actually right.
We've got too much work to do for the kingdom of God to go about badmouthing our brothers and sisters in Christ. It's OK to disagree, but it's wrong to allow division and strife to enter into the body. It's a disease like a cancer and destroys many peoples lives. Do not be a part of it.
God bless you all.
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Rainbow Promises
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I used to be really big into the Word of Faith movement, and Kenneth Hagin especially. Heh, my pastor named his son Hagin after the man. Anyways, I was very interested when I found this thread, and I just wanted to toss something in.
"The gold filling thing is not a W.O.F. thing. it was reported in Charisma Magazine (NOT WORD OF FAITH) it supposedly happened in a charismatic (not W.O.F.) church."
By the same token, please don't anyone assume that magazine speaks for the entire Charismatic movement. I am Charismatic but our church is independant and I get frustrated when people generalize.
I was surprised not to see Joyce Meyer in this list. Isn't she considered Word of Faith?
As far as Rod Parsley...I never did like him anyways...he yells too much!
"The gold filling thing is not a W.O.F. thing. it was reported in Charisma Magazine (NOT WORD OF FAITH) it supposedly happened in a charismatic (not W.O.F.) church."
By the same token, please don't anyone assume that magazine speaks for the entire Charismatic movement. I am Charismatic but our church is independant and I get frustrated when people generalize.
I was surprised not to see Joyce Meyer in this list. Isn't she considered Word of Faith?
As far as Rod Parsley...I never did like him anyways...he yells too much!
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LouisBooth
Well-Known Member
Pator..just like I AND HANK BOTH SAID we know there are people that are saved on both sides of the fences but we ARE to be on the look out for false teaching. Faith is not stronger then God, Jesus was not conquered by Satan..these and other things are advocated as truth by the people I have named. Not all their teaching is bad, I agree, but that is what false teachers do..they preach 12 lines of truth and add in that one line of false teaching. That is what we are to be on guard against..."if salt looses it saltiness how can it be made salty again?" DO NOT DILUTE THE WORD OF GOD. That is exactly what these men do and that is why I preach against their teaching.
we know there are people that are saved on both sides of the fences but we ARE to be on the look out for false teaching. Faith is not stronger then God, Jesus was not conquered by Satan..these and other things are advocated as truth by the people I have named. Not all their teaching is bad, I agree, but that is what false teachers do..they preach 12 lines of truth and add in that one line of false teaching. That is what we are to be on guard against..."if salt looses it saltiness how can it be made salty again?" DO NOT DILUTE THE WORD OF GOD. That is exactly what these men do and that is why I preach against their teaching.
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zamar
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Louis,
Give it a rest. Hank has not cornered the market on truth. He makes mistakes just like everyone else. ( He is currently being accused of plagurism himself)
Your opinions about the above topic are just that, opinions.
Z
Give it a rest. Hank has not cornered the market on truth. He makes mistakes just like everyone else. ( He is currently being accused of plagurism himself)
Your opinions about the above topic are just that, opinions.
Z
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LouisBooth
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"Your opinions about the above topic are just that, opinions. "
Umm..I don't think so..its pretty clear to me that these guys say some things that just don't line up with the bible. I didnt say Hank was a superhuman He did document his book very very well though..if you get it you can read it for yourself. I'll get you more quotes if you want? I don't think Hank has cornered the market on truth but he is a man that will hold people accountable to what they teach. If I say Jesus isn't God to the youth I teach I would expect them to call me on it and prove to me biblically (as I did to you about their teachings) that I am wrong. That is what loosing your saltiness is all about. You should ALWAYS go home and check your pastor biblically. If you aren't you're not doing your job as a christian
Umm..I don't think so..its pretty clear to me that these guys say some things that just don't line up with the bible. I didnt say Hank was a superhuman
He did document his book very very well though..if you get it you can read it for yourself. I'll get you more quotes if you want? I don't think Hank has cornered the market on truth but he is a man that will hold people accountable to what they teach. If I say Jesus isn't God to the youth I teach I would expect them to call me on it and prove to me biblically (as I did to you about their teachings) that I am wrong. That is what loosing your saltiness is all about. You should ALWAYS go home and check your pastor biblically. If you aren't you're not doing your job as a christian
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