word of faith apologetists

Pavel Mosko

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I think the late John Paul Jackson might be closest thing to what your trying to find, and he wasn't strictly word of Faith but general Charismatic.

WOF doesn't lend itself to formal Apologetics, theology, etc. based on my experience of it in the 90s, outside of proof texting and preaching on specific verses etc. Although, I guess there probably are some Oral Roberts University graduates (folks that don't have a lot of fame) that would probably also fit the OP.



 
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Daniel Marsh

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Pavel Mosko

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It's interesting. I almost thought that was a very recent work and an Ebook only to boot, but poking around it looks like it came out back in 2008 in paper/hard back form 1st.


Interesting reading the synopsis etc. There is no doubt that many critics do hatchet jobs on WOF to make it look as heretical as possible. But I believe WOF does deserve a certain amount of criticism. They have taken so many things like positive and negative confession to such extremes that it goes beyond stuff found in the Bible, actually to the level of superstition etc.
 
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Daniel Marsh

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It's interesting. I almost thought that was a very recent work and an Ebook only to boot, but poking around it looks like it came out back in 2008 in paper/hard back form 1st.


Interesting reading the synopsis etc. There is no doubt that many critics do hatchet jobs on WOF to make it look as heretical as possible. But I believe WOF does deserve a certain amount of criticism. They have taken so many things like positive and negative confession to such extremes that it goes beyond stuff found in the Bible, actually to the level of superstition etc.

Thanks Dude,
Daniel
 
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hhodgson

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Who are the best WOF apologetists? What books have they written? any debates on dvd or cd?

Hi Daniel, here's more about Rod Saunders on his web page and close to a hundred teaching videos. He's actually a regular here and goes by Simon the Tanner. He sneaks in here once in a while and he did drop in a few weeks ago. He's definitely very busy in his work.

About Jew and Greek

Jew and Greek

I hope these two come through alright.


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Pavel Mosko

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Well I've been listening to Simon Tanner / Jew and Greek. In some ways, he is doing a ministry similar to what I might have done if I stuck with WOF and/or the Prophetic movement aka NAR.

I think he however has his work cut out for him! Church culture is probably the biggest problem.


1) Their are problems with a radical Bible Alone approach, dubbed "Solo Scriptura" in the article/link below. Jew and Greek does not fit this, but most WOF do (based at least what was true of places like Rhema Bible Training Center etc.).

A Critique of the Evangelical Doctrine of Solo Scriptura


2) Their is a hostility to theology etc. at least in the movements past. e.g. - Ken Hagin and other people making disparaging jokes about getting college degrees etc.


3) Likewise Bible training Centers like Rhema pride themselves on giving you primarily "useful hands on education" etc. as far as preaching, Bible study, spiritual gift courses. (Theology often does not qualify for this in the short run in many people's minds, it is only in the long term when people get into problems where people see its value).


4) A culture of sensationalism etc. Heresy hunters cherry pick quotes for their own agenda etc. but I've personally seen some sloppy sermons that had some heretical implications at face value and these came from a shoot from the hip approach to preaching. While you shouldn't rush to condemn people as heretics etc. teachers are to held accountable for their teaching.
 
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now faith

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Well I've been listening to Simon Tanner / Jew and Greek. In some ways, he is doing a ministry similar to what I might have done if I stuck with WOF and/or the Prophetic movement aka NAR.

I think he however has his work cut out for him! Church culture is probably the biggest problem.


1) Their are problems with a radical Bible Alone approach, dubbed "Solo Scriptura" in the article/link below. Jew and Greek does not fit this, but most WOF do (based at least what was true of places like Rhema Bible Training Center etc.).

A Critique of the Evangelical Doctrine of Solo Scriptura


2) Their is a hostility to theology etc. at least in the movements past. e.g. - Ken Hagin and other people making disparaging jokes about getting college degrees etc.


3) Likewise Bible training Centers like Rhema pride themselves on giving you primarily "useful hands on education" etc. as far as preaching, Bible study, spiritual gift courses. (Theology often does not qualify for this in the short run in many people's minds, it is only in the long term when people get into problems where people see its value).


4) A culture of sensationalism etc. Heresy hunters cherry pick quotes for their own agenda etc. but I've personally seen some sloppy sermons that had some heretical implications at face value and these came from a shoot from the hip approach to preaching. While you shouldn't rush to condemn people as heretics etc. teachers are to held accountable for their teaching.


Rod Saunders has a network of friends that minister World wide.
His founding group members plant Churches in places that are hostile to Christianity.
Huge numbers of people have found Christ World wide due to Rod Saunders and the finest Evangelists I have ever seen.
I am privileged to know them and,I will not share who they are.
Rod is used to criticism, if He decides it's worth while I'm sure He can answer any questions you may have.
 
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now faith

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It's interesting. I almost thought that was a very recent work and an Ebook only to boot, but poking around it looks like it came out back in 2008 in paper/hard back form 1st.


Interesting reading the synopsis etc. There is no doubt that many critics do hatchet jobs on WOF to make it look as heretical as possible. But I believe WOF does deserve a certain amount of criticism. They have taken so many things like positive and negative confession to such extremes that it goes beyond stuff found in the Bible, actually to the level of superstition etc.

You are right,
Word of Faith is not the only group that gets slandered on YouTube.
I do not know how much false information is continually spewed out by some fake Theologians.
Recently a watchdog group did a smear on Reinhard Bonnke.
What they said I will not repeat, it was one of the cruelest smears I have ever watched.
In my opinion He was one of the greatest Evangelists of our time.
Millions of people confessed Christ in His Africa crusades.
I personally think when you attack someone God has called you are on dangerous ground.
 
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Simon the Tanner

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Well I've been listening to Simon Tanner / Jew and Greek. In some ways, he is doing a ministry similar to what I might have done if I stuck with WOF and/or the Prophetic movement aka NAR.

I think he however has his work cut out for him! Church culture is probably the biggest problem.


1) Their are problems with a radical Bible Alone approach, dubbed "Solo Scriptura" in the article/link below. Jew and Greek does not fit this, but most WOF do (based at least what was true of places like Rhema Bible Training Center etc.).

A Critique of the Evangelical Doctrine of Solo Scriptura


2) Their is a hostility to theology etc. at least in the movements past. e.g. - Ken Hagin and other people making disparaging jokes about getting college degrees etc.


3) Likewise Bible training Centers like Rhema pride themselves on giving you primarily "useful hands on education" etc. as far as preaching, Bible study, spiritual gift courses. (Theology often does not qualify for this in the short run in many people's minds, it is only in the long term when people get into problems where people see its value).


4) A culture of sensationalism etc. Heresy hunters cherry pick quotes for their own agenda etc. but I've personally seen some sloppy sermons that had some heretical implications at face value and these came from a shoot from the hip approach to preaching. While you shouldn't rush to condemn people as heretics etc. teachers are to held accountable for their teaching.

Your comments are valid for the most part. There is a certain amount of aversion to theology within the WoF world, but that's changing. Rhema has actually been conducting apologetics seminars in recent years. The former dean at Rhema, Tony Cooke, is earning a Masters Degree in theology specializing in church history.

I disagree with you on solo scriptura, however. Certainly WoF people have a high regard for the Bible and would hold to sola scriptura as the Reformers defined it (not as modern Calvinist/Cessationists like Justin Peters define it, saying God only speaks through His Word), but we also take into consideration what others have received by revelation, and what we experience, and what has been learned throughout church history by others. Kenneth Hagin used to quote Finney, Spurgeon, Luther ... etc. And I don't recall hearing Kenneth Hagin make disparaging remarks about getting a seminary education. To the contrary, he seemed to regret that he didn't go to seminary because Pentecostal people back then were saying that Jesus was coming back any day now and he didn't think he had time for school. His son, Pastor Ken Hagin Jr. attended Southwestern Assembly of God to study theology. Don't think he graduated but he did attend, because that's what he used as a guide for putting Rhema together.
 
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John Mullally

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Who are the best WOF apologetists? What books have they written? any debates on dvd or cd?

I would look at the works of Kenneth Hagin. WOF is not really a formal doctine. WOF term is from Roman 10:8 - but I don't hear people call themselves that.

My journey toward WOF is based upon trying to reconcile tough statements by Jesus (like John 14:13 and Mark 11:23-24) into something meaningful - which Kenneth Hagin did. Generally those tough verses are either ignored (even by many who proclaim Biblical inerrancy) or rationalized into something next to meaningless.
 
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Daniel Marsh

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I would look at the works of Kenneth Hagin. WOF is not really a formal doctine. WOF term is from Roman 10:8 - but I don't hear people call themselves that.

My journey toward WOF is based upon trying to reconcile tough statements by Jesus (like John 14:13 and Mark 11:23-24) into something meaningful - which Kenneth Hagin did. Generally those tough verses are either ignored (even by many who proclaim Biblical inerrancy) or rationalized into something next to meaningless.

Thanks John, the Mark passage is figure of speech. Not even Jesus made a mountain jump into the sea. For a mountain to hop in the sea would cause a massive titlewave wiping out a lot of people.
 
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hhodgson

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Rod Saunders has a network of friends that minister World wide.
His founding group members plant Churches in places that are hostile to Christianity.
Huge numbers of people have found Christ World wide due to Rod Saunders and the finest Evangelists I have ever seen.
I am privileged to know them and,I will not share who they are.
Rod is used to criticism, if He decides it's worth while I'm sure He can answer any questions you may have.

Must agree with you here nowfaith. Years ago I found and saved on my PC at least three very good apologetic theologians on Word of faith but over the years when my PC would give up the ghost on me a few times and most of the data I had just "poof" and disappeared. Now I have me a Dell 24 in one PC and if I were to goof it up drastically then I can simply hit the PC reset and (save the data) and I'll get a (new set) of Windows 10 in about 15 minutes. Don't tell nobody but I had to reset the new PC three times already.
nervous (2020_05_10 22_13_39 UTC).gif
I've had this PC just about a year... and love it.

When it comes to Rod Saunders 'aka' (Simon The Tanner)... I don't think there's anyone other then him that's doing WOF Apologetic's today through his youtube videos. Get this! the last I counted he has 162 videos. Almost unbelievable! He teaches WOF from every side. When he first started out I would try to keep up with him on PC youtube. Recently we purchased a new 4k BIG screen Tv that came with Smart TV apps. Now I got the ugly thing with extra large-size (youtube) in my living room. Rod's not really "that ugly." Actually, he's not ugly at all (like me). Ha! He'll probably read this post and just wanted to have a little fun with him.

He is doing a mar-vilest job. Sometime I'm going to spend some time and hopefully find the three other apologists that I had saved once. There's a software I found called "Everything" when downloaded it will find tons of stuff that I thought I lost forever. Awesome free software.

Your right about Rod, he can handle any criticism from WOF critics. I'm guessing he has some of them shaking in their boots. I can't wait till he can spend more time here on the forum. (This is for Rod)... If you need some financial support, just let us know. You have an awesome ministry. Nowfaith, I think you would agree also.

Harry...


Word-of-Faith (2020_05_10 22_13_39 UTC).gif
 
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now faith

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I agree Harry,it takes a lot of time and effort to undertake a task such as this.
Rod Has the ability to present the facts about unfounded criticism with a cool head.
He has done other work as well that is not about Word of Faith.
He recently put out a response to a Pastor ,who was just hateful about Kari Jobe.
Totaly false accusations.
It is nice to see someone stand up for the truth ,when people who are Christians are assaulted verbally.
The Video did have some Word of Faith people mentioned in a negative way.
For me personally I could not do what Rod does ,as you well know.
Politics Has certainly placed a divide in the Body today,its a good thing to have a Brother defending God.
God Bless You Harry.
 
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Daniel Marsh

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I do not have speakers nor the card. I am the type of person who reads systematic theologies. Rod should get together with seminary educated wof scholars to write a systematic theology to make it the standard. The first volume should be basic theology historic doctrines that all Christians agree on. volume two would cover basic pentecostal / charismatic theology going back to early church fathers that all in that fold agree on.
volume three would address distinctive WOF theology that all in that fold agrees on. Volume four would address specific misunderstood areas which would discuss specific leaders where they have gone astray and where they have corrected themselves. The main thing would be to do it on a scholarly level with out any "special personal revelations". volume five would discuss healing with historical stories. The first four volumes would avoid stories since many can not be verified. The first four volumes would have to be as objective as possible.
 
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