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Word-Faith?

Discussion in 'General Theology' started by Yekcidmij, Apr 3, 2003.

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  1. usadingo

    usadingo Member

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    Perhaps I'm a little confused at what you're getting at here. All I know is, the Bible calls us to test all things in light of scripture, so therefore my beliefs are formed, and continually shaped by checking them against the what the Bible says, and praying for guidance from God.

    I do believe in taking responsibility for our own actions. However, when a leader of a group twists scripture and tells people things like the more money you give, the more you'll get back. Or, if you have enough faith, you'll be healed, than the responsibility shifts.
    If you tell a little kid a glowing red burner on a stove isn't hot and they touch it, than it becomes your responsibility.
    Part of being a Christian is putting your faith and trust in God. If some leader says "God is saying you should do this" than that leader becomes responsibile.
    You've perfectly demonstrated one of the faults of the Word of Faith movement though. Someone follows the teachings of it's leaders, suffers, and they're told it's their own fault and to take responsibility. To an extent, it is, since they were in a sense, tricked. They should have examined what the word of God actually says. On the other hand, as Christians, we are not to do such things to people.
     
  2. SpiritPsalmist

    SpiritPsalmist Heavy lean toward Messianic Supporter

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    Yes, that is what I was saying. :)


    These are statements that ARE backed up by scripture. See Luke 6:38, Matt 9:29, and Luke 17:19. Jesus said those things so how can you say it is being twisted? There are qualifications though of which I mentioned. Not being coerced (which the Bible tells us not to give under), guilt and/or giving out of greed (if I give more I will get more. . .although that is a Biblical truth), but giving out of love and service to God and/or Him telling me to take the step of faith.


    Telling people what the scriptures say is not putting their lives in danger. God says, "My people perish for lack of knowledge". (Hosea 4:6)

    Huh? :scratch: All of being a Christian is putting ALL your faith and trust in God. Remember that little song. . ."the wise man builds his house upon the rock". No part of a house, built on sand, is a good foundation. It's all to be on the rock. Period.

    He's held responsible either way. . . if he's correct or if he's wrong. When we know the truth but withhold it, we are responsible. When we know the truth and deliberately distort it as to deceive, we are held responsible.

    However, if we tell the truth and the hearers don't hear correctly. . .it is out fault they don't hear right. All I can do is tell the truth to the best of my understanding. If someone does not like what they hear or they do not understand all I can do is pray for them that their ears will be opened.

    I'm sorry that you believe that is what I'm saying. It most certaintly is not. . .but. . .you're convinced otherwise. What more can I say.

    Tricked? By the enemy maybe. . .not by me. I do my very best to understand totally and thoroughly what the Word of God says before I teach something. I take great pains in explaining things in as much information as possible. . .sometimes to a fault. :) I have not "tricked" anyone.

    I agree. . . I don't plan to ever do such a thing to anyone. It hurts to have someone think that I would.

    I desire to see people set free from the lies of the enemy. I'm tired of seeing God's people beat up by the accuser and stumbling over things that were the basic teachings of Jesus. I tell people what the Word of God says. I back it up thoroughly with scripture. I've had to walk through this to ya know. And I'm still learning to walk through it.

    I know it probably sounds like I'm taking your words personally, and I guess in a way I am. . .'cause I know where my heart is at and I know how much I have searched the Word and worked the Word for myself. I am not a follower of WOF. I am a follower of Jesus and His Word. I have learned things in the Word that have set me free. . .and it is my desire to see others set free too.

    God's Word does not rest on my circumstances. It does not matter what my circumstances are. . .God's Word does not change. I stand on His Word and no matter how long it takes, I continue to stand until my circumstances change and/or I change. Whether the change occur here or there. . .at least I will go out believing.
     
  3. usadingo

    usadingo Member

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    You said "I believe that people are held accountable for what they choose to believe without checking it out or asking God for themselves."
    To me that sounds like someone shouldn't study the Bible to figure out what to believe. Something is not making sense to me. Please correct me on what you're saying.

    Luke 6:38- "Give, and it will be given to you. A good measure, pressed down, shaken together and running over, will be poured into your lap. For with the measure you use, it will be measured to you."
    Very good. You found a passage on judging people and how we need to be fair, acting in love. Many teachers take this passage though to mean if you give money, God will give it back to you.
    Consider the woman at the well. She put in two coins, and Jesus said she gave more than the rich man. Notice he didn't say, "Very good. Here's four coins."
    As for Matt 9:29 and Luke 17:19, you found two passages that describes where Jesus healed people. Look at Matthew 8:16-17.
    "When evening came, many who were demon-possessed were brought to Him, and He drove out the spirits with a word and healed all the sick. This was to fulfill what was spoken through the prophet Isaiah: 'He took up our infirmities and carried our diseasese.'"
    Jesus healed as a sign of who He was. This doesn't guarentee that we'll be healed today. Sickness is part of having mortal bodies as a result of the fall of man. The death rate is 1 for every 1 person.

    No, but taking scripture and saying it says something when it really doesn't can be dangerous. For instance, the Word of Faith teacher who says the person can be healed if they claim it enough according to Isaiah 53:4-6, when in reality, all that passage is, is a prophecy about the coming Messiah.

    Well yeah. I was just making a point. A lot like saying part of skydiving is jumping out of the plane. You could say jumping is all of skydiving. Both can be argued to state there's a little more to it, but the main point remains the main point.

    Exactly my point.

    Again, that's right. However, we have to make sure we are telling the truth to begin with.

    I'm simply putting things in context.

    Again, I never said you. Note where I said Hagin, Hinn, Capps, etc.

    Once again, I never said you did.

    Same here. Thus why I'm here.

    Ditto. Expose lies (I'll say in advance, no you), shine the light of truth.

    Again and again, I agree. I'm just making sure that no one (not you) changes God's Word for personal purposes.
     
  4. SpiritPsalmist

    SpiritPsalmist Heavy lean toward Messianic Supporter

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    You quoted me correctly. Hmm in what way does "believe without checking it out" say "don't read the Bible for yourself". Especially, in my opinion that was exactly what it meant. If I don't check the man's words out with the scripture for myself it is my fault if I miss it.

    I think we agree.


    Ahh, but in order for His Word to be true we can also assume that she did not go home and die of starvation. It does not record it for us but I seriously doubt that her needs went unmet. Otherwise, that scripture would be a lie.

    God says, He is the same yesterday, today, and forever. He also says, He is not a respector of persons. If He said yesterday that I am healed then I can trust that He still heals today. He does not give generously to one child but withhold it all from another.

    Due to the sin of Adam, sickness is part of being mortal. And again I don't believe the Jesus healed only their infermities and diseases but He healed mine too. If you don't choose to believe that, that's your decision, but I choose to believe it and live by it. Yes, someday I will die but I intend for that not to happen until the appointed time that God has set.


    All that passage is? I think you've missed what that scripture says my brother.

    There is no magic potion for getting healed. Jesus heals. Pure and simple.

    Claiming is not just repeating rote style, "I am healed, I am healed, I am healed." Claiming is knowing without a doubt that what the Word says is the truth. . .no matter what the doctors says.

    The doctors give us the facts of living a human life. . .but the Word says we are free from the law of sin and death. Death is to come as appointed by God. . .not as appointed by man.


    The main point is that Jesus died to save us . . .body, soul, and spirit.

    According to my studies I am telling the truth.

    Your context maybe but not mine.

    Unless you have sat down with each of these people and discussed your concerns with them you have no place to judge. God did not give you the ministry they are doing, He gave it to them. If He thought you could do a better job I'm sure you would have it. . .but you don't.

    Perhaps you are misunderstanding what they are teaching. Maybe you should study more of what they teach (not what another says they teach), then maybe you would see that you probably agree more with them than you realize.

    I believe Jesus heals. None of the WOF people heal. Only God heals and from their own mouths I've heard them say that.

    The word shows us the way and if we don't take the time to read it for ourselves then we are responsible when the enemy beat us up . . . whether it be with sickness or finances or whatever keeps us from serving God in the way that He's called us.

    You have not yet proved they are lies. The enemy is the lier, thief and murderer. He's the one who tells us it's hopeless. Jesus gives us hope. If your telling people that words of hope are lies. . .

    What possible personal purpose could I have for changing God's Word? Because I don't have my own computer, I have to come to the library or stay after work late in order to post. I do this during my lunch time. I get no "gain" from it . . .except in knowing that there may be just one person who reads what I write and understands it and is set free.

    I know when I finely understood it after 40 plus years of being a Christian, I was set free. I've not arrived yet. . .but I'm arriving. I've come to far to turn back now.

    I think I will step out of the conversation at this point. There really is nothing more for me to say unless someone has a sincere question. I don't know everything and some things I'm still working through myself. But I will share what I know. And I will back up every word of it with scripture.

    Quaffer
     
  5. usadingo

    usadingo Member

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    Far from it! "Believe without checking it out" means that we are to check something out according to scripture? What? I think you're missing the basic grammatical structure of the sentance. If I say, "God is a trinitarian being in the form of a Playstation 2, a Mt. Dew, and a pretty girl. It's true. You simply need to believe without checking it out," I'm obviously wrong according to scripture!
    This is the problem within the Word of Faith movement. People are being told things that are false, and believing them without checking them out.
    All the Bible says is that she gave more than the rich man because she gave everything she had. I do think she was provided for. Where the problem is, Word of Faith teachers, as well as many others, use this passage and say that whatever you give, the exact same will be given back to you at least doubled. If you give $20, you'll get at least $40. God never promises money back to you when you give it. "Provision" and "blessings" don't always equal money.
    However, if we look at John 5:1-15, we see the story where Jesus heals the man at the pool. The pool is where many gathered because they believed if they entered the pool when the water swirrled, they would be healed. Though many were there, Jesus only healed the one man before slipping away into the crowd. He also did so without mentioning the man's faith.
    My question is this...If God shows no partiality, why did He only choose to heal the one, and not everyone at the pool? Perhaps Jesus' healings had a purpose to show?
    First off, Isaiah 53:4-6 says Jesus came to "heal" our infirmities and transgressions. Both of which are in reference to sin, and not physical sickness.
    Second, the Bible is full of Godly people getting sick and/or suffering, and never one being told it's because of sin. Paul's "thorn in his side." Job, and his sufferings. Timothy, and his "frequent illnesses." With that one in particular, notice how Paul tells him to drink some wine instead of water for his stomach, and not to "claim his healing."
    If sickness and death were not ment for our mortal bodies, why don't we already have our glorified bodies on earth?
    You're right, that's not all the passage is about. As I said before, a study of the passage shows that the coming Messiah would heal our iniquites and transgressions. Both of which refer to sin, and not physical sicknesses.
    As for the part about claiming, ever notice how it's never mentioned in the Bible? No sick person is ever told to "claim their healing."
    Sin and death, yes. Sickness does not equal sin. In fact, you can search the entire Bible, and no where does it say that sickness is sin. If it was, and we truely could be healed of our sicknesses by "claiming it," we wouldn't have to wash our hands, worry about eating old food, or worry about getting too close to the coughing kid in the back of class.
    Am I saying God cannot heal today? No. I'm simply saying it's about His will, and not ours. We can pray for healing, and if it's His will, he will heal. Often times though, sickness can be used to bring people closer to God.
    From hell, yes.
    And I don't doubt that you believe that.
    I'm refering to the proper context, so whatever you want to call it.

    Does it count if when I'm sitting, I'm in my car, and they're on the radio? Because that's what I do on a daily basis. There's a Word of Faith station where I live, and I listen to it to hear the false teachings on a daily basis.
    And the whole part about them having a ministry and not me is the dumbest arguement I've ever heard. I'm 23 and haven't ever started persuing my future plans yet. That's the only reason I don't have a "ministry" yet.
    So I guess by this theory, the rabbi's when Jesus was young had a better ministry than Him since it was bigger?
    What about Billy Graham? Kenneth Hagin's following isn't as big as Billy's. He must not be doing as good of a job.
    Wow...this is all such a revalation to me. Apparently, under this theory, CEO's of electronic companies can do a better job at fixing a DVD player than the tech's they employ, because their impact is bigger than the techs. It all makes sense now!

    Once again, I do on a daily basis. I've simply found that, if we listen to the host for what he has to say, and not for what he's put on the table, the truth is easier to hear. Most followers of the Word of Faith movement are so caught up in the appeal of being free from sickness, driving a Rolls Royce, and having a million dollars, that they can't see past the veil over their eyes and look at the truth.

    Because it's so much easier that way. Benny Hinn says he doesn't heal, he just has "an annointing that causes people to be healed."
    Ahhh...Let me try. My cat doesn't smell, his tongue just has a anointing of butt that causes people to think he smells.

    I'll have to remember to tell that to the parent who refuses to give their diabetic child insulin as a statement of their "faith," and the child dies. Let me make sure I've got it..."Your child died because you didn't read your Bible enough or have enough faith." Got it.

    There are two parts to proving a lie. Each person has a part. One part is showing. The other person's part, is looking.
    Oh my gosh...How did you get this position? I'm serious. Isn't part of what you do require reading people's posts? Did you not notice where I put "(not you)"? That means, I'm not talking about you!
    "Coming too far" is no excuse for ignoring truth.
    And I will be right here with commentaries, Bible dictionaries, and common sense galore, to put the verses back into their original context and meaning.

    -Dingo
     
  6. SpiritPsalmist

    SpiritPsalmist Heavy lean toward Messianic Supporter

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    I SAID. . .if someone believes whatever they are told without checking it against the Word of God, then they are wrong.

    Can I get any clearer? You seem to be deliberately misunderstanding rewording what I'm saying.\

    I'll say it again . . .IF YOU DON'T READ THE BIBLE FOR YOURSELF THEN IT IS YOUR FAULT WHEN YOU ARE MISSLED.

    I'm sorry that my grammar is insufficient for you . . .Perhaps you are playing the same game with all these people you are criticizing.
     
  7. usadingo

    usadingo Member

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    Let's start from the beginning. What you said, back in post 80, was "I believe that people are held accountable for what they choose to believe without checking it out or asking God for themselves."
    Let's break it down...
    What do you believe?
    "I believe that people are held accountable."
    For what?
    "for what they choose to believe."
    Anything they shouldn't do when checking what they believe?
    "without checking it out or asking God for themselves."
    Ah, so in other words, a person should decide for themselves what they believe without consulting God or the Bible.
    Trust me, I had an english teacher look this sentance over. It's saying the direct opposite of what you're trying to say. I think what you're meaning to say is, "I believe that people are held accountable for what they believe after checking it out against the Bible and asking God."

    If the game is translating my own native language so that it makes sense, maybe.
    But if I was to play a game with other people, it would be debating...if you'd call debating a game. Even then, I only play it with other people. Debating requires "Point and Counterpoint."
    Both you and I have been making points, but it seems that I'm the only one making counterpoints.
     
  8. SpiritPsalmist

    SpiritPsalmist Heavy lean toward Messianic Supporter

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    [​IMG] Congratulations. . .you have succeeded in making me out to be a total fool. I guess I have to be extremely careful when talking with you from now on since you seem to enjoy making a play of peoples wrong use of words. But hey, I'm the same way. I knew what I was thinking. . .it just did not come out on paper the way I was thinking.

    I usually try though to nicely repeat back to the person what I thought I heard them say that way they could better clarify. . .which in the one instance you did. But then when I wrongly did not include the whole sentense I was trying to clarify. . .well. . .thats where I look really foolish. I will try to make sure my words are more grammatically correct from now on.

    As mentioned in your last post. . .it is probably a good idea to start over.

    Here is what I wrote in post#80
    As I re-read it I can understand your misunderstanding. What I was intending to say was: People are held accountable for their own choices. We need to read and study the Word for ourselves. When we do not do that, and we are duped due to our insufficient knowledge due to our laziness, then we are responsible if someone dupes us. It is not someone else's fault. . .it is their fault.

    I believe this too. God has provided for me in some of the most miraculous ways. Now, I am learning to get the heart motive in check. I want to give because it's my desire to please God, not because I myself am so desperate that I view God as a giant slot-machine. I don't believe I do view Him that way. . .but there are always heart issues He desires to change.

    Are you questioning whether God shows no partialty or not? (Romans 2:11, Eph 6:9) Perhaps the reason he passed over all the others was because of their lack of faith. It does not record that even one of them asked him to heal them. Certaintly they knew Who He was.

    Of course it does appear that He spoke to the lame man first. . .but again, He was able to leave without one other person asking Him? How could that be? According to all the other recordings He healed all who asked. But here no-one even appeared to ask . . .even after He healed the lame man. That strikes me as odd. I don't know of any scripture where He healed without being asked. . .or even where He refused someone who did ask.

    There is one place (Matt 15:21-28) where it appears that He is refusing a request for healing but then due to "great faith", He does what she requests.

    I disagree strongly in ref to Is 53. We are spirits, who live in a body, and we possess a soul. I believe that Jesus came to make us WHOLE. Not just 1 part whole or 2 parts whole but WHOLE.

    Is 53:5 "But He was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with His stripes we are healed".

    http://www.blueletterbible.org/tmp_dir/words/1058834869-5605.html. Individual distresses. Personal distresses. Sounds like more inclusive of WHOLENESS to me. Body, Soul, and Spirit.

    The modern church uses a lot of words that can't be found in the Bible. . .but the general idea of thought is. Take Ps 18:21 for instance: "Death and life are in the power of the tongue". And Matt 12:37 where Jesus says, "For by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned".

    Now before you get all upset, I am not saying that one can speak whatever they want at anytime they want and receive what they want. However, in John 15:7 (NKJV) Jesus also said, "If you abide in me, and My Words abide in you, you will ask what you desire, and it shall be done for you".

    According to these scriptures our words are quite important. However, the qualifier is the condition of our heart. If we abide in Him, and His words abide in us: Abide = dwelling, remaining, lasting, bearing, and enduring. Hmmm. . .if I'm in this "abiding", then I will not desire anything that is not His will. Therefore, I can ask with confidence whatever I need. . .whether that be healing, finances, or whatever.

    If we are "abiding" then we will not ask due to greed, unselfishness, or even with unbelief" It's the Bible that says "the prayer of faith will heal" (James 5:15)

    I don't believe I said that sickness equals sins. I believe that sickness is due to the original sin of Adam. Before he sinned there was no sickness. Through him sin entered the world and as a result the breakdown of everything God called good. Because of Adams sin, we have sickness, disease, and eventually death.

    In Deut 28 though we see a list that God made of all the diseases that would fall on the people if they did not listen to and obey His commands. And then there is also the list of blessings that they could expect if they did obey.

    I believe it's His will to heal. . .always. It may take a moment, it may take years. . .it may not manifest until I die. But at least I can believe what I believe the Word says.

    Are you really listening? Or are you just hearing the parts you want to refute? I have two friends who visited my church and as they were walking out the door after the service angrily said, "not one scripture was spoken to back up anything that he preached". The other person looked down at her notes and "well, I have 2 pages of scriptures that I wrote down as he gave them." Hmmm! One, due to her upfront rejection totally missed what was preached because her thoughts were consumed by only what she already believed and in her thoughts there was nothing more to learn.

    This thought was not what I was intending to convey. . .I apologize. I was meaning to say that God has given us different things to do in the Kingdom. I believe God has worked through some of these people in great and mighty ways. I'm not a WOF person. I very rarely listen to any of them. But when I have. . .it brought understanding in an area that I was struggling in. I don't believe God has given anyone the "ministry" of tearing down the saints we disagree with. Since that is totally against how scripture teaches us to treat each other, anyone who operates in that gift, I believe is self-appointed not God-appointed

    Yes, this is a problem. Our eyes always need to be on the face of Jesus, not His hands. He is the healer, He is the provider. I am to be content with and in Him. No one and nothing can take His place.

    I have never heard any of these people tell someone to stop taking their medicine. In fact, I've heard the opposite. They've said, "go to your doctor and have him check you out" "don't go off your medicine until your doctor says it's OK". That's what I've heard and that's what I've said.

    I personally, take medication for some physical issues. I pray over that medication before I take them each night and thank God for giving man the knowledge for them and ask Him to bless them and I thank Him for no side effects and I thank Him for my healing, whether it is through the medication or miraculously.

    I again apologise. I thought you were saying "I will not let anybody, "not you, not anybody"" [​IMG]

    :( I would never ignore the truth if I understood it to be so.

    I understand your anger. . .I experience it too when I first heard this. . .especially since I was buried in debt and was hemmoraging every day of the year without reprieve.

    I'm still working my way out of debt (mostly self-inflicted) and I'm able to give more in meeting the needs of others. I also finely had surgery, which took care of the bleeding problem. . .but God taught me alot through all that. Too much to go into here. . .and it would probably only start another argument. . and I don't want that.
     
  9. usadingo

    usadingo Member

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    I was guessing there was some misunderstanding somewhere. Here, I agree with you. But as I think you mentioned before, I do feel teachers who speak false teachings are just as responsible.

    That reminds me of this morning. I was listening to my "Enter the Worship Circle CD," specifically the song, "I Will Not Forget You." I remember hearing the lyrics that describe this very well. "I will not forget you are my God, my King. And with a thankful heart I bring my offering. My sacrifice is not what you can give, but what I alone can give to you."
    God does often bless us when we offer up our money, time, etc, but we should never expect it. God has already given us eternal life for following Him, and to me it's just plain greedy when people expect more because they put $5 in the offering plate. For this reason, I get very frustrated when TBN has yet another "Praise-a-thon" where they bring people on talking about how if they give money, God will bless them with numerous times more money."

    I believe that God has a reason in everything. Job suffered as a sign of his faith to God. Paul was imprisoned to show his faith and trust in God despite the apparent "bad things" happening to him.
    For me, there are times when I'm trying to do so many things at once, God gets cut out of my life. Often in those times, sickness will give me that time to stop and set my eyes back on God.
    Sonny Sandoval of P.O.D. tells a beautiful story of his mother dying from cancer. She was clinging on to life because she knew he wasn't a Christian. The moment he gave his life to Christ, he went and told her, and she died moments later. God used her sickness and even death to bring him to God. What is he doing now? He tours in a multi-platinum selling band playing in front of thousands, bringing the message of Christ.
    Sickness is part of life. As you said, God does heal, sometimes after we die. In this instance, I guess I agree. My point is, in this life, healing isn't guarenteed. God can see the big picture, and often times sickness can be used by Him.

    But what else do we see in this passage? If we look it over, we see that Jesus healed the man on the sabbath. When the man walked away, the Pharisees saw the man was carrying his mat on the Sabbath and asked who told him it was ok to do.
    Could it be that Jesus possibly healed to show his power over the old law? Romans 14 talks about how because of Jesus breaking the old law, people regard different days as holy. There is no set "Sabbath."

    All I'm saying is, Isaiah said He was healed for our iniquities and transgressions. Both of which are refrences to sin. No mention of physical healing. Matthew 8:16 states that Jesus healed to fulfill the prophecy of Isaiah.
    Whether or not physical healing was talked about in Isaiah, Matthew shows us that Jesus healed as a sign of who he was. All I know is, there was sickness before Christ, during the days of Christ, and after Christ. Many times among founders of Christianity.

    I think the first one you are refering to is actually Pr 18:21. If it is, all that verse is saying is that our tongue can govern our actions. A king back then could order an excecution with the word. With another word, we can either lift our brothers up with encouragement, or cut them down with insults. But it's our decision to confess Christ with our mouth that saves us from eternal death. Could that be a possiblity for the verse?
    As for Matthew 12:37, just look at verse 36. That passage is talking about us on the day of judgement. A little different from our current standing.

    Other areas of the Bible talk about how if we ask according to God's will, it will be done for us. In other words, we can ask for whatever we want, but if it's not God's will, it won't be done. However, if it is His will, it will be granted. How many things does a child ask for that their parents don't give them? Why don't the parents allow the child to have a can of pop before they go to bed?
    Our will should always be second to God's.

    And if it's God's will, He will grant them. However, if witholding something from you can be a benefit, He just as well can.

    5:15 goes on to say that if the sick person has sinned, they will be forgiven. In other words, sickness may or may not be a result of that sin, but if it is, that sin will be forgiven.

    All of which are parts of every day life. I find it odd that many within the Word of Faith movement claim their healing when they're sick, but give up when someone dies. If sickness and death are both the result of sin, couldn't both be conquered just as easily?

    In other words, healing while alive on this earth isn't guarenteed.

    Considering I started listening before I knew who they were, I'd have to say I was listening. I remember hearing Kenneth Hagin talking about certain passages, and I remember thinking that those passages didn't say what I remember them saying, so I started studying up on both the passages, and the teachers I was hearing.

    Fredrick Price is the most notorious for this teaching, but many others have said it. The big problem is the great contridiction of faith healing as I call it. These teachers say that if someone has enough faith, they will be healed. Then when they are healed, they need to go to a doctor to make sure they were healed.
    Wait a minute...By going to a doctor, I'm admitting there's a chance I might not be healed, right? How is that having faith? By taking medicine, one is not trusting God to heal, but using medicine instead. Peter walked on water with Jesus until he started to doubt. If the small amount of doubt causes him to start to sink when Jesus was in front of him, couldn't that small doubt from going to a doctor be enough to block healing? It seems only logical, and that's what many people in this movement are doing.
    Speaking of faith being a requirement to have healing...What about people like Billy Graham? He's obviously a man of God with more faith than I could every hope for, yet he has parkinson's disease. It just seems odd.

    It sounds like we agree on a lot of things, but the way things are defined is what seperates. Am I the only one seeing this? Just curious.
     
  10. SpiritPsalmist

    SpiritPsalmist Heavy lean toward Messianic Supporter

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    I agree.

    I agree that our heart should not be in the place of demanding that God fullfill His promises. . . if God promises we can depend on that promise being fulfill no matter what the circumstances appear to be.

    If you promise your child dinner that night, should not that child have the expection of your keeping your promise. If they walk in the door at dinner time and sit down ready to eat is their expectation unreasonable?

    Now if they come in and sit down and start pounding on the table and shouting that they want it now. . . :scratch: well . . .now that's a totally different story.

    James 1:13 says, "Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:" Sickness in my opinion is "evil", being imprisoned by evil men and being beheaded is "evil". God used these things but He did not bring them upon these men in order to test them. Why would He need to test them when He already knows our hearts and everything we will do and say before we even do it?

    And I believe healing is guarenteed. I believe it was already done at the cross. I may not walk in that healing yet but Jesus none the less bore stripes that were for my physical healing. He was bruised for my iniquities. He was wounded for my transgressions. Body, soul, and spirit. Wholeness.

    And could it be the other way too? Is scripture limited to only 1 interpretation? Is God limited by our understanding? Is there more to God than we can understand in a lifetime? Have you not read the same scripture several times and understood something different several time? :)

    I disagree. I pointed that out in the link to strongs concordance. The definition included physical healing too.

    Yes, with exception to before the fall, sickness has always been here. . .but not due to HIM.

    That could be one possibility. I believe that the words of my mouth are to speak life to people. Whether it be sharing Christ or up lifting my fellow brother and sister. I do not believe I should walk around saying, "I'm sick, I'm poor, I'm stupid, I'm . . ." I believe those are words of death whether I speak them over myself or somebody else. Even the world understands that . .when is the church gonna get a clue?

    What are the words that can change where we're going on judgement day? At that point it's already decided. I believe we are held responsible for our words now. Whether they be false teaching or words of discouragement, etc.

    I believe I spelled it out pretty clearing the difference between "us abiding in Him and His Word abiding in us" If we're abiding we will not ask out of order.

    And the prayer of faith will heal them.

    Yes. Giving up only shows they gave themselves the option of giving up. People do the same thing with salvation. They call it backsliding.

    It is as long as we're abiding. I'm included in this statement too. But I plan to go down believing . . .whether the healing manifests or not.

    Did you switch your argument here? If a person presumes and are wrong then they blame the faith healer? Which way is is supposed to be. In this day and age people are so sue happy that would be all kinds of suits.

    On many things but not all. I believe we see the interpretation of scripture differently in some places. But I do not believe it should seperate us. :hug:

    One other thing I've noticed is that our post's keep getting longer. Both of us like to expound . . .:D
     
  11. SnuP

    SnuP A son of the Most High

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    You might not be willing to say it, but I will. Sickness does equal sin. All sickness. In fact if you are sick in anyway then you are the only one to blame. Ask your self. Who gave you this sickness? And do you believe that God is soveriegn?

    "Go your way and sin no more unless a worse thing come upon you"

    There is a book out by Dr. Henry Wright, called "A More Excellent Way"
    http://www.theherbsplace.com/excellent.html

    In this book, Pastor Wright outlines the exact reason for an increadible number of deaseses. Now many individuals have gone for personal ministery there and seen tramendous healing take place. In addition to this example of how removing the sin root, removes the sickness, my church has a simular such ministery. We have started holding monthly healing meetings, where two ministers work one on one with an individual to find the cause of sickness. All sickness operates under the spiritual law of sowing and reaping. So, if there is sickness, which is a fruit, then there is a tree, and a root. You can try to chop down this tree, but there is always the chance that it will grow back. But if you remove the root of the tree, the tree has to die and the sickness with it. We have discovered through the thousands that we have ministered to that the most common cause of sickness is person judgement. Judgements against someone. Jesus said that the judgement will come back upon you. They become a curse. They operate upon the premiss of Deut. 28. So by removing the root and bringing that area back into Christ, the sickness no longer has ground and must leave. This works for all sicknesses.
     
  12. SpiritPsalmist

    SpiritPsalmist Heavy lean toward Messianic Supporter

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    I guess I stand somewhat corrected then :).

    Would you say though, and I believe I already know what your answer is, but for the record here, that it is always the sin of the person who is sick? Such as a baby born with defects?
     
  13. usadingo

    usadingo Member

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    Well, the debate has gotten pointless, so I'm ignoring a lot of your post. No offense. But as you said, we have our differences that neither one of us is budging on, and they're not essentials of Christianity, so it's a little pointless to go on. I will respond to this one part though...

    I agree. God does not tempt. However, he does test. It's clear in the Bible that God tests His people. Job was tested. Why God tests, we don't always know. However with Job, we see that he was tested to show his faith in God.
    I just thought I'd add that.
     
  14. usadingo

    usadingo Member

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    So I guess that everything that happened to Job in the Bible was his fault then?
     
  15. SnuP

    SnuP A son of the Most High

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    the answer of course to your question is generational curses and/or Adamic sin. But one thing that needs to be addressed is that the person who has athority over the life in question has to be in aggreement with these two spiritual problems in order for one of them to effect the individual.
     
  16. SnuP

    SnuP A son of the Most High

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    Job was a mighty man of God, a righteous man, but do you believe that Job was perfect or even sinless. That Job could never reap destruction because he was blameless. No, of course not. We need to remember that when God calls someone righteous, He is refering to their faith in Him. Not there lifestyle. Job's biggest problem is that he lived in fear over his children (Job 1:5, Job 3:25,26). You see to fear anything other than God is sin. And many people have said that God comes to prune us, allowing troubling times to buffet us to remove the dross that we might be pure before Him. This situation is no different. I find it interesting that Elihu was the only one of Job's friends who was not rebuked by God. Notice how chapter 32 starts out.
    1So these three men ceased to answer Job, because he was righteous in his own eyes. 2Then was kindled the wrath of Elihu the son of Barachel the Buzite, of the kindred of Ram: against Job was his wrath kindled, because he justified himself rather than God. 3Also against his three friends was his wrath kindled, because they had found no answer, and yet had condemned Job.

    The Bible says that Job justified himself rather then God, and was righteous in his own eyes. Now that should be obvious to anyone that it is sin. Job was not a humble man. Scripture clearly teaches that God resist the proud, why would Job be any different. Yes, I do believe that you can be proud and still be righteous. Because righteousness has to do with a persons faith in God. And Job clearly had that, but he also had faith in himself.

    The question could be asked, "how does God resist someone?" I would answer by simple letting the devil touch that person. Another question is, "how would this secret sin of Job's heart ever be revealed, except that God draw it out by circumstance?" I mean, Job never sin outwardly, he wouldn't even speak against God.

    God knew what it would take for Job to see his sin, notice also God's extreme rebuke. Or do you think that Job did not deserve that? And finally we find Job repenting before the Lord in the last chapter.
     
  17. usadingo

    usadingo Member

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    John 9:1-3
    "As He went along, He saw a man blind from birth. His disciples asked Him, 'Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he was born blind?'
    'Neither this man nor his parents sinned,' said Jesus, 'but this happened so that the work of God might be displayed in his life.'"
    Neither this man or his parents sin caused the man to be born blind...odd....
     
  18. SnuP

    SnuP A son of the Most High

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    that is correct, neither he nor his parents sinned.
    The problem is the corrupted flesh that he was born with that was corrupted as a result of the fall of man. I.e. Adamic sin. All flesh is under a curse as a result of Adams sin. Look at Christ's responce. He acts like a potter fixing a broken pot. Adam was first formed out of the dust of the earth. So Christ takes some dust, mixes it with His own spit and makes mud and reforms what was missing from the mother's womb. This is not really that hard to see. You just have to look at it differently then what you were taught.
     
  19. usadingo

    usadingo Member

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    Then I can only assume that Jesus was sinful since he was born.
     
  20. SpiritPsalmist

    SpiritPsalmist Heavy lean toward Messianic Supporter

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    The seed that was implanted in the womb of Mary was not from corrupted flesh.
     
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