usadingo said:
Far from it! "Believe without checking it out" means that we are to check something out according to scripture? What? I think you're missing the basic grammatical structure of the sentance. If I say, "God is a trinitarian being in the form of a Playstation 2, a Mt. Dew, and a pretty girl. It's true. You simply need to believe without checking it out," I'm obviously wrong according to scripture!
This is the problem within the Word of Faith movement. People are being told things that are false, and believing them without checking them out.
Congratulations. . .you have succeeded in making me out to be a total fool. I guess I have to be extremely careful when talking with you from now on since you seem to enjoy making a play of peoples wrong use of words. But hey, I'm the same way. I knew what I was thinking. . .it just did not come out on paper the way I was thinking.
I usually try though to nicely repeat back to the person what I thought I heard them say that way they could better clarify. . .which in the one instance you did. But then when I wrongly did not include the whole sentense I was trying to clarify. . .well. . .thats where I look really foolish. I will try to make sure my words are more grammatically correct from now on.
As mentioned in your last post. . .it is probably a good idea to start over.
Here is what I wrote in post#80
Quaffer said:
I believe that people are held accountable for what they choose to believe without checking it out or asking God for themselves.
As I re-read it I can understand your misunderstanding. What I was intending to say was: People are held accountable for their own choices. We need to read and study the Word for ourselves. When we do not do that, and we are duped due to our insufficient knowledge due to our laziness, then we are responsible if someone dupes us. It is not someone else's fault. . .it is their fault.
usadingo said:
All the Bible says is that she gave more than the rich man because she gave everything she had. I do think she was provided for. Where the problem is, Word of Faith teachers, as well as many others, use this passage and say that whatever you give, the exact same will be given back to you at least doubled. If you give $20, you'll get at least $40. God never promises money back to you when you give it. "Provision" and "blessings" don't always equal money.
I believe this too. God has provided for me in some of the most miraculous ways. Now, I am learning to get the heart motive in check. I want to give because it's my desire to please God, not because I myself am so desperate that I view God as a giant slot-machine. I don't believe I do view Him that way. . .but there are always heart issues He desires to change.
usadingo said:
However, if we look at John 5:1-15, we see the story where Jesus heals the man at the pool. The pool is where many gathered because they believed if they entered the pool when the water swirrled, they would be healed. Though many were there, Jesus only healed the one man before slipping away into the crowd. He also did so without mentioning the man's faith.
My question is this...If God shows no partiality, why did He only choose to heal the one, and not everyone at the pool? Perhaps Jesus' healings had a purpose to show?
Are you questioning whether God shows no partialty or not? (Romans 2:11, Eph 6:9) Perhaps the reason he passed over all the others was because of their lack of faith. It does not record that even one of them asked him to heal them. Certaintly they knew Who He was.
Of course it does appear that He spoke to the lame man first. . .but again, He was able to leave without one other person asking Him? How could that be? According to all the other recordings He healed all who asked. But here no-one even appeared to ask . . .even after He healed the lame man. That strikes me as odd. I don't know of any scripture where He healed without being asked. . .or even where He refused someone who did ask.
There is one place (Matt 15:21-28) where it appears that He is refusing a request for healing but then due to "great faith", He does what she requests.
usadingo said:
First off, Isaiah 53:4-6 says Jesus came to "heal" our infirmities and transgressions. Both of which are in reference to sin, and not physical sickness.
Second, the Bible is full of Godly people getting sick and/or suffering, and never one being told it's because of sin. Paul's "thorn in his side." Job, and his sufferings. Timothy, and his "frequent illnesses." With that one in particular, notice how Paul tells him to drink some wine instead of water for his stomach, and not to "claim his healing."
If sickness and death were not ment for our mortal bodies, why don't we already have our glorified bodies on earth?
You're right, that's not all the passage is about. As I said before, a study of the passage shows that the coming Messiah would heal our iniquites and transgressions. Both of which refer to sin, and not physical sicknesses.
I disagree strongly in ref to Is 53. We are spirits, who live in a body, and we possess a soul. I believe that Jesus came to make us WHOLE. Not just 1 part whole or 2 parts whole but WHOLE.
Is 53:5 "But He was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with His stripes we are healed".
http://www.blueletterbible.org/tmp_dir/words/1058834869-5605.html. Individual distresses. Personal distresses. Sounds like more inclusive of WHOLENESS to me. Body, Soul, and Spirit.
usadingo said:
As for the part about claiming, ever notice how it's never mentioned in the Bible? No sick person is ever told to "claim their healing."
The modern church uses a lot of words that can't be found in the Bible. . .but the general idea of thought is. Take Ps 18:21 for instance: "Death and life are in the power of the tongue". And Matt 12:37 where Jesus says, "For by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned".
Now before you get all upset, I am not saying that one can speak whatever they want at anytime they want and receive what they want. However, in John 15:7 (NKJV) Jesus also said, "If you abide in me, and My Words abide in you, you will ask what you desire, and it shall be done for you".
According to these scriptures our words are quite important. However, the qualifier is the condition of our heart. If we abide in Him, and His words abide in us: Abide = dwelling, remaining, lasting, bearing, and enduring. Hmmm. . .if I'm in this "abiding", then I will not desire anything that is not His will. Therefore, I can ask with confidence whatever I need. . .whether that be healing, finances, or whatever.
If we are "abiding" then we will not ask due to greed, unselfishness, or even with unbelief" It's the Bible that says "the prayer of faith will heal" (James 5:15)
usadingo said:
Sin and death, yes. Sickness does not equal sin. In fact, you can search the entire Bible, and no where does it say that sickness is sin. If it was, and we truely could be healed of our sicknesses by "claiming it," we wouldn't have to wash our hands, worry about eating old food, or worry about getting too close to the coughing kid in the back of class.
I don't believe I said that sickness equals sins. I believe that sickness is due to the original sin of Adam. Before he sinned there was no sickness. Through him sin entered the world and as a result the breakdown of everything God called good. Because of Adams sin, we have sickness, disease, and eventually death.
In Deut 28 though we see a list that God made of all the diseases that would fall on the people if they did not listen to and obey His commands. And then there is also the list of blessings that they could expect if they did obey.
usadingo said:
Am I saying God cannot heal today? No. I'm simply saying it's about His will, and not ours. We can pray for healing, and if it's His will, he will heal. Often times though, sickness can be used to bring people closer to God.
I believe it's His will to heal. . .always. It may take a moment, it may take years. . .it may not manifest until I die. But at least I can believe what I believe the Word says.
usadingo said:
Does it count if when I'm sitting, I'm in my car, and they're on the radio? Because that's what I do on a daily basis. There's a Word of Faith station where I live, and I listen to it to hear the false teachings on a daily basis.
Are you really listening? Or are you just hearing the parts you want to refute? I have two friends who visited my church and as they were walking out the door after the service angrily said, "not one scripture was spoken to back up anything that he preached". The other person looked down at her notes and "well, I have 2 pages of scriptures that I wrote down as he gave them." Hmmm! One, due to her upfront rejection totally missed what was preached because her thoughts were consumed by only what she already believed and in her thoughts there was nothing more to learn.
usadingo said:
And the whole part about them having a ministry and not me is the dumbest arguement I've ever heard. I'm 23 and haven't ever started persuing my future plans yet. That's the only reason I don't have a "ministry" yet.
So I guess by this theory, the rabbi's when Jesus was young had a better ministry than Him since it was bigger?
What about Billy Graham? Kenneth Hagin's following isn't as big as Billy's. He must not be doing as good of a job.
Wow...this is all such a revalation to me. Apparently, under this theory, CEO's of electronic companies can do a better job at fixing a DVD player than the tech's they employ, because their impact is bigger than the techs. It all makes sense now!
This thought was not what I was intending to convey. . .I apologize. I was meaning to say that God has given us different things to do in the Kingdom. I believe God has worked through some of these people in great and mighty ways. I'm not a WOF person. I very rarely listen to any of them. But when I have. . .it brought understanding in an area that I was struggling in. I don't believe God has given anyone the "ministry" of tearing down the saints we disagree with. Since that is totally against how scripture teaches us to treat each other, anyone who operates in that gift, I believe is self-appointed not God-appointed
usadingo said:
Once again, I do on a daily basis. I've simply found that, if we listen to the host for what he has to say, and not for what he's put on the table, the truth is easier to hear. Most followers of the Word of Faith movement are so caught up in the appeal of being free from sickness, driving a Rolls Royce, and having a million dollars, that they can't see past the veil over their eyes and look at the truth.
Yes, this is a problem. Our eyes always need to be on the face of Jesus, not His hands. He is the healer, He is the provider. I am to be content with and in Him. No one and nothing can take His place.
usadingo said:
I'll have to remember to tell that to the parent who refuses to give their diabetic child insulin as a statement of their "faith," and the child dies. Let me make sure I've got it..."Your child died because you didn't read your Bible enough or have enough faith." Got it.[
I have never heard any of these people tell someone to stop taking their medicine. In fact, I've heard the opposite. They've said, "go to your doctor and have him check you out" "don't go off your medicine until your doctor says it's OK". That's what I've heard and that's what I've said.
I personally, take medication for some physical issues. I pray over that medication before I take them each night and thank God for giving man the knowledge for them and ask Him to bless them and I thank Him for no side effects and I thank Him for my healing, whether it is through the medication or miraculously.
usadingo said:
Oh my gosh...How did you get this position? I'm serious. Isn't part of what you do require reading people's posts? Did you not notice where I put "(not you)"? That means, I'm not talking about you!
I again apologise. I thought you were saying "I will not let anybody, "not you, not anybody""
usadingo said:
"Coming too far" is no excuse for ignoring truth.
I would never ignore the truth if I understood it to be so.
I understand your anger. . .I experience it too when I first heard this. . .especially since I was buried in debt and was hemmoraging every day of the year without reprieve.
I'm still working my way out of debt (mostly self-inflicted) and I'm able to give more in meeting the needs of others. I also finely had surgery, which took care of the bleeding problem. . .but God taught me alot through all that. Too much to go into here. . .and it would probably only start another argument. . and I don't want that.