• Welcome to Christian Forums
  1. Welcome to Christian Forums, a forum to discuss Christianity in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

  2. The forums in the Christian Congregations category are now open only to Christian members. Please review our current Faith Groups list for information on which faith groups are considered to be Christian faiths. Christian members please remember to read the Statement of Purpose threads for each forum within Christian Congregations before posting in the forum.
  3. Please note there is a new rule regarding the posting of videos. It reads, "Post a summary of the videos you post . An exception can be made for music videos.". Unless you are simply sharing music, please post a summary, or the gist, of the video you wish to share.
  4. There have been some changes in the Life Stages section involving the following forums: Roaring 20s, Terrific Thirties, Fabulous Forties, and Golden Eagles. They are changed to Gen Z, Millennials, Gen X, and Golden Eagles will have a slight change.
  5. CF Staff, Angels and Ambassadors; ask that you join us in praying for the world in this difficult time, asking our Holy Father to stop the spread of the virus, and for healing of all affected.
  6. We are no longer allowing posts or threads that deny the existence of Covid-19. Members have lost loved ones to this virus and are grieving. As a Christian site, we do not need to add to the pain of the loss by allowing posts that deny the existence of the virus that killed their loved one. Future post denying the Covid-19 existence, calling it a hoax, will be addressed via the warning system.

Word-Faith?

Discussion in 'General Theology' started by Yekcidmij, Apr 3, 2003.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. victoryword

    victoryword Senior Veteran

    +230
    Word of Faith
    Married
    Hi iktca

    I'm sure dida won't mine my responding to some things in your posts (after all, he sometimes responds to posts meant for me).

    While there is a "gift of [special] faith" mentioned in 1 Cor. 12 and indeed God does give each BELIEVER a measure of faith (Rom. 12), faith is exercised volitionally by every person. Jesus need not commend people for faith if they do not exercise it. That is why God often rebukes people for their UNBELIEF. If God is responsible for whether people act on faith or not then there would be no need for Him to commend those who do and rebuke those who don't and then feel stagnated when they do not exercise it (see Mark 6:5, 6).


    You are correct that no one deserves healing, but we certainly have a legal right to it because Jesus purchased it. First of all, Jesus Himself said that healing is the children's bread (Matt. 15:21-28). He then states that those who are children of Abraham have a right to be healed:

    And is it not right for this daughter of Abraham, who has been in the power of Satan for eighteen years, to be made free on the Sabbath? (Luke 13:16; BBE)

    Now compare that to Gal. 3 which teaches that faith in Christ makes us children of Abraham. We have a RIGHT to healing because we are connected to Christ. The King James version says "Ought not this woman ..." That word "ought" according to the KJV Greek Lexicon has an interesting definition. One of it meanings is, "necessity established by the counsel and decree of God, especially by that purpose of his which relates to the salvation of men by the intervention of Christ and which is disclosed in the Old Testament prophecies"

    To me, the implication is that he heritage as a child of Abraham entitles her to healing. So does ours. Its not that we demand our rights before God. Jesus died so that we can have this. He isn't holding anything back. We have to remind Satan of our rights because he is the one who wants to keep us in bondage as he did the poor woman in Luke 13:16. Knowing that I have rights gives me a bolder faith.


    Sorry if I cannot agree with you here but the statement would be TRUE, not FALSE as you say. Here is why:

    To all those who did so take him, however, he gave the right of becoming children of God--that is, to those who had faith in his name: (John 1:12; BBE)

    Scripture even shows that becoming a child of God is a "right" that sinners can take advantage of. Too bad so many of them don't. It could be that they here from some pulpits that they have been predestined to hell. For the most part, some are simply not aware of this right because we are not out there telling them. Nevertheless, Jesus purchased this right for them. God gives "rights" to His children and to sinners. Isn't that amazing? It would be hard to believe if Scripture did not son plainly state it.
     
  2. usadingo

    usadingo Member

    161
    +0
    Christian
    Tentmaker...
    I'm completely against the Word of Faith movement. Most of those on this thread know that. I say this so you know off the bat I'm not against you.
    Do us all a favor though and type in American English and not like someone who's been reading too much Shakespere. I've only been awake for three hours and it's making my head hurt...
     
  3. TheScottsMen

    TheScottsMen Veteran

    +13
    Married
    US-Others
    usadingo-

    For the first time on this board I agree with you! God bless you! :)

    TSM

     
  4. Tentmaker

    Tentmaker Member

    113
    +0
    Messianic
    USAdingo,

    Wish I were gifted enough to express a thought in the fashion of Sir Shakey. But such a wish will never bear fruit. So even though you mistake styles and talents(mine being meagre) your assertion of linguistic excess is noted.

    As for posting in "American English", you lose me. Unless, of course, you are referring to the English of the Founding Fathers, ala Thomas Paine.

    I am not wedded to any particular method of expressing what I think about a given matter. However, I do tend toward the style of the following author:

    "Man was sent into this earth for the express purpose of fighting -- of uncompromising and unending fighting with body, intellect, spirit, against whomsoever and whatsoever causeth or maketh a lie. The first requisite of life is courage or manfulness, gained through conflict with evil -- for without such conflict there can be no perfection of character....[W]e are born into a state of war; with falsehood and disease, and wrong and misery in a thousand forms lying all around us, and the voice within calling on us to take our stand as men in the eternal battle against them."-Thomas Hughes
     
  5. SavedByGrace3

    SavedByGrace3 Whoever calls on the name of Jesus will be saved Supporter

    +1,247
    United States
    Christian
    Married
    US-Others
    Hi iktca,
    I want to give your question the time it deserves. The only way we can come to understandings with each other is to detail in on what we are saying to each other. Very often subtle clues are dropped within dialogue we think are mere comments. So I will dedicate more time to it later this afternoon and evening. I want you to understand both how distant we are on some issues as well as how very close we are on others. I think the discussion may reveal to you and hopefully others why WOF people believe the way they do. It is not presumption, arrogance, or greed as some try to say. The vast majority of people who are WOF love God very deeply and are very dedicated to Him and His word. That is the heart and soul of the WOF movement.
    Looking forward to the discussion. Thanks for Christ like attitude in which you have approached.
    Blessings
    Didy
     
  6. Tentmaker

    Tentmaker Member

    113
    +0
    Messianic
    "didaskalos,
    Sometimes we miss to recognize that healing is grace and make the mistake of becoming legalistic. If we have the humility of Jesus, we will only say, “Lord, it is your grace that healed us. We praise you and the Father.”

    We all need to seek the humility of Jesus and be restored to his grace. I wonder if some parts of the Word of Faith movement need the same.

    You are in WOF. What is your observation?
    Last edited by iktca on 14th November 2003 at"



    Iktca,

    The letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.
     
  7. SnuP

    SnuP A son of the Most High

    +9
    Non-Denom
    do you know what IN Christ means, or more specifically, do you know what I mean by in Christ?
     
  8. Tentmaker

    Tentmaker Member

    113
    +0
    Messianic
    SnuP,

    The query was answered in two words, three letters.
     
  9. SnuP

    SnuP A son of the Most High

    +9
    Non-Denom
    Like so many of your responces, you fail to answer and a strait foward maner. Opting instead to throw curve balls that never really hit the mark. You remind me of the ignorant students in school who fooled their weak minded teachers with reports full of eloquent fluff that never really said anything. Do you get an A for you many words, or do you get an F for you failure to address the subject matter. Many on this forum have repeatedly ask you to actually address issues rather then spinning around them. Are you a politition or a scholar?

    The words I AM, does not reveal any understanding. Please elaborate, and be specific rather then vague.
     
  10. Big Mouth Nana

    Big Mouth Nana Post Tribulationist

    +166
    Non-Denom
    Married
    US-Others
    Hello Everyone on this forum. I just left another Chrisitian forum site permanantly. One thing is clear after reading all of these posts here, and those on the other site, there are always going to be those that do not understand the WOF movement. I am WOF myself.
    WOF to me, is basically believing all of the promises in Gods Word, and applying them for myself, wheather, healing, prosperity, the baptism in the Holy Spirit, tongues...all of it. I came out of another denomination that didn't believe in any of this, and these things made a definate difference in my relationship with Jesus Christ. I knew that He was real, but He became MORE REAL in my life. There was more of a closeness there, and it seems like my faith level increased when I got into the Word, and read all of the promises in His Word for me.
    Now, if I could just have the faith to understand how these editors work, I'll be even happier, rofl :scratch: .
     
  11. Tentmaker

    Tentmaker Member

    113
    +0
    Messianic
    :prayer:
    SnuP,

    He who is in the Spirit devotes much more space to the exposition of the right belief than to the examination of the errors of his opponent.

    Sorry I can't recall who said it.
     
  12. SnuP

    SnuP A son of the Most High

    +9
    Non-Denom
    And yet again you fail at having even a simple open dialog about someones beliefs.

    Why don't you write something that actually means something instead of spinning every answer.

    Why are you waisting so much of your time if you aren't even going to engage anyone hear. Your post are boardering on pointless. And your last responce apears hypricritical. Stop spouting off and say something of value.
     
  13. Tentmaker

    Tentmaker Member

    113
    +0
    Messianic
    :prayer:
    SnuP,

    "I Am"

    from Gurdjieff's "Life is real only then, when 'I am,' " pp. 134-137

    I Am that I Am.

    I am life. I am real.

    "Who say you I am"?

    The faithful respondents chant:

    I Am the Way

    I Am the Truth

    I Am the Life.

    What say ye?
     
  14. SavedByGrace3

    SavedByGrace3 Whoever calls on the name of Jesus will be saved Supporter

    +1,247
    United States
    Christian
    Married
    US-Others
    In the process of the discussion, I would like to address the surface issue first, and then perhaps comment on the deeper issue if there is one. This deeper issue us usually where the true disagreement exists. I am not offering this information here for debating. It is just and explanation to the question you have asked.

    Of course I know what you mean iktca when you say this, and I do not want you to think I am overly rigid when I attempt to clarify what I am hearing from you. I have noticed that sometimes people who love God (like you do!) tend to say things with a certain "devotional" tone because of the sacred nature of the topic that is being discussed. The things they believe are very personal and close to their heart. That is good! Praise God! But for someone who is listening, it is hard to discern between the "devotion" and the "faith"... or the bone and the marrow if you will.
    "When a believer makes a confession of faith that Jesus was sent by God, Jesus gives healing to the believer.."

    This statement assumes a number of things some of which will illustrate where WOF differs.
    You statement assumes:
    1. That a confession of faith that "Jesus was sent by God" affects God in some way.(It does not... God has already done everything that needs to be done to effect your healing. Jesus is the one who performed all the actions required to acquire your healing and health.)
    2 That God is going to change His mind about something because of something we do.(He is not... He made His mind up on the Garden when He refused let Jesus "drop the cup". It was finished then and there in the heart and mind of God. He is no longer deciding anything along these lines. We do not change God. His will has already been manifest in the gospel. It has all been decided.)
    3. That Healing has not already been given.(Yet it has. Jesus became a curse for us when He hung on the tree. In doing so He redeemed us from the curse of the law. It is primarily the curse of the law that gives sickness a right to exist in people. When Jesus redeemed us from sickness, sickness no longer has any legal right to exist on us.)
    4. That God is presently withholding healing from people.(He is not. He is not withholding anything from us. He has given us all things that pertain to life and godliness. All the promises of God have been made yes and amen because of what Jesus did.)
    5. That Jesus is currently in the healing business.(Of course Jesus can do anything. But in the church age, Jesus has delegated healing to the church. We minister healing to people. We also obtain healing and health via faith in His word and the gospel. He is the vine we are the branches. We are the fruit bearing part of the plant.)
    This same train of thought flows through all the WOF teachings. God and Jesus have already accomplished everything that needs to be done to provide you with salvation from every foe and the provision of every need. There is nothing left to do on their part. His will has been manifest in the life and ministry of Jesus. His will is not going to change for individuals. He does not want one sick while another well. All of this was decided on the day Jesus suffered and died for us. This is the greatest single difference (in my mind) between WOF and what is commonly called "orthodox" Christianity. Most of Christianity does not really believe that it is finished. They think that God and Jesus are in heaven deciding who will be saved and who will not, who will be healed and who will not, what prayers will be answered and which ones will not. They act as though the gospel is a flexible contract that God can renege on at any time. That is not the gospel.

    I understand what you are saying. You are presenting the idea that Jesus healed the sick regardless of their faith and was just being humble when He told them that it was their faith that made them well. Let me put that aside for a moment and try to get to the meat of the matter. The kind of faith held by most of Christianity (even Charismatic and Pentecostal believers) is what I call "general faith." General faith basically says that no matter happens God will take care of us. No specific scriptures are being believed. Nothing specific is expected. General faith gets general results. This is why most believers do not get specific results to prayer. It is because they pray general prayers. They get non-specific answers. This is still better than those who live in the area of "resignation faith". Resignation faith means we just accept whatever comes to be His will and live with it. They essentially do not believe anything at all. Everything that comes to pass is the same as if they believed nothing at all. I submit to you this is a very shallow sort of faith that pleases God very little. This is not overcoming faith... this is undergoing faith. It thinks that God may give us grace to undergo the suffering... but not to overcome it. Forget for a moment about receiving. Think about pleasing God. Those who come to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those Who diligently seek Him. Resignation faith may believe in Him, but it does not expect any sort of reward.


    Hebrews 11:6 MSG
    6 It's impossible to please God apart from faith. And why? Because anyone who wants to approach God must believe both that he exists and that he cares enough to respond to those who seek him.


    Before we go one. Let's return to the idea that Jesus healed people regardless of what they believed, and that Their faith was not really a factor.


    Mar 6 (ISV)
    5 He couldn't perform a miracle there except to lay his hands on a few sick people and heal them.
    6 He was utterly amazed at their unbelief. Then he went around to the villages and continued teaching.

    These verses are pretty clear that what people believed was a factor in releasing the power of God that was resident in Jesus to heal.

    Look at also these revealing verses:
    Mark 5:25-34 ISV
    25 Now there was a woman who had been suffering from chronic bleeding for twelve years.
    26 Although she had endured a great deal under the care of many doctors and had spent all of her money, she had not been helped at all but rather grew worse.
    27 Since she had heard about Jesus, she came up behind him in the crowd and touched his robe.
    28 For she had been saying, "If I can just touch his robe, I will get well."
    29 Her bleeding stopped at once, and she felt in her body that she was healed from her illness.
    30 Immediately Jesus became aware that power had gone out of him. So he turned around in the crowd and asked, "Who touched my clothes?"
    31 His disciples said to him, "You see the crowd jostling you, and yet you ask, 'Who touched me?'"
    32 But he kept looking around to see the woman who had done this.
    33 So the woman, knowing what had happened to her, came in fear and trembling, fell down before him, and told him the whole truth.
    34 He said to her, "Daughter, your faith has made you well. Go in peace and be healed from your illness."

    These verses show that the power of God to heal was released by her faith. The power was present in Jesus at all times. It was her faith in this case that released it. Jesus felt the power leave Him, and looked for who it was that touched Him. It is evident in this case that It was truly her faith that caused the power to go out of Him. Jesus and the author of the gospel want us to know that it was her faith, and not His conscious action that released the power.


    Grace is a wonderful subject. Let's look at when the grace of God was manifested, what role grace has in the redemption process, and exactly when this grace was exercised.

    Hebrews 2:9 Webster
    9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honor; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.

    The grace (or mercy) of God was manifest for us when Jesus died for us. This was a one time event, and something that is settled and finished. Once that grace (or mercy) moved Him to that act of sacrifice... it is no longer grace, but faith in that act of grace that effects our salvation. Salvation today is not grace... it is a covenant fact. It is done. The blood as been shed. The transaction has been made. The day before He went to the cross no one deserved it.. but the day after everyone does. The price has been paid. Every price has been paid. He took away the sins of the world. They are gone as far as God is concerned. God is not taking back these things. He is not ignoring the sacrifice. It is no longer mercy.. it is a redemptive fact. Mercy was needed until the price was paid. After that, it is a possession. Salvation was effected by the grace (mercy) of God when Jesus made the sacrifice... but now it is obtained by faith in that finished sacrifice.
    Once again we return to the same principle. WOF believes it is already done. It is no longer a matter of mercy. It is a matter of covenant law. To subject us who have believed to the punishment that Jesus already took would not only be unjust to us, but to Him as well. Why did he suffer and die for us if we are going to suffer and die as a result of sin anyway?



    But that is exactly what we are saying. We do have a legal right to salvation. He has purchased it for us, and all we need to do is take it. Not only salvation for our spirits, but salvation for every area of life. It is His will and purpose that we believe and receive these things. If they are not complete and if we cannot have confidence that they are true, then we have no basis for faith. We only have hope. Hope that He in His mercy will save us. But because the work of the Lord is complete, we can know, and have full confidence that is it truly finished. It is done! It is ours!



    I think I covered most of this above. Grace, mercy, and love pressed Jesus to the cross. Once the price has been paid... God's part in the redemption process is complete. You do not need mercy for salvation when it belongs to you and everyone else who will believe. You only need believe in the gospel.. that He has died for your sins according to the scriptures and was raised from the dead. It is a finished legal fact now. I suggest it is not "humility" but a lack of knowledge about what Jesus has truly accomplished for us.
    I am not sure where you are getting the "legalistic" idea, perhaps you can expand on this.
     
  15. SavedByGrace3

    SavedByGrace3 Whoever calls on the name of Jesus will be saved Supporter

    +1,247
    United States
    Christian
    Married
    US-Others
    Hello friend! Praise the Lord and Welcome!
    Don't worry... they will come around! :wave:
     
  16. IKTCA

    IKTCA Senior Veteran

    +72
    Word of Faith
    Married
    .
     
  17. usadingo

    usadingo Member

    161
    +0
    Christian
    I was going to put, "write in English," but I knew you'd respond with something like, "I am! The King's." So, I put American English. What's the difference? The English would say you write like a tart, while American English would say your writing sucks, and we can't understand you.

    Great. Whatever. You're not Thomas Hughes.
     
  18. Tentmaker

    Tentmaker Member

    113
    +0
    Messianic
    Dingo,

    Shall I :bow: at your honorable feet while you perform your Christian duty of CRITICISM?

    Do you give blessings after completion of your tedious tasks?
     
  19. usadingo

    usadingo Member

    161
    +0
    Christian
    That would be fine, yeah. I just got some shoe polish and shined them up all nice too. They were starting to look grey, but now they're a shiny black.
    And after tedious taskes, I tend to rub my eyes and stretch. Just a typical response to boring routine.
     
  20. Tentmaker

    Tentmaker Member

    113
    +0
    Messianic
    A commentary on self that is instructive as to both character and conviction. Rare is the Christian so willing to expose his/her flaws.
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
Loading...