Word-Faith?

[usadingo]

You are the ones who are talking about "iniquity" and "transgressions", I was talking about the "stripes"...and where Jesus took them...

It's called putting something in context Look. You know, you seem to love breaking things down to one word to prove your point. How about we look at what the word "context" means?
Context- "the parts of a discourse that surround a word or passage and can throw light on its meaning" (webster)
You can't just look at a passage, see the word "healed" and go, "By George, we're healed!" You actually have to look at the words before to see what we are healed from.

Isa 53:5 But he [was] wounded for our transgressions (pesha‛ ), [he was] bruised for our iniquities (‛a^vo^n): the chastisement of our peace [was] upon him; and with his stripes (chăbu^ra^h) we are healed (ra^pha^h).

chăbu^ra^h means "bruise, stripe, wound, blow"
ra^pha^h means " to heal, make healthful"

Woops! Careful Look, you're adding meaning to words again. Just because the word "healed" is used, that doesn't necessarilly mean physical healing. Let's look at another passage where ra^pha^h is used.
Jer. 3:22- "Return, O faithless sons; I will heal [ra^pha^h] your faithlessness."
I think it's pretty obvious that physical healing isn't implied in this passage, yet ra^pha^h is used. Perhaps the "healing" in question if spritual? After all, why would someone have to be "healed" from faithlessness?

It seems that you are not applying good "hermeneutics" (at least I can spell it correctly) to the scriptures...

Right....
Oh, and we'll make sure to point out every typoe of yours from here on out since, you know, you apparently want to be accurate. Feel free to point out mine. I don't care as long as my point is getting across.

Because Isaiah was speaking very plainly of both inner and outer healing...

It's strange that no one realized this until E.W. Kenyon came along.

Not only that, Peter spoke, also very plainly, about our healing. He used the word "iaomai", which means to cure, heal, make whole...Also note this happened when Jesus was on the Cross...

Again, those words are not limited to physical healing.

I hope you don't mind me commenting Mike.

 

[look]

Actually, you would be hard pressed to use that or church history to back you on that...I'll tell you what, Show me where 2000 years of "Orthodoxy" does prove us wrong?

I don't want any cut and paste of someone's opinions, either. In other words, "where's the beef?"

Wait a second, you're the one coming to a Christian message board representing heterodox views.

It's up to you to demonstrate your beliefs, not me. So far, you haven't.

In other words, you can't produce any substantive evidence to back the point you made with the "2000 years of orthodoxy", eh?

 

[usadingo]

It is difficult to understand how people can read Matt 8:17 and still claim Is 53 is not referring to physical healing.

Matt said the healing of people was the fulfillment of this passage...

Healing fulfilled the OT passage.

The passage is talking about physical healing.

I dunno... it is as clear as crystal.

Either way, what word do we find in Matthew 8:17? Fulfilled.

 

[look]

If you are going to post the definitions of words, you should post them in their entirety. That, whether intended or not, puts a "spin" on things. I shall, for our readers, post both the Strong's and Thayer's definitions here...

Let me get this straight, you tell me to post definitions in their intirety, lest it be percived as putting a "spin on things", after you only post the portion of Thayer's definition of the word "iaomai", which seems to support your view?

That's disingenuous on your part and it's also very hypocritical.

I apoligize Mike, I just stooped to your way of doing things, I didn't mean to cramp your style...

 

[SpiritPsalmist]

Given the way you guys have tried to twist my words, such as the way you implied that I denied the teachings of Christ, I think I've been very respectful.

I thought my statement affirming your liberty to believe these things was a show of respect to you.


I'm sorry you feel that way. Given that you have agreed with Look, dispite his taking verses out of context, applying false definitions to words and verses, outright deception and personal attacks, we obviously have different ideas of what "thoughtful is".

Mike,

I'm trying to get along with you . . .my implication was made the same way your implication was made. We both implied that each other was missing something somewhere. You hit first by saying "you read into the word whatever you want" post #415.

Then in #417 you hit again, regarding my giving a statement made by an apostle to Jesus by saying, "if you're so eager to assign a statement to Him that He didn't make, what other statements or teachings are you going to give Him?"

I apologize that I "just could'nt help myself" by giving you some of your own tactics back so you could see how it felt.

False definitions? How do you know your's are not the false ones. I've copied and pasted from the commentaries and been told I'm wrong. Go figure.

 

[SavedByGrace3]

Either way, what word do we find in Matthew 8:17? Fulfilled.

Mat 8:
16 When the even was come, they brought unto him many that were possessed with devils: and he cast out the spirits with [his] word, and healed all that were sick:
17 That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Esaias the prophet, saying, Himself took our infirmities, and bare [our] sicknesses.


I have heard people try and say that this verse from Is 53 refers to "sprirtual healing" (whatever that is). But it clearly is referring to physical healing here.

Why is it so difficult to believe that He took our infirmities and bare our sickenesses? And how could such a teaching possibly ever be considered a "heresy"? You guys throw this word around like Michael Jordan does ball. Not every difference of opinion deserves this very serious title. It loses it's meaning when you wear it out like this. You effectively are saying we are all heretics. As heretics we deserve to be cast out of the church and even turned over to satan for punishment. Are you prepared to do this? If so, then do it. Now. If not, then perhaps you should ease off pounding this "heresy drum." You also need to understand that eventually people (even those who may agree with you) will get a little tired of hearing this all the time.

(We could just as easily point out the horrible injustice you are commiting by trodding under foot "the body of Christ." Your failure to discern the body of Christ, and your leading others away from this aspect of the work of Christ is a very serious matter.... perhaps you should consider this before you try and talk people out of the blessings of God that Jesus suffered to purchase for us!)

 

[usadingo]

Mat 8:
16 When the even was come, they brought unto him many that were possessed with devils: and he cast out the spirits with [his] word, and healed all that were sick:
17 That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Esaias the prophet, saying, Himself took our infirmities, and bare [our] sicknesses.


I have heard people try and say that this verse from Is 53 refers to "sprirtual healing" (whatever that is). But it clearly is referring to physical healing here.

Why is it so difficult to believe that He took our infirmities and bare our sickenesses?

Because it's not what is being said. If it were, that'd be awesome. I wish we didn't have to get sick. But just because it's something I want, that doesn't mean I can twist scriptures around to support it.

And how could such a teaching possibly ever be considered a "heresy"? You guys throw this word around like Michael Jordan does ball. Not every difference of opinion deserves this very serious title. It loses it's meaning when you wear it out like this. You effectively are saying we are all heretics. As heretics we deserve to be cast out of the church and even turned over to satan for punishment. Are you prepared to do this? If so, then do it. Now. If not, then perhaps you should ease off pounding this "heresy drum." You also need to understand that eventually people (even those who may agree with you) will get a little tired of hearing this all the time.

You're assuming again.
None of us on here against the Word of Faith movement have ever said you're all going to hell. Not once. I do believe the essentials of salvation are there. That's not the problem.
The problem is teachings like prosperity and guarenteed healing. And with some teachers, the reduction of God and Christ to servents of us.
With teachings like prosperity and healing, many people chase after it with all their hearts. Many of them, upon not seeing results, leave the faith all together. Others sit back and watch as friends and family members die.
As a Christian, I feel obligated to speak up, letting people know this isn't sound Christian doctrine.

(We could just as easily point out the horrible injustice you are commiting by trodding under foot "the body of Christ." Your failure to discern the body of Christ, and your leading others away from this aspect of the work of Christ is a very serious matter.... perhaps you should consider this before you try and talk people out of the blessings of God that Jesus suffered to purchase for us!)

::humming "Here Comes Santa Claus"::

If my actions encourage people to look into the Bible and read what's actually written, than I'm willing to accept doing such a horrible injustice.

 

[SavedByGrace3]

I
It's strange that no one realized this until E.W. Kenyon came along.

A very short search of the internet returned this portion of the Andrew Murrey (1828-1917) classic "Divine Healing" written in the 1800s before Kenyon even started preaching:

"... Jesus came to save both. Having taken upon Him sickness as well as sin, He is in a position to set us free from the one as well as the other, and that He may accomplish this double deliverance He expects from us only one thing: our faith.

As soon as a sick believer understands the meaning of the words, "Jesus has borne my sins," he does not fear to say also: "I need no longer bear my sins, they are upon me no longer." In the same way as soon as he has fully taken in and believed for himself that Jesus has borne our sicknesses, he does not fear to say: "I need no longer bear my sickness; Jesus in bearing sin bore also sickness which is its consequence; for both He has made propitiation, and He delivers me from both."

I have myself witnessed the blessed influence which this truth exercised one day upon a sick woman. For seven years she had been almost continually bedfast. A sufferer from tuberculosis, epilepsy, and other sicknesses, she had been assured that no hope of cure remained for her. She was carried into the room where the late Mr. W. E. Boardman was holding a Sunday evening service for the sick, and was laid in a half-fainting condition on the sofa. She was too little conscious to remember anything of what took place until she heard the words, "Himself took our infirmities and bare our sicknesses" (Matthew 8:17), and then she seemed to hear the words, "If He has borne your sicknesses, why then bear them yourself? Get up."

"But," she thought, "if I attempt to get up, and fall upon the ground, what will they think of me?"

But the inward voice began again: "If He has borne my sins, why should I have to bear them?" To the astonishment of all who were present, she arose, and, although still feeble, sat down in a chair by the table. From that moment her healing made rapid progress. At the end of a few weeks she had no longer the appearance of an invalid, and later on her strength was such that she could spend many hours a day in visiting the poor. With what joy and love she could then speak of Him who was "the strength of her life" (Psalm 27:1).

Psalm 27
1 The LORD is my light and my salvation; whom shall I fear? the LORD is the strength of my life; of whom shall I be afraid?

She had believed that Jesus had borne her sicknesses as well as her sins, and her faith was not put to confusion. It is thus that Jesus reveals Himself as a perfect Savior to all those who will trust themselves unreservedly to Him."


The teaching we see today in the WOF movement is not original or new. It is as old as Moses, David, Jesus, Paul, John, and Peter.
But the assertions I am hearing here confirms to me that the opponents here have not done their homework and are just throwing out made up arguments and cut and pasted articles from the same old same old heresy hunter websites put up by control freaks who have no real ministry and so they feel obligated to run others down.
I hope we see something new.. cause this is getting old.

 

[SavedByGrace3]

opps

 

[MikeMcK]

In other words, you can't produce any substantive evidence to back the point you made with the "2000 years of orthodoxy", eh?

Nice try.

Do you not know that the person making the claim is the one with the responsibility to demonstrate it.

By coming to a Christian board where there is a orthodox presupposition and challenging that orthodoxy, you are, in effect, making the challenge. Therefore, it's up to you to support your heterodox views.

 

[SavedByGrace3]

::humming "Here Comes Santa Claus"::

Comparing the suffering of our Lord to Santa Claus is way out of bounds.

You should be ashamed.

 

[MikeMcK]

Oh, and we'll make sure to point out every typoe of yours from here on out since, you know, you apparently want to be accurate. Feel free to point out mine. I don't care as long as my point is getting across.

For the record, I'm a good speller, just a lousy typer.

I always have to laugh when someone runs out of ideas to the point that the best thing they can do is criticize someone else's spelling.

I hope you don't mind me commenting Mike.

Not at all. You've done a fine job and it's encouraging to find out that I'm not the only one here that cares about sound doctrine.

 

[MikeMcK]

I apoligize Mike, I just stooped to your way of doing things, I didn't mean to cramp your style...

But I haven't done those things. You've made this claim before, yet you haven't given any examples.

I trust that anyone who reads this will see for themselves that I haven't said these things.

 

[usadingo]

Comparing the suffering of our Lord to Santa Claus is way out of bounds.

You should be ashamed.

Taking God and turning Him into some divine Santa Claus that gives us whatever we ask like greedy children is way out of bounds.
In the words of Steven Curtis Chapman, "God is God and I(you) am(are) not."

 

[MikeMcK]

Mike,

my implication was made the same way your implication was made.

But I didn't imply anything.

The way I phrased my question, it's clear that it was conditional. This is evidenced by the use of the word "if".

We both implied that each other was missing something somewhere.

First of all, again, I didn't imply. Second, your charge was much more than simply "missing something somewhere", you said that I denied the teachings of Christ. That is a very serious charge and you need to be prepared to back something like that up.

You hit first by saying "you read into the word whatever you want" post #415.

I apologize that I "just could'nt help myself" by giving you some of your own tactics back so you could see how it felt.

I know how it feels. It's a common practice among WoF'ers but I still didn't do it to you.

False definitions? How do you know your's are not the false ones. I've copied and pasted from the commentaries and been told I'm wrong. Go figure.

Because mine are supported by the context of the text. I have also pasted from several respected commentaries and Bible dictionaries and lexicons, yet you've told me that they're wrong. Why do you want to hold me to a higher standard than you would expect to be held to?

 

[MikeMcK]

Guys, I've made my point. If you won't listen to scripture and 2000 years of Christian orthodoxy, you won't listen to me.

Dingo, good job. God bless you.

I'm outta here.

 

[look]

Bye bye now...

 

[Andrew]

disdaskalos, quaffer and look,

why share God's precious truths with people who will only trample on them? why correct a fool?

Mt 7:6 Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you.

Pr 23:9 Speak not in the ears of a fool: for he will despise the wisdom of thy words.

 

[TheScottsMen]

I agree..

Nuff Said

 

[SpiritPsalmist]

So what are we supposed to put on?
Truth, Righteousness, the Gospel of peace (witnessing), Faith (or, assurance of salvation), Salvation, the Word of God.
This is what I said, "Apostles and the early Church don't show these examples. There's no evidence of people building up their faith and claiming it based on certain passages. We don't see them using positive confession."
This passage may say that we are to use the Word of God, but I believe we are to use it like Jesus did when tempted by Satan. He corrected Satan, and said what scripture says.
When Jesus healed, He didn't pray to the Father claiming healing over certain passages. He simply healed.
And in this passage, there still isn't evidence of anyone using positive confession.

I never said demons can't cause sickness.
So then, how are we supposed to "fight off" these demons? Let's use the passage you noted earlier.
Paul tells believers to “stand” against them in God’s power using His armor. The weapons he lists for battle are: honesty, righteousness, witnessing, assurance of salvation, belief in God, and proficiency in the Scriptures. But wait, isn’t this simply obedient Christian living? Where’s the mystical mumbo jumbo — the direct encounter with the supernatural? It would appear that Christians who effectively live out their faith assault satanic oppression of a society with an onslaught that verbal rebukes cannot approach.

That's exactly what positive confession consists of dingo. . .what you've described above.

We put on Truth, Righteousness, the Gospel of Peace, Salvation and the word of God. I guess as far as examples for us in scripture. . .well. . .there are quite a few scriptures that say things like "hold fast to your profession", "acknowledge every good thing", and "with the mouth make confession".

We are told to draw near to God and resist the devil and he will flee. The first part of that is drawing near to God. Out of that relationship of nearness to God we are given the strength we need to resist the enemy. In whatever form that may take.

My Pastor, before He was a Christian, he was a cowboy. He rode bulls. He does not ride bulls anymore but he practices his walk with God pretty much the same way he would practice riding a bull. Lot's of enthusiasm and vigor.

Me, on the other hand, I'm fairly quiet and laid back. I go at it with ease and lot's of thinking and contemplating. And I keep after something until I understand it. My previous Pastor called me a "bull dog", meaning that once I get it I hold on.

Jesus quoted the Word. Positive confession is quoting the Word. Not trying to use God as Santa Claus, but using it as a weapon against our enemy.

Granted there are some who treat the Word like a majic potion and that is why those who generally treat it that way do not receive what they are asking because they are asking amiss.

I'm the same as you dingo. I ask God to heal and then I quote scripture in order to answer the enemy's accusations coming against me. That does not produce a bag of goodies but it does build my faith and trust in Him and I draw closer to him and in the process I'm resisting the devil and then he flees.

dingo, I'm not trying to make you agree with me. I'm just wanting you to understand that all that you might think of what I or some of the others believe may not be what you think.

I really do appreciate all of this talking back and forth. You've made me think and that's good. I don't have the answers to everything. But I love God deeply and desire to do only what He wants me to do.