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SpiritPsalmist

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MikeMcK said:
  1. Furthermore, while the word “iaomai” can mean healing, Thayers’ defines it as also meaning: “to make whole
    1. to free from errors and sins, to bring about (one's) salvation.
The context of the verse is clear that this is the correct definition.



OK. It is my fervant prayer that you will lay these beliefs down and embrace sound doctrine.
So why is it only "your" conclusion that is correct? Why can't it be both? He died to make us whole. Body, soul, and spirit. That's not unsound doctrine.
 
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MikeMcK

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Quaffer said:
I don't know about the divine power stuff, but we can speak to sickness and rebuke it.

As silly as it is, it's a nonessential issue so scripture says you have the liberty to believe it. I won't argue with you about it any more.

Ananias did it.

Given that God killed Ananias for lying to the Holy Spirit, are you sure you want to model your Christian walk after him?

And how would you know what those conclusions are?

Because you're posting them.

Scripture says "all scripture is given by inspiration of God" (2 Tim 3:16). And you do mean to nit-pick. If it says, "Jesus Christ, the same yesterday, today and forever", that's what it means.

I agree. To my knowledge, no one here has said otherwise.

And you do mean to nit-pick.

I'm sorry you feel that way. It was a point that had to be made.

And I might ask, what other statements or teachings did He teach that you deny?

I don't deny any. Your use of the word "other" implies that I have denied any of His statements or teachings and I haven't. You're either mistaken or you're trying to intentionally misrepresent me. I hope it's the former.

No need to be sarcastic and insulting.

Then I will disregard your last remark.
 
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MikeMcK

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Quaffer said:
So why is it only "your" conclusion that is correct?

Because the conclusion that I've presented is the one that's supported by scripture.

Why can't it be both?

Because two contradicting statements cannot both be true.

He died to make us whole. Body, soul, and spirit. That's not unsound doctrine.

You're right. It's not unsound doctrine but it is incorrect doctrine and incorrect doctrine leads to unsound doctrine.
 
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SpiritPsalmist

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[/QUOTE]
MikeMcK said:
Because two contradicting statements cannot both be true.
Contradicting. Since when does part b definition undu part A or visa versa? It meant all the def given not just the one you agree with
MikeMcK said:
Given that God killed Ananias for lying to the Holy Spirit, are you sure you want to model your Christian walk after him?
:scratch: Ummm. I guess you don't know there were two Ananias'? (Acts 9 starting at verse 10)You missed something so simple.

I'm not gonna argue with you anymore either. You seem to be deliberately twisting my words.
 
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MikeMcK

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I'm not gonna argue with you anymore either. You seem to be deliberately twisting my words.
No I haven't. I've presented your words exactly as you've posted them.

Of course, one could argue that you've twisted my words with such snide little comments such as "what other teachings or statements of Jesus do you deny", meant to imply that I denied any of His teachings, which, of course, I don't.
 
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SavedByGrace3

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It is difficult to understand how people can read Matt 8:17 and still claim Is 53 is not referring to physical healing.

Matt said the healing of people was the fulfillment of this passage...

Healing fulfilled the OT passage.

The passage is talking about physical healing.

I dunno... it is as clear as crystal.
 
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Andrew

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It is difficult to understand how people can read Matt 8:17 and still claim Is 53 is not referring to physical healing.

Yo Hobie,

The answer is given in the Bible:

Mr 7:13 Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.
 
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look

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look said:
Not only that, Peter spoke, also very plainly, about our healing. He used the word "iaomai", which means to cure, heal, make whole...Also note this happened when Jesus was on the Cross...
MikeMcK said:
I disagree.

The verse is: 1 Peter 2:24 Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were heal ed.


Thus, we see from the context of the verse is speaking of being dead to sins and living unto righteousness.

1. Furthermore, while the word “iaomai” can mean healing, Thayers’ defines it as also meaning: “to make whole
1. to free from errors and sins, to bring about (one's) salvation.

The context of the verse is clear that this is the correct definition.

Why did you separate the word "healed" into Heal ed?

If you are going to post the definitions of words, you should post them in their entirety. That, whether intended or not, puts a "spin" on things. I shall, for our readers, post both the Strong's and Thayer's definitions here...

G2390
ἰάομαι
iaomai

Strong's definition:

ee-ah'-om-ahee
Middle voice of apparently a primary verb; to cure (literally or figuratively): - heal, make whole.

------------------

And now for the rest of Thayer's definition...

G2390
ἰάομαι
iaomai
Thayer Definition:
1) to cure, heal
2) to make whole
2a) to free from errors and sins, to bring about (one’s) salvation
Part of Speech: verb
A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: middle voice of apparently a primary verb
Citing in TDNT: 3:194, 344

--------------------------------------------------------------------

Note the order of usage...yours was from the least useage (2a)...

--------------------------------------------------------------------

Hmm...

Let's look at the word "salvation"...Shall we? :)

The Hebrew word that we get our word "salvation" from is;

Strong's definition:

H3444

ישׁוּעה

yeshû‛âh
yesh-oo'-aw
Feminine passive participle of H3467; something saved, that is, (abstractly) deliverance; hence aid, victory, prosperity: - deliverance, health, help (-ing), salvation, save, saving (health), welfare.

----------------------------------------------------------------

H3444

ישׁוּעה

yeshû‛âh

Brown-Driver-Briggs' Definition:

1) salvation, deliverance
1a) welfare, prosperity
1b) deliverance
1c) salvation (by God)
1d) victory
Part of Speech: noun feminine
A Related Word by BDB/Strong’s Number: passive participle of H3467
Same Word by TWOT Number: 929b

----------------------------------------------------------------

Total healing is part of God's salvation and there is absolutely no way around it, except by willful ignorance. I'm sorry to have to tell you that way in front of everybody, I really am...
 
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SpiritPsalmist

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MikeMcK said:
No I haven't. I've presented your words exactly as you've posted them.

Of course, one could argue that you've twisted my words with such snide little comments such as "what other teachings or statements of Jesus do you deny", meant to imply that I denied any of His teachings, which, of course, I don't.
Mike,

Is this not how you responded to me in your post #417.

Look, I'm willing to talk with you as long as you don't take pot-shots at me. It's all too easy for me to dish them back and that is not beneficial to the Kingdom. I believe your bringing up old arguments. . .meaning if you look back in the thread you can see we've already gone through all of this.

Thorough explanations with backup have been given, by me and others, for a point of view different from yours. Yet you seen to not see them for your point. . .much like you can't see the trees for the forest. :) At least consider what is said and give thoughtful response back. And I will do the same.
 
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MikeMcK

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look said:
Why did you separate the word "healed" into Heal ed?
Are you serious?

If you are going to post the definitions of words, you should post them in their entirety. That, whether intended or not, puts a "spin" on things. I shall, for our readers, post both the Strong's and Thayer's definitions here...
Let me get this straight, you tell me to post definitions in their intirety, lest it be percived as putting a "spin on things", after you only post the portion of Thayer's definition of the word "iaomai", which seems to support your view?

That's disingenuous on your part and it's also very hypocritical.


Note the order of usage...yours was from the least useage (2a)...
The order of usage has nothing to do with it. It's the context of the verse in which the word is used.







Total healing is part of God's salvation and there is absolutely no way around it, except by willful ignorance.
Or by actually studying the text instead of reading your own presupposition to it.

I'm sorry to have to tell you that way in front of everybody, I really am...
No problem. I don't mind being called ignorant by someone who denies the sufficiency of Christ's work on the cross, yet still calls himself a Christian. It's rather ironic, in fact.

If this makes me "ignorant", and by extension, 2000 years of Christian orthodoxy ignorant, then at least I'm in good company.
 
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look

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quaffer said:
Look, I'm willing to talk with you as long as you don't take pot-shots at me.
Ha-ha, you're not talking to me, right? :scratch:

I know, but I couldn't resist, it seemed funny to me and I couldn't pass it up... ;)
 
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MikeMcK

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Quaffer said:
Mike,

Is this not how you responded to me in your post #417.
No, it's not.

Look, I'm willing to talk with you as long as you don't take pot-shots at me.
May I ask what "pot shots" I've taken at you?

It's all too easy for me to dish them back and that is not beneficial to the Kingdom. I believe your bringing up old arguments. . .meaning if you look back in the thread you can see we've already gone through all of this.

Thorough explanations with backup have been given, by me and others, for a point of view different from yours. At least consider what is said and give thoughtful response back. And I will do the same.
Actually, if you would read my posts, you would see that I have given thoughtful responses.
 
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MikeMcK

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Andrew said:
Yo Hobie,

The answer is given in the Bible:

Mr 7:13 Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.
Actually, that verse has nothing to do with the subject at hand.

Orthodoxy doesn't reject these things because of tradition, we reject these things because they're not what the Bible teaches.
 
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look

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Andrew said:
Yo Hobie,

The answer is given in the Bible:

Mr 7:13 Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.
MikeMcK said:
Actually, that verse has nothing to do with the subject at hand.

Orthodoxy doesn't reject these things because of tradition, we reject these things because they're not what the Bible teaches.

Actually, you would be hard pressed to use that or church history to back you on that...I'll tell you what, Show me where 2000 years of "Orthodoxy" does prove us wrong?

I don't want any cut and paste of someone's opinions, either. In other words, "where's the beef?"
 
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SpiritPsalmist

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MikeMcK said:
No, it's not.


May I ask what "pot shots" I've taken at you?

It's all too easy for me to dish them back and that is not beneficial to the Kingdom. I believe your bringing up old arguments. . .meaning if you look back in the thread you can see we've already gone through all of this.


Actually, if you would read my posts, you would see that I have given thoughtful responses.
MikeMcK #417 said:
No, it's still true. I was just pointing out that you were making a key mistake regarding the words of Jesus. I don't mean to nitpick but my point is that if you're so eager to assign a statement to Him that He didn't make, what other statements or teachings are you going to give Him?
MikeMcK #422 said:
Given that God killed Ananias for lying to the Holy Spirit, are you sure you want to model your Christian walk after him?
MikeMcK #422 said:
I'm sorry you feel that way. It was a point that had to be made.
Does this answer mean that you are not willing to be respectful towards us? I have felt your answers to not be thoughtful at all. . .
 
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usadingo

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look said:
Isa 53:5

(EMTV)New Testament only

(GB) But hee was wounded for our transgressions, hee was broken for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was vpon him, and with his stripes we are healed.

(KJV) But he [was] wounded for our transgressions, [he was] bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace [was] upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.

(LITV) But He was wounded for our transgressions; He was bruised for our iniquities; the chastisement of our peace was upon Him; and with His wounds we ourselves are healed.

(MSG) But it was our sins that did that to him, that ripped and tore and crushed him--our sins! He took the punishment, and that made us whole. Through his bruises we get healed.

(Webster) But he was wounded for our transgression, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.

(WNT)New Testament only

(YLT) And he is pierced for our transgressions, Bruised for our iniquities, The chastisement of our peace is on him, And by his bruise there is healing to us.

------------------------------------------------------------------------
1Pe 2:24

(EMTV) who Himself bore our sins in His body on the tree, in order that having died to sins, we might live unto righteousness--by whose stripes you were healed.

(GB) Who his owne selfe bare our sinnes in his body on the tree, that we being dead to sinne, should liue in righteousnesse: by whose stripes ye were healed.

(KJV) Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.

(LITV) who "Himself carried up in His body our sins" onto the tree; that dying to sins, we might live to righteousness, of whom "by His wound you were healed."

(MSG) He used his servant body to carry our sins to the Cross so we could be rid of sin, free to live the right way. His wounds became your healing.

(Webster) Who himself bore our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live to righteousness; by whose stripes ye were healed.

(WNT) The burden of our sins He Himself carried in His own body to the Cross and bore it there, so that we, having died so far as our sins are concerned, may live righteous lives. By His wounds yours have been healed.

(YLT) who our sins himself did bear in his body, upon the tree, that to the sins having died, to the righteousness we may live; by whose stripes ye were healed,


Wow, if you were right about the 99.9% of all theologians and scholars..., then I guess we all now know they can't read, huh? Our buddy, Peter even states that we were healed by Jesus' stripes, on the cross or tree (or whatever your prefered hanger-upper thingie is)...
Uh-huh...
Very good. You found multiple versions that still show my point.
We were healed from our iniquities, transgressions, and sins.
All spiritual.
We were "healed" from spritual death. Quit adding meaning to a word to try and prove a point.
If I said I got up in the morning and put my glasses on, we can assume I'm talking about spectacles. The reasoning you're using could be used to say I put drinking glasses on my head. It wouldn't be what I was saying, just like in these passages, physical healing is not what the author is saying.
 
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usadingo

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look said:
Luk 4:39

(EMTV) And when He stood over her, He rebuked the fever, and it left her. And immediately rising up, she began to serve them.

(GB) Then he stoode ouer her, and rebuked the feuer, and it left her, and immediatly she arose, and ministred vnto them.

(KJV) And he stood over her, and rebuked2008 the fever; and it left her: and immediately she arose and ministered unto them.

(LITV) And standing over her, He rebuked the fever; and it left her. And rising up instantly, she served them.

(MSG) He stood over her, told the fever to leave--and it left. Before they knew it, she was up getting dinner for them.

(Webster) And he stood over her, and rebuked the fever; and it left her: and immediately she arose and ministered to them.

(WNT) Then standing over her He rebuked the fever, and it left her; and she at once rose and waited on them.

(YLT) and having stood over her, he rebuked the fever, and it left her, and presently, having risen, she was ministering to them.


G2008
e̓pιtιµa´ω

epitimao¯
ep-ee-tee-mah'-o
From G1909 and G5091; to tax upon, that is, censure or admonish; by implication forbid: - (straitly) charge, rebuke.
Strong's Hebrew and Greek Dictionaries

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

G2008
e̓pιtιµa´ω

epitimao¯
Thayer Definition:
1) to show honour to, to honour
2) to raise the price of
3) to adjudge, award, in the sense of merited penalty
4) to tax with fault, rate, chide, rebuke, reprove, censure severely
4a) to admonish or charge sharply
Part of Speech: verb
A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: from G1909 and G5091
Citing in TDNT: 2:623, 249

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

For biblical examples of rebuking, read these;
Mar 9:25 When Jesus saw that the people came running together, he rebuked the foul spirit, saying unto him, [Thou] dumb and deaf spirit, I charge thee, come out of him, and enter no more into him.

Luk 9:42 And as he was yet a coming, the devil threw him down, and tare [him]. And Jesus rebuked the unclean spirit, and healed the child, and delivered him again to his father.

Mat 8:26 And he saith unto them, Why are ye fearful, O ye of little faith? Then he arose, and rebuked the winds and the sea; and there was a great calm.

Mat 17:18 And Jesus rebuked the devil; and he departed out of him: and the child was cured from that very hour.


Here is scripture where Jesus told the demons not to speak, thus signifying that He was using speech or commanding the problems on what to do;
Mar 1:34 And he healed many that were sick of divers diseases, and cast out many devils; and suffered not the devils to speak, because they knew him.

Mat 8:16 When the even was come, they brought unto him many that were possessed with devils: and he cast out the spirits with [his] word, and healed all that were sick:


-----------------------------------------------------------------------

Here is another instance of Jesus using His mouth to effect another's healing;
Luk 5:13 And he put forth [his] hand, and touched him, saying2036, I will: be thou clean. And immediately the leprosy departed from him.


G2036
e̓´pω

epo¯
ep'-o
A primary verb (used only in the definite past tense, the others being borrowed from G2046, G4483 and G5346); to speak or say (by word or writting): - answer, bid, bring word, call, command, grant, say (on), speak, tell. Compare G3004.


G2036
e̓´pω
epo¯
Thayer Definition:
1) to speak, say
Part of Speech: verb
A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: a primary verb (used only in the definite past tense, the others being borrowed from G2046, G4483, and G5346)


By now, I hope you get the idea that you are supposed to use your mouth (demand or rebuke or whatever you want to call it...) for whatever the situation calls for.
I'm going to let you in on a little secret Look...
You ready?

We're not Jesus.

As Matthew 8:17 says, Jesus healed to fulfill Isaiah's prophecy. There are passages like John 5 that show Jesus did not heal everyone who was sick. He chose one out of the group, and healed him without the man even asking for healing.
Jesus healed to show who He was, and the power He has.
Remember again, His healings also happened before His death on the cross. That's where sins were paid for. On the cross. If it happened before, it's not guarenteed.
 
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MikeMcK

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Quaffer said:
Does this answer mean that you are not willing to be respectful towards us?
Given the way you guys have tried to twist my words, such as the way you implied that I denied the teachings of Christ, I think I've been very respectful.

I thought my statement affirming your liberty to believe these things was a show of respect to you.

I have felt your answers to not be thoughtful at all. . .
I'm sorry you feel that way. Given that you have agreed with Look, dispite his taking verses out of context, applying false definitions to words and verses, outright deception and personal attacks, we obviously have different ideas of what "thoughtful is".
 
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MikeMcK

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look said:
Actually, you would be hard pressed to use that or church history to back you on that...I'll tell you what, Show me where 2000 years of "Orthodoxy" does prove us wrong?

I don't want any cut and paste of someone's opinions, either. In other words, "where's the beef?"
Wait a second, you're the one coming to a Christian message board representing heterodox views.

It's up to you to demonstrate your beliefs, not me. So far, you haven't.
 
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usadingo

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Quaffer said:
Is this the same way some parents would go out to a tree and pick the branch that looks like it can do the most damage to whip their kid with? Their gonna give that kid a "lesson he'll never forget".
Quit making my God out to be abusive.
There's a huge difference between abuse and discipline.
If you have a child reaching for an oven burner over and over again, do you let him touch it, or do you pull his hand away and say "no!"
What good father gives his children everything they want and never disciplining?


Yes I sought Him for answers. . .and He gave me the one's I have now.

Yes I prayed for healing and yes it built my faith in God. . .I learned what His Word said, I put it into practice and I saw changes. Mostly changes in my inner man. . .but I saw physical changes too.

What I learned most from the years of hemmoraging is that one really can bleed continuously, for years, and still live. Only by God's grace did I survive. I was not going to let the devil take me out without a fight.
So in other words, through your sickness, you were drawn closer to God.

I personally don't think that God planned for the mother to die so the son could come to Him. But there's no doubt He used it. . .I've never denied that God uses sickness.
And I'm saying our minds are far to limited to claim we know God's will, or to say something He may do is not from Him because it may appear cruel to us.
I'm saying that if God can put sickness on someone, use sicknesses, and remove sicknesses, who are we to claim healing is guarenteed? Isn't it up to God?

Ephesians 6:11 - 18
Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil. For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.
Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand. Stand therefore, having your loins girt about with truth, and having on the breastplate of righteousness; and your feet shod with the preparation of the gospel of peace; Above all, taking the shield of faith, wherewith ye shall be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked. And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God: Praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, and watching thereunto with all perseverance and supplication for all saints;

So what are we supposed to put on?
Truth, Righteousness, the Gospel of peace (witnessing), Faith (or, assurance of salvation), Salvation, the Word of God.
This is what I said, "Apostles and the early Church don't show these examples. There's no evidence of people building up their faith and claiming it based on certain passages. We don't see them using positive confession."
This passage may say that we are to use the Word of God, but I believe we are to use it like Jesus did when tempted by Satan. He corrected Satan, and said what scripture says.
When Jesus healed, He didn't pray to the Father claiming healing over certain passages. He simply healed.
And in this passage, there still isn't evidence of anyone using positive confession.

This does not sound like they were just sitting there waiting for God to do something.Yes, we do see them doing this and more. What about those two diciples who told the lame guy to take up his bed and walk. You don't think they rebuked something?

What about Paul when he cast a demon out of that girl that was following them all over town? I think his words were a bit more than "Lord, please them them leave us alone".

And what about when Ananias prayed for Saul (aka Paul) that the scales would be lifted from his eyes and they were.

And how about when Paul and Silas were in jail. I doubt they were singing "cum by ya".

We have many examples. . .ya just gotta notice it.
I never said demons can't cause sickness.
So then, how are we supposed to "fight off" these demons? Let's use the passage you noted earlier.
Paul tells believers to “stand” against them in God’s power using His armor. The weapons he lists for battle are: honesty, righteousness, witnessing, assurance of salvation, belief in God, and proficiency in the Scriptures. But wait, isn’t this simply obedient Christian living? Where’s the mystical mumbo jumbo — the direct encounter with the supernatural? It would appear that Christians who effectively live out their faith assault satanic oppression of a society with an onslaught that verbal rebukes cannot approach.
 
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