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Word-Faith?

Discussion in 'General Theology' started by Yekcidmij, Apr 3, 2003.

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  1. Andrew

    Andrew Well-Known Member

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    How Biblical actually...

    Heb 11:6 And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him.

    lack of faith simply = fail to "earnestly seek him". Without faith it is just impossible.

    again, how Biblical...

    Romans 4:17
    ...the God who gives life to the dead and calls things that are not as though they were.

    Mark 11
    23"I tell you the truth, if anyone says to this mountain, 'Go, throw yourself into the sea,' and does not doubt in his heart but believes that what he says will happen, he shall have whatever he says".

    there's just something about our words, just something about saying.

    Now that wld come from the devil! Gosh Christians are still confused abt this!

    Jeremiah 29:11
    For I know the plans I have for you," declares the LORD , "plans to prosper you and not to harm you, plans to give you hope and a future.

    3 John 1:2
    Beloved, I wish above all things that thou mayest prosper and be in health, even as thy soul prospereth.

    Its the devil's plan for someone to be poor and sickly.

    John 10:10
    The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy; I have come that they may have life, and have it to the full.

    The devil steals your job, steals your finances, steals your health and your organs. IOW it aint God.

    Reformation you gave a lot of angry opinions but not a single scripture.
     
  2. Gideon4God

    Gideon4God Regular Member

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    Is it true that the Dake Bible is the normative study Bible used by WofF believers?
     
  3. SavedByGrace3

    SavedByGrace3 Whoever calls on the name of Jesus will be saved Supporter

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    Sorry you fee that I am presumptuous, self-centered and ridiculous. I am just doing what Jesus said I could do.... but I did not say anything about "believing enough". I guess you were talking about someone else.


    You will have to talk that one over with God, Jesus, the Holy Spirit, and a bunch of prophets, apostles, and teachers in the Bible... I just do what they do and said I should do. God's plan for us is very clearly spelled out by Jesus. He said some wonderful things about what we can say and do! Praise Him! Sorry if you do not see this.

    Sorry if you do not think I have a humble spirit. I guess my excitment about the gospel and the promises just get the best of me. There are some wonderful promises in there!

    I agree. I have been rich, and I have been poor. But neither had any effect on my standing with God. I have been satisfied in both situations.

    I am sorry if you think this about me. I am just doing what Jesus said I could do, and it happens. I am not going to apologize for being rich or having nice things. It is unfortunate that some people do not understand this. But I am well of and God is fine with it. In fact I know He is happy for me and would prefer that all His people were well off, healthy, and satisfied with life. I do not see anything in God that would want me sick, poor, or suffering. That is just not the God I have grown to know and love.



    I guess there is a marked difference of opinion not only about what faith is and how it works, but also about what our Father God is really like. God wants you sick, poor, and suffering? Sorry. I just do not see that in Him. He is the most wonderful, beautiful, and loving heavenly Father. His love and goodwill toward you is more than you can possibly imagine. I have never received a bad gift, and evil intention, or a curse from God. Maybe I am missing something... but I thought that these things were from the devil?
    I might suggest that if you are experiencing bad things... perhaps you are execising faith for them and not even know it. What Jesus said does not just work for the good. In fact in Mark 11:22-24 he was explaining why a curse had come to pass so quickly. He had cursed a fig tree... He is also saying therefore that if you curse your own life with these sorts of evil beliefs and sayings, that you will receive what you say. I am not the origin of this saying... He is. He said you will receive what you say when you believe it. I might suggest that if you change your image of what your heavenly Father is like to that of the truth, then you will begin to receive the good things that He has for you. As long as you see Him as dark and mean, then I suppose that will limit your faith toward Him.


    Well, it was not a silver platter, it was a blood stained cross and a broken body of the savior that loved me. He redeemed me from the curse of the law which opened all this up to us.
    Sorry that you see this as presumption. It is not presumption.. it is just faith in the the goodness and love of God. Yes... I do konw that He wants the best for me (and all His Children). I will not apologize for the goodness, mercy, and love of God. That is the gospel! Praise His Name! Also, the place I am destined for has gold streets... so the gold things we have are just made of paving stone. I do not regard these things to be any more or less! Sorry if these things are a stumbling stone for you... but excuse me if I say that I think your are more hung up on material things that I am. They really do not matter to me. They are nice... and only a fool would rather live in a shack and see his children in rags. I will not apoligize for being real and honest.
    I suppose you will be very upset with me when I say that I have not stayed in a hospital or had any illness greater than a virus in the thirty plus years I have been saved. And all my children are like healthy and prosperous. And yes that is the will of God for me and all of us. That is not presumption... it is faith in the goodness, love, and mercy of God.

    I do not think anyone but you is implying that God is asking us to choose. He can save your soul, bless you spiritually, and make you healthy and prosperous... It is not an either/or proposition.

    Well, you are astonished at Jesus too then... because He said it first..."Only believe... all things are possible for them that belive"
    I hope you are not saying Jesus was presumptuous!

    I get loud sometimes... it is the result of His presence, not the means. And if you are obediant to the word, you will get loud simply because He said to get loud. Obediance is a good and faithful thing... regardless of what you feel.
    It is always God's plan to bless, heal, and answer prayer. There is no possible reason that God would will one of His children to be sick, impoverished, or cursed! Perhaps you know a different Jesus than we do?
    Well... it is unfortunate that you refuse to see Him as He is.
    As the angel said... be it unto you according to your faith.
     
  4. SavedByGrace3

    SavedByGrace3 Whoever calls on the name of Jesus will be saved Supporter

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    I have one... and use it occasionally to see what ol'Dake has to say... but my main study is from YLT, ASV, and the original Greek and Hebrew.

    Dake, like anyone who does extensive writing, will exhibit some odd things. I do not agree with a number of his interpretations and translations. But he does make some good points throughout.
     
  5. Reformationist

    Reformationist Non nobis domine sed tuo nomine da gloriam

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    Andrew, I never said that we should not seek HIS will by faith. However, that is not what those preachers that I referred to do. They seek to presume upon God to fulfill they're own will by saying that if they believe something enough in their hearts and vocalize it then it will come to pass. Additionally, they make statements to the effect that if someone is financially burdened then it's because they don't have enough faith or they just don't "believe enough." The mistake they make, and you seem to be making is that the "rewards" that the Lord bestows are not earthly rewards. THE reward is eternal life.

    You can't possibly be using this verse as support for the "name it and claim it" gospel. Look at the first two words in your own quote: "the God..." That is not a reference to a created being.

    Andrew, this is not a lesson about lacking confidence or not expecting success.  On the contrary, look at Matthew 17:19:

    Matthew 17:19
    Then the disciples came to Jesus privately and said, "Why could we not cast it out?"

    They were quite surprised by their failure.  This is an issue of having expectations that are properly grounded in relationship to God.  A tiny grain of true faith, rooted in submissiveness to God, is effective.  You see, the quantity of faith isn't what's most important but rather, the object of faith, a great and powerful God.

    Hmmm... a life characterized by having no money, suffering, serving others, and being unappreciated would come from the devil?  Let's see, who was it that had lives that could be described like that?  Oh yeah, Jesus and all of the Apostles.  I think you're looking in the wrong direction if you're looking for a confused Christian.

    So what you're saying is that when someone is poor or sickly it's because God couldn't bring about His plan in their lives but the devil can? 

    I'm not angry at all Andrew so I'm not sure what you're talking about.

    God bless
     
  6. Reformationist

    Reformationist Non nobis domine sed tuo nomine da gloriam

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    I never said you were presumptuous, self-centered or ridiculous. I said "Hinn and the Copelands speak of people not getting what they want because they don't have enough faith."

    I most certainly was referring to someone else.

    You seem to be taking a lot of what I said personally. I did not mean it in that way. For that matter, I was not judging Hinn and his compatriots. I think what he says is based on a lot of misinterpretation but I was not judging his worthiness before God. Let me ask you a question. Do you believe God accomplishes exactly what He sets out to accomplish or do you believe "what God prefers" is thwarted by His own creation?

    I'll be happy to discuss this with you but if you are just going to be misquoting me just let me know and I'll spend my time in other threads. I never said God wants us sick, poor and suffering. What God wants is for us to be sanctified. If He deems that the way that sanctification will be brought about is through being poor or sick then that is what will happen. As far as suffering, well, if you don't suffer then you're not being sanctified. The entire process of fighting against your old nature and conforming your life to the commandments of God is suffering so if you're not doing that then, well, you're not being sanctified.

    I think you are missing something, namely the fact that I never said "bad gifts, evil intentions, or curses" come from God.  What is a regular occurance, even in the lives of Christians, is to look at your life and determine your standing with God based on what you perceive is a bad or evil intentioned gift.

    LOL!  How condescending.  I don't see God as "dark and mean."  I see Him as a loving Father who works every single thing that we encounter to our being conformed to the image of His Son.  What I don't do, is what you seem to do, which is to presume upon God that just because you "believe something enough in your heart and then vocalize it" then He is obligated to bring it to pass.  Let me guess, if you "believe something in your heart" that you feel was prompted or led by the Holy Spirit and then "vocalize it" and then it doesn't come to pass then you just didn't believe enough, right?  Even if this has never happened to you it has happened to a ton of people that bought into this "name it and claim it" gospel.  There are a ton of people out there with very little money that think that if they send in their last $200 dollars to these people on T.V. and "believe enough" then their $150 electric bill can be paid if they just say, "I believe that my $200 will multiply.  That's not faith.  That's irresponsibility.

    didaskalos, look, I have read your entire post and I think the only thing that will result from this is you being offended.  I have no desire to do that.  You are so firmly entrenched in these beliefs that it would be pointless for me to argue with you about this.  It would take God Himself appearing to you and saying that these preachers are teaching a false doctrine, which I doubt will happen.  So, I wish you the best my friend.  I pray that God continues to bless you and use you to spread His love.  Let's just leave it at that.

    God bless
     
  7. SpiritPsalmist

    SpiritPsalmist Heavy lean toward Messianic Supporter

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     I've never heard any of the word of Faith teachers say they could command God to do anything. 

    However what God has commanded we can repeat.  Much like your children repeat what they hear you say.  

    Is not that what Jesus Himself said, "I do only what I see the Father do".  What's wrong with that? 



     
     
  8. CeCe

    CeCe Veteran

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    There are a few who do say that. I'm not going to name them, but it's mainly the ones who teach the "little-god" doctrine. We have to read His Word and "learn to discern". I'm not condemning these people, but I do reject what they are teaching.

    It's like a buffet. There's a lot of "stuff" out there. If it doesn't look good, leave it in the pan. If it doesn't taste right, spit it out.
     
  9. SavedByGrace3

    SavedByGrace3 Whoever calls on the name of Jesus will be saved Supporter

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    You quoted my post, and said:
    My story, and not Hinn or anyone else is what motivated your comment. And you should know that when you make comments in this way, it could hurt the faith of some. If you dislike them, or us, then so be it. But your words are not just going out into the ethros. Some people could be effected.

    Great! I thought you must have been!:clap:

    Sorry that you see it this way... but I am fine. I have met and debated literally thousands of people on these topics. Nothing you have said is new, nor does it offend me in any way. Thanks for the concern tho!

    I believe His word is settled in heaven, and if we fall in line with it, then we will too! There is nothing left to chance, and God is no respector of persons. His will for me is not different for His will for anyone else (when it comes to the results of the gospel and those things Jesus said). No one is so special that they need to be treated outside of the principles of the gospel. It saves us all to the uttermost.... when we believe it.

    And that is never the case. We are saved, sanctified, and completely restored in every way by the work of Jesus on the cross.

    1Cor 1:
    30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:

    He did all the suffering (sickness, sin, poverty, etc) on the cross. There is nothing we need to do to add to it. To imply that we need to suffer some more is to say that Jesus failed, that there is more He had to do. There is not. He is the author and finisher of our faith. All things are ours as a result of His work. All the promises of God are yes and amen.

    I was completely sancified when I was born again. There is really nothing left to do when it comes to this. We do have to overcome the flesh and renew out minds.... but this "old nature" is gone. It was removed when we were born again: "Christ is made unto us sanctification". Unless you think the new creature in us... that was made in the image of God... is somehow not really so. I believe it is. All we have to do is walk according to the impulses of the new man, and we will never sin. We cannot. His seed is in us! Praise His name!


    You are correct... I am missing what you are saying. Are you saying that I determine my standing with God by outward circumstances....
    I do not know what you mean.


    Well, sorry if you see this as a bad thing. All I can do is point out verses like Mark 11:22-24... and I guess leave it at that.

    No... you apparently did not read what I said. But that is ok. You are not going to see what I am saying now anyways. So we will just have to leave it for another time.

    I cannot speak for the ton of people... all I know is that the Word of God is true... even if nothing ever happens. He does not lie, and He knows what He is talking about. If He said it, I belive it. I have never sent any money to these people of which you speak, and I would not base my faith on that anyways. I base my faith on what Jesus said.

    I am not offended in the least by anything you say. Iwas teaching and debatiing these issues before you were born, and there is nothing you can say/have said that I have not heard a dozen times before. So say on! Perhaps some of it will soak in between the LOLs :)


    I am not arguing.. there is really nothing to argue about. I am very well off. Very healthy. My wife and kids are all very happy and solid in life. Why in the world would I want to backstep into a religion that you are describing? Quite frankly, I am not sure what it is you are trying to convince me of. To not be saved to not be prosperous, to not be healthy and full of joy at the love I have seen from my Father?? What exactly do you want me to do?

    If some image appeared to me and said the gospel as not true, that Jesus failed to sanctify me, and that the name of Jesus has no effect in heaven... then I would reject it. It would be a lie.

    No need to wish... I already have it. He has given us all things that pertain to life and Godliness. That is the good news! praise His Name!

    Thanks! God has already blessed you, and all things are yours. Believe Him. Only Believe!
     
  10. Yekcidmij

    Yekcidmij Polymath

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    didaskalos,

     

    Im trying to make sure I get this correct.  So if I just say words and believe them, I will get what I believed I would get?

     

    If I do what you did and just speak spontaneous words, even if i believe they were from the spirit, how do I know they are from the spirit?

    What if the spirit were to make me say something like "the word-faith movement is not good doctrine"?
     
  11. Andrew

    Andrew Well-Known Member

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    no. :)

    Its not some magic formula based on vain repetition.
    What you say must be a revelation you yourself see IN the WORD of God ie the Bible. It must be as if Jesus himself spoke those words to you. That real. Then only will you have the faith to believe that what you say will come to pass. Otherwise, you'll always be wondering to and fro.

    eg the scripture "By His stripes you were healed" in Isa 53. What does it mean to you? Do you really (come on be honest) believe it? What's it all about? You can repeat that a hundred times and will prob still be sick. It must come to your heart as a revelation. So you study it, meditate on it, pray abt it, meditate on it, read up on it, pray abt it, meditate on it...until it explodes as a revelation in your heart where you go I SEE IT! I SEE IT!. Then when you speak it out, confess it, it's from your heart. The word is mixed with faith. And it comes to pass. For some, the result/manifestation of healing may be instantaneous, for some it takes days, for some 2 years, whatever, but it will come to pass. There is usu a fight of faith, and that's where a lot of people give up and say WOF is nonsense. Sometimes, we confess and confess the scripture, not to twist God's arm into moving, but to convince OURSELVES! We confess, then think about what we just said, again meditate, confess, meditate. That's how you build up your faith. Everyone has to start somewhere, the sooner the better.
     
  12. SavedByGrace3

    SavedByGrace3 Whoever calls on the name of Jesus will be saved Supporter

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    An excellent question, and the answer is very important. The answer is right there in the scripture. We see it again and again.
    To answer you assumption:
    No, you cannot just "say something" and think it into happening. I used the work "think" because most people see "thinking" and "believing" to be the same. They are not. This is not "positive thinking" or Christian Science. You can memorize scripture until your eyes fall out. You can memorize the Bible from cover to cover. You can hear preaching until your ears are sore. None of this will cause you to believe a single thing.

    1. Belief is of the heart:


    Pro 3:5 Trust in the LORD with all thine heart;
    Rom 10:9 ... and shalt believe in thine heart...
    Rom 10:10 For with the heart man believeth...


    It is not of the head. In fact we are discouraged from expecting to expect anything from understanding:

    Pro 3:
    5 Trust in the LORD with all thine heart;
    and lean not unto thine own understanding.


    Many people see this as saying that you are not to doubt because you do not understand something. That is not what it is saying. It is saying not to lean on those things that you _do_ understand. We call this "mental assent". That means to mentally agree with a thing. This is good, and we should renew our minds with the word... but that is not faith. Faith is of the heart and not of the head.
    So how does one get faith?
    Look at Peter and how he came to believe:


    He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am? And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God. And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.
    (Matthew 16:15-17 KJV)


    Peter did not believe because of the words he heard. He believed by revelation from God. This is true about all faith. We do not have faith by trying to get it or even by studying. We get it from God, and that by revelation. Paul prayed for the Ephesians that they might receive this sort of revelation:


    That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him: The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints,
    (Ephesians 1:17-18 KJV)


    He wanted them to "know"...
    not in their minds, but in their spirits. When we receive knowledge in our spirits (by revelation), it is belief. When we speak those words... it is faith. "Confession" means to say the same thing as what you believe.
    Jesus said that when you believe something in your heart, and say those words, then you will have whatever you say.

    So as to your assertion that someone could say something like "word faith is not good doctrine...".
    Odd statement to be spoken...even it were true.
    More commonly people object to this teaching by saying "...what if I believe and confess that I had a bottle of booze..."
    Do you think that God would reveal that into your spirit? Remember, you have to believe it, and belief comes by revelation, not by understanding or fleshy desire. God is holy and is not going to put such a thing into your spirit. Hence you could never believe this and so you could never confess it.

    So in my story about our house... God saw we desired this... and so just gave it to us. We believed, and said what we believed. We got what we said. It is that simple.


    for verily I say to you, that whoever may say to this mount, Be taken up, and be cast into the sea, and may not doubt in his heart, but may believe that the things that he saith do come to pass, it shall be to him whatever he may say.
    (Mark 11:23 YLT)
     
  13. Yekcidmij

    Yekcidmij Polymath

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    Andrew,

    Isa. 53 is talking about the spiritual healing of sins, not the healing of sickness/illness. Refer to 1 Peter 2:24

    1 Pet. 2:24: "Who Himself bore our sins in His own body on the tree, that we, having died to sins, might live for righteousness-- by whose stripes you were healed.

    Jesus did not die so that we could be free from illness but from sin. Not, that God doesnt heal, dont get me wrong, but He doesn't heal just because you really want him to or just because we sincerely believe He will or.

    Faith is not built just by reading, confessing, meditating, and repeating again. Faith is built in everyday life through every easy and tough expirence. This "see it, believe it and it will happen" idea is nowhere in the Bible.

    Word-Faith in my opinion and my best judgement (for what thats worth) is wrong. Look for yourself, and by that I mean dont just look for things that prove you are correct but look at the other side too.

    And to save me more typing check out these very good references:
    http://www.letusreason.org/Wf10.htm
    http://www.letusreason.org/WFDir.htm
    Holy Bible
     
  14. Yekcidmij

    Yekcidmij Polymath

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    Practical Example.

    I have a crooked back; a slight curve in my spine. Now, just for the sake of an example, if I really truly believe God will straighten out my back and I speak out loud that He will, then you are saying that my spine will straighten out?

    God does not work that way. God does not teach us to pray the way you are saying.
     
  15. Yekcidmij

    Yekcidmij Polymath

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    The mormons told me something along the same lines. They kept telling me to meditate on the book of mormon and the holy spirit would reveal to me if it was true or not. They said I would know when he was speaking when I felt a "burning" in my heart.

    Didaskalos, "lean not unto your own understanding" does not mean to throw reason and common sense out the door and it doesnt mean that we shouldnt try to understand.
    Is. 1:18----"Come now, and let us reason together." says the Lord.

    "There is a way that seems right unto man, but the end thereof is death (Proverbs 14:12)."

    "He who trusts in his own heart is a fool, But he who walks wisley will be delivered.(Prov 28:26)"

    "The heart is more decietful than all else and is desperately sick. Who can understand it?"(Jer 17:7)

    I can sincerely believe from my heart many things but I can also be sincerely wrong.  Belief is not just from the heart but your heart and your head both, not exclusively one or the other.  Believing and confessing something does not make it true or come true.
     
  16. Andrew

    Andrew Well-Known Member

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    You are still thinking in terms of mere repetition of words, which is not what we are talking about.

    ...so yes he does not respond to mere repetition of words.

    Yes he does, but you still dont understnd what Hobart is trying to show you.
     
  17. artnalex

    artnalex Well-Known Member

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    I am only lurking, but I thought i would just jump in and say that the Word-Faith movement seems to be tightkly associated with people like Benny Hinn, Kenneth Copeland, and other televangelists.

    Do these people's teachings correctly represent the Word-Faith movement? Or are these people riding on the coat-tails of the Word-Faith movement?

    The posts herein have caused some confusion as to what is the Word-Faith movement, and who is associated with it?

    Thanks!
     
  18. Andrew

    Andrew Well-Known Member

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    artnalex,

    What then is exactly the Word-Faith movt to you? What is it in essence? (genuine questions) My Pastor is a Word Faith preacher too, but he doesnt subscribed to everything taught by WOF.
     
  19. JillLars

    JillLars It's a Boy! Jace David- Due 1/20/07

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    Didask, You say that you were content with being both poor and wealthy...but there is a very clear contradiction there, if you were content with being poor, you and your wife would not have vocalized your wishes to be better off.

    Dealing with sickness, I had an aunt who had breast cancer, she was a part of a group called The Way, they told her that God would heal her if she believed enough, if she had enough faith. She died. This breast cancer could have been easily cured had she gone to see a doctor about it. It has to do with responsibility as well as with faith. The same thing applies to money, God gives us the power to have responsibility in our lives...to pay our bills when they are due, rather than sending the money off and hoping that God will make it multiply. $200 dollars may not seem like a huge deal, but these false doctrines that are being taught can lead people to make irresponsible choices about not only their money, but their lives. We have choices in our lives, and God expects us to make responsible ones, we have to have faith that he will help us through because ultimately, God is in control. Do you really think that God would have wanted my aunt to sit by and die from breast cancer because she didn't have enough faith (supposedly) or do you think he would have wanted her to go and see a doctor, who he also put on this earth to help people in her very situation.

    The rewards that God gives us are not financial rewards, the reward is the kingdom of God. Jesus was God's son, therefore, Jesus had more faith in God than any of us could ever have. Jesus was not wealthy, he was not rewarded with riches and good health, he was crucified at a young age, he died for our sins. His reward was to be seated at the right hand of the father forever! If God would not reward his own son with wealth and good health, why should we expect that he will reward us in that way?
     
  20. SavedByGrace3

    SavedByGrace3 Whoever calls on the name of Jesus will be saved Supporter

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    Mar 11:
    23 For verily I say unto you, That whosoever shall say unto this mountain, Be thou removed, and be thou cast into the sea; and shall not doubt in his heart, but shall believe that those things which he saith shall come to pass; he shall have whatsoever he saith.
    24 Therefore I say unto you, What things soever ye desire, when ye pray, believe that ye receive [them], and ye shall have [them].


    I dunno Yek... I mean there it is in black and white (rather red).

    ...whosoever shall say unto this back, be thou made straight, and shall not doubt in his heart, but shall believe that those things which he saith shall come to pass; he shall have whatsoever he saith.
    Therefore I say unto you, what things soever ye desire, when ye pray, believe that ye receive [them], and ye shall have [them]...
     
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