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Word-Faith?

Discussion in 'General Theology' started by Yekcidmij, Apr 3, 2003.

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  1. Andrew

    Andrew Well-Known Member

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    I dont quite understnd your question.

    I am talking about post cross. That's why I keep refering to the atoning sacrifice of Christ and what HAS BEEN accomplished on the cross by Jesus.

    I'm sure you believe Jesus bore the sins of the world and can understnd and believe that pretty well. However, the other part which is missing from your understnding is that Jesus also bore your sicknesses and pains. If you can grasp and see that in the workd of the cross, then understnding that God wants to heal will not be so much of a problem. Simply subsitute sin with sickness and you will begin to understnd.
     
  2. israel_knight

    israel_knight New Member

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    if that is true in post cross times alot of what christ taught his disiples is false and why would he bother and can he be wrong?
     
  3. israel_knight

    israel_knight New Member

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    In the original greek
    1 Peter 2:24 reads
    "Who the sins of us himself carried up in the body of him onto the tree inorder that to sins dying to righteousness we might live of whom by the bruise ye were cured."

    and in the greek the useage indicates that it means to free from errors and sins,not physical healing.

    this is the only verese that gets qouted to me as evidence of healing becaus it says. "by whose stripes ye were healed" If i am some how mistaken i would like to find out.
     
  4. israel_knight

    israel_knight New Member

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    if this is so why didn't paul know about it and why wasn't he healed of his thorn in the flesh? did he not have enough faith?
     
  5. Andrew

    Andrew Well-Known Member

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    we need to interpret scripture in light of what happened at the cross. we are not saying that Jesus taught his disciples false things. certainly not. but the Bible does say Jesus was born under law, and had to 'obey' the laws too. but we the church are no longer under law.

    I will quote from my article:

    Healing and health

    The literal truth about Isaiah 53:3-5


    Besides our sins, Jesus also bore our sicknesses and pains on the cross. He was also whipped 39 times on His back (till His flesh was torn and His bones exposed) to buy us healing.

    * Isaiah 53:4,5
    4 Surely he hath borne our griefs [sicknesses], and carried our sorrows [pains]: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.
    5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.


    The original Hebrew words for "griefs" and "sorrows" are actually "sicknesses" and "pains" (physical and mental) respectively (see Strong's numbers 02483 and 04341). The translation is thus unfortunate. You can check with Young's Literal Translation too, or ask any Christian Jew what his Hebrew Bible says.

    Some have insisted that Isaiah 53:4 has to do with spiritual healing only. But let the Bible interpret the Bible. The verses are quoted again in Matthew 8:17 and 1 Peter 2:24. How does the Holy Spirit translate Isaiah 53:4 in Matthew 8:15? He says, "Himself took our infirmities, and bare our sicknesses", implying physical healing.

    * Matthew 8:15-17
    15 And he touched her hand, and the fever left her: and she arose, and ministered unto them.
    16 When the even was come, they brought unto him many that were possessed with devils: and he cast out the spirits with his word, and healed all that were sick:
    17 That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Esaias the prophet, saying, Himself took our infirmities, and bare our sicknesses.


    Moreover, the immediate context of Matthew 8:17 (verses 15 and 16) proves that the verse is referring to physical healing. This is not to say that spiritual healing is excluded as demons were cast out too.

    Note also that the word "Surely" is used in Isaiah 53:4. It is as though God knew that Christians would not have difficulty believing that Jesus bore their sins, but would find it hard to believe that Jesus also bore their sicknesses and pains, hence, He added the word "Surely"! You don't find that "double assurance" in verse 5, which talks about Christ bearing and suffering for our sins.

    The verse before Isaiah 53:4 says:

    * Isaiah 53:3
    3 He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows [pains], and acquainted with grief [sicknesses]: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not.


    Again, the original Hebrew words for "griefs" and "sorrows" are "sicknesses" and "pains" (physical and mental). The translation here is also inaccurate.

    As with verse 4, verse 3 is talking about Jesus' suffering on the cross -- He became a man of pains and sicknesses because He was carrying all our physical and mental pains, as well as all our diseases. In fact, His face and body were so disfigured by the pains and diseases that those who saw Him were appalled and hid their faces from Him (verse 3).

    * Isaiah 52:14
    14 As many were astonied at thee; his visage was so marred more than any man, and his form more than the sons of men:


    In Isaiah 53:5, it says:

    * Isaiah 53:5
    5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.


    The Hebrew word for "peace" here is "shalom" (see Strong's number 07965). It is a very rich word and means completeness (in number); safety, soundness (in body); welfare, health, prosperity; peace, quiet, tranquillity, contentment; peace, friendship (of human relationships and with God especially in covenant relationship); peace (from war) and peace (as an adjective).

    Jesus was punished in our place so that we could have "shalom", which includes health and prosperity!

    Now, Isaiah and Paul both asked, "Who hath believed our report?" In other words, can we believe this wonderful aspect of the gospel -- that Christ also bore our sicknesses and pains, besides our sins?

    * Isaiah 53:1
    1 Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the LORD revealed?
    * Romans 10:16
    16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?


    If Christians would believe and receive this report gladly, then "the arm of the LORD" -- His miraculous powers -- will be revealed to them.

    There is a lot more to say, but I'm lazy to cut and paste so pls if you have time, read about the bronze serpent & redeemed from every type of sickness here:

    http://sg.geocities.com/saltandlight5/communion.html
     
  6. israel_knight

    israel_knight New Member

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    If this is true then what about pauls affliction? Why did christ upon his return still bear the nail scared hands etc. if he was under the law surely he would be under the healthing as well.
     
  7. look

    look A New Species of Man®

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    This is from a newsletter from http://www.livingfaithchristiancenter.org/articles/article40.htm

    There is probably no other teaching that has kept more people from receiving their healing than the teaching about Paul’s thorn in the flesh. People have said that his thorn was either some form of eye disease or they will name any other number of ailments that they believe that it was. But let’s be smart and look to the Bible and see for ourselves what his thorn was. Because the Bible is the truth, and when we know the truth it will set us free (John 17:17; John 8:32). The only thing more powerful than the Word of God is the traditions of men (Matthew 15:6). Mans traditional, religious thinking has kept many out of the promises of God. So in the coming months as we look at Paul’s thorn lets forget what we thought we knew about it, and what our religious training has taught us. And lets look into God’s Word with open eyes and an open heart and receive all that He has for us.

    “And lest I should be exalted above measure by the abundance of the revelations, a thorn in the flesh was given to me, a messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I be exalted above measure. Concerning this thing I pleaded with the Lord three times that it might depart from me. And He said to me, “My grace is sufficient for you, for My strength is made perfect in weakness.” Therefore most gladly I will rather boast in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me. Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in needs, in persecutions, in distresses, for Christ’s sake. For when I am weak, then I am strong.” (2 Corinthians 12:7-10 NKJV).

    In other articles we will deal with the different issues of this scripture but for right now I want to deal with what the thorn in the flesh was. First off, I would like to state that it was not sickness or disease. Paul listed all his sufferings in 2 Corinthians chapter 11, verses 22 – 27; sickness and disease were not among them. He listed beatings, imprisonment, being stoned, shipwrecks, being hungry and naked; but he did not mention being sick.

    Really what the thorn in the flesh is isn’t a mystery. Paul tells us himself in the scripture. He says it was “a messenger from Satan”. What does that mean? Paul is talking about a demonic spirit or angel that stirred up trouble for him everywhere Paul went. The word “messenger” in both the Old Testament and the New Testament refers to a personality, never a thing. And it wasn’t a messenger sent from God to buffet Paul. Jesus came to destroy the works of the devil, not to employ the devil (1 John 3:8). God doesn’t use Satan’s messengers He has His own. The revelations came from God, but the messenger was from Satan.

    The term “thorn in the flesh” is used as a figure of speech just like we would say, “that guy is a real pain in the neck.” Well he is not literally, it is just a figure of speech and most people nowadays know what you are saying. When God brought the children of Israel into Canaan to give them the land He told them that if they did not drive out the Canaanites they would be thorns in the Israelites sides and irritants in their eyes. “But if you do not drive out the inhabitants of the land from before you, then it shall be that those whom you let remain shall be irritants in your eyes and thorns in your sides, and they shall harass you in the land where you dwell.” (Numbers 33:55 NKJV). Did God mean that they would be literally sticking in the Israelites eyes and sides of course not, it is a figure of speech. In Joshua chapter 23 verse 13, it is the same scenario. God told them if they failed to drive out the inhabitants of that land and instead took wives among them and clung to those nations choosing their ways over God’s the inhabitants would be scourges in their sides and thorns in their eyes. “But they shall be snares and traps to you, and scourges on your sides and thorns in your eyes, until you perish from this good land which the Lord your God has given you.” (Joshua 23:13 NKJV) (Another scripture to check is Judges 2:2,3.) I believe that we can see that the “thorn in the flesh” is not referring to a thing, or sickness and disease but the scripture clearly states that it is a messenger from Satan, a personality sent to buffet Paul and stop his ministry.

    I know, I know...

    I don't have a whole lot of time this morning so I just pasted this, but you gotta admit, it got the point across...

    Blessings... :)
     
  8. SpiritPsalmist

    SpiritPsalmist Heavy lean toward Messianic Supporter

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    http://www.christianforums.com/t41121&page=28 Please see post 276 for the breakdown of this verse from blueletterbible.com
     
  9. usadingo

    usadingo Member

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    I've posted it before, but Psalm 119 gives us a pretty clear indication.

    Verse 67- "Before I was afflicted I went astray, but now I keep Thy word."

    Verse 91- "It is good for me that I was afflicted, that I may learn Thy statutes."

    Verse 75- "I know, O LORD, that Thy judgments are righteous, and that in faithfulness Thou hast afflicted me."

    It seems odd that if David was inspired by God to write such things, they would be contrary to what God says.

    Nope. Not if it's found in Scripture.

    2 Kings 15:5- "And the Lord struck the King, so that he was a leper to the day of his death."

    Where does it say this? I'm not doubting you, I'm more curious than anything.
    And again and again, I never have said, say, or will ever say that God doesn't heal. I simply say that God does not promise us healing while on this earth. If He did, why would we "groan inwardly" for the redemption of our bodies from this world of decay?

    Explain to me how God can "test our hearts" without using something to test with?
    I'm simply saying God can do things like test our loyalty to follow Him by using things like sickness.

    It's simple. I don't believe healing is promised.
    I believe in an all powerful God that can do anything He wants, regardless of what we do, or do not do. After all, He created everything.
     
  10. usadingo

    usadingo Member

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    Physically?
    Forgive me for any misunderstanding, but what do you mean here?

    Ok, here's the short version in response.
    What type of thing does each key word define?

    Transgressions- Spiritual
    Iniquities- Spiritual
    Healed- Spiritual and Physical
    Sins- Spiritual

    Peter and Isaiah both say that we were healed of our transgressions, iniquities, or sins. All spiritual matters. Just because "healed" is a term that can be applied to physical matters, doesn't mean that in these passages it's stated as well. After all, we were considered spiritually dead without Christ. Thus, we are "healed" from that death.
    I honestly don't see any reference to physical healing being covered in these verses at all. No offense of course.

    The question I'm left asking though is, why would God heal through a doctor when He has the power to heal by no means? And if we are not healed (no matter what means are used) than who's fault is it, and why did it not happen?
     
  11. usadingo

    usadingo Member

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    Huge huge difference though.
    Many do not go down at alter calls because they do not believe. However, if they did, and went down and did everything because they believe, they would be saved at that exact moment.
    With healing, we see many people, like the lady Israel mentioned, who go down for healing over and over again, but are never healed.

    Here's what I, and what I think Israel believe.
    God gives us what He promises. The reason things like sickness are not always granted are because they're not promised.
     
  12. usadingo

    usadingo Member

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    Problem is, verses like Matthew 8:16 state that the healing Jesus did was to fulfill prophecy. Since we all seem to be fans of definitions, let's see how fulfill is defined...

    Fulfill
    SYLLABICATION: ful·fill
    PRONUNCIATION: AUDIO: fl-fl
    VARIANT FORMS: also ful·fil
    TRANSITIVE VERB: Inflected forms: ful·filled, ful·fill·ing, ful·fills also ful·fils
    1. To bring into actuality; effect: fulfilled their promises.
    2. To carry out (an order, for example).
    3. To measure up to; satisfy. See synonyms at perform. , satisfy.
    4. To bring to an end; complete.

    I underlined #4, in case you were wondering. Now, if this is true, then Jesus' healings were completed BEFORE the cross. And if He died for our sins, then healing is not included.
     
  13. SavedByGrace3

    SavedByGrace3 Whoever calls on the name of Jesus will be saved Supporter

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    I cor 15 says that Jesus died for our sins "... according to the scriptures...". Does the fact that this action fulfilled prophecy somehow annul what He did?
    He did die for our sins, and He did fulfill prophecy when He did it.
    He also suffered for our sicknesses, and also fulfilled prophecy.

    Jesus did not just go around fulfilling prophecy just to be doing it.
     
  14. SpiritPsalmist

    SpiritPsalmist Heavy lean toward Messianic Supporter

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    dingo,

    OK. . .well, I can see I did not word that very well :(

    What I meant to say is that we are being conformed into His image.

    I do not believe He is sick. I believe there is no darkness whatsoever in Him. Therefore as I take in more of Him by communion and fellowship with Him and reading His Word and letting that Word permeate my being, and changing my heart then whatever darkness is in me that is keeping me from WHOLENESS, will have no room and will have to leave.

    As far as you not seeing physical healing in those scriptures. . .To me, I see that there is WHOLENESS. Not 1/3, not 1/2, but whole. I never made good grades in math but I know that 1/3 does not make a whole.

    When Jesus told the woman that her faith had made her whole. . .would you say it meant spiritual only? If so, why do you suppose she was physically healed? Only to fulfill scripture? Would you say then that Christ studied scripture, and then healed people, not out of compasson for the hurting but just to systematically prove Who He was?
     
  15. look

    look A New Species of Man®

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    Ah yes, the famous "sin of Uzziah"? What did you expect? Uzziah (He was the king of 2 Kings 15:5 and his name was also Azariah) had stepped out of his office as king and stepped over into the office of priest. He had commited the grievous sin of "offering up strange incense" to God. (2Ch 26:16-21)

    It wasn't like Uzziah didn't know the Law regarding the strange fire and incense, after all, he knew his country's history.

    Leviticus 10:1 tells us about the sons of Aaron who offered "strange incense" before the Lord. And in verse 2, it says that God was so displeased that fire went out from Him and devoured them.

    the whole chapter of Numbers 16 tells us of what happened in the wilderness when some of the children of Israel murmured against God. Very sad tale indeed...all because of pride...:(

    Look in Psa 38:7-11, for King David's veneral disease...:sick:

    Just out of curiosity, would not you equate that to the judgements of the sinners that take place during the tribulation period?

    How fortunate we are to be alive in this time of God's Grace and Mercy!!! When the tribulation starts, the time or "age" of mercy will be over...Is it any wonder that healing is provided in the Atonement?

    Brother, I hope you can see that the "church age" is a very special time to live in and snatch people out of the clutches of sin! When the age is over, we are going home! [​IMG]
     
  16. Andrew

    Andrew Well-Known Member

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    The traditional belief is that Paul's thorn was some kind of sickness, with speculations ranging from migraine to eye disease to...

    In the olden days, this was taught becos people did not believe in a God of miracles, so they had to find verses to support what they see and experience in the natural. This myth has been already debunked a long time ago, using proper Bible study and interpretation principles (basically, let the Bible tell you what "thorn" means). Unfortunately, the damage done continues till today.

    If you are interested to know what Paul's thorn really is, read:

    http://sg.geocities.com/saltandlight5/thorn.html

    I present a systematic and consistent argument based on the Bible, not wild speculations to fit human experiences.
     
  17. Andrew

    Andrew Well-Known Member

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    That is strange logic and reasoning. So Jesus also fulfilled prophecy when he died for our sins. Does that mean people cant be saved anymore becos this prophecy has been fulfilled? For your info, when a person gets saved today, Jesus does not leave the throne and go back to the cross to die again for this new convert.

    Anyway, you are off track becos I'm talking about Isa 53. There is simply no denying that "SURELY", Jesus "bore our sicknesses and carried our pains". If you refuse to believe this reports, then the arm and power of the Lord cannot be revealed to you becos of unbelief.
     
  18. Andrew

    Andrew Well-Known Member

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    Again, you failed to read the context.

    Some have insisted that Isaiah 53:4 has to do with spiritual healing only. But let the Bible interpret the Bible. The verses are quoted again in Matthew 8:17 and 1 Peter 2:24. How does the Holy Spirit translate Isaiah 53:4 in Matthew 8:15? He says, "Himself took our infirmities, and bare our sicknesses", implying physical healing.

    * Matthew 8:15-17
    15 And he touched her hand, and the fever left her: and she arose, and ministered unto them.
    16 When the even was come, they brought unto him many that were possessed with devils: and he cast out the spirits with his word, and healed all that were sick:
    17 That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Esaias the prophet, saying, Himself took our infirmities, and bare our sicknesses.


    Moreover, the immediate context of Matthew 8:17 (verses 15 and 16) proves that the verse is referring to physical healing. This is not to say that spiritual healing is excluded as demons were cast out too.

    Jesus touched her hand and the fever left her, and "and healed all that were sick" -- Now, is that purely spiritual matters? So, you mean it was a "spiritual fever" Peter's mother had? Or the fever only left "spiritually"? And she arose and ministered to them "spiritually"? IOW she didnt really get healed?
     
  19. israel_knight

    israel_knight New Member

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    So if we are promised healing just as we are salvation doesn't the same criteria apply? How can people that are not saved and do not meet any of the requirements be healed?
     
  20. israel_knight

    israel_knight New Member

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    Do spirit filled pastors have the power to heal and do other miracles as long as the people have faith.
     
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