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Discussion in 'General Theology' started by Yekcidmij, Apr 3, 2003.

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  1. look

    look A New Species of Man®

    Word of Faith
    I apologize USADINGO and 4sightsounds, I was angry (be angry but sin not) when I said that. But really, at this moment of time, which denomination is doing the most evangelistic work? After that question is answered, which of those are staying behind and teaching the baby christians (in their language), the Word of God? After answering all questions, then tell me how far their outreach is, into countries you can't even get into?

    That was my challenge, as badly worded as it was...[​IMG]
  2. look

    look A New Species of Man®

    Word of Faith
    James 1:13;
    • NASB... And remember, no one who wants to do wrong should ever say, "God is tempting me." God is never tempted to do wrong, and he never tempts anyone else either.
    • Contemporary English Version...Don't blame God when you are tempted! God cannot be tempted by evil, and he doesn't use evil to tempt others.
    • Message Translation...Don't let anyone under pressure to give in to evil say, "God is trying to trip me up." God is impervious to evil, and puts evil in no one's way.

    Are you [​IMG]?
  3. usadingo

    usadingo Member

    Here's the problem that I see...
    Disobeying God is a sin. Therefore, can't we make the logical conclusion that seeing doctors and taking medicine is a sin?

    I always loved how as a PK, I got one of two stereotypes. We're either devil children, or perfect angels. Ha! I defied both! I was a perfect angel turned devil child turned perfect angel!
    Ok, well, I'm not perfect. My wife says I'm pretty cool though.
  4. usadingo

    usadingo Member

    Debates are like playing chess. Sometimes you say something to get a reaction so you can respond to it. You should really know what I might try to do before you open your mouth at what I say.

    My point is this...
    The Word of Faith movement bases entire messages on one word. I once heard Charles Capps use the KJV of Hebrews 11:1 to support his theory that faith is a physical substance. Other translations reveal the word is best translated "assurance" and NOT "substance."
    It's odd that a movement so caught up in words would find such difference in the word "fear."

    More evidence that you're not listening. I don't have kids.

    Thanks! I get them from the Bible.

    Good thing Christianity is relational, huh?

    To make that claim, you first have to prove that their work is actually benefitting the Kingdom, which I think is far from the truth.
    I'll stick with Billy Graham, Compasion International, and other ministries I trust.
  5. usadingo

    usadingo Member

    And yet you claim God IS just like us by saying things like "A father would never teach his kids a lesson by putting sickness on them." (that's paraphrased and not word for word)
    It's a fact that if we try to control a kid and give them no free will, they'll rebel. I don't believe God would use a method that causes people to rebel from Him.
    And under your theory of God, a truely loving God would force His healing upon his sick children. But He doesn't, as you say. As a result, under this theory, God is weak and not all powerful. He can't do anything unless we let Him.

    Throw around labels all you want. The beautiful thing about truth is that no matter what you do to it, it remains true.
    Someone could say that the concept of gravity is "religious thinking." No matter what someone calls it, the apple still falls when it's free from the branch.
  6. usadingo

    usadingo Member

    No, if I wanted to be "religious" I would attend a church that teaches things like saying the right words, and praying just the right way, and believing and receiving enough things to obtain the things I want.
    Instead, I'll stick with my relational faith that teaches God is all loving, has created a special place for us, has sent His Son to die for us so we can spend eternity with Him, and allows us to come to Him without pre-written prayers or with words that are not our own.
  7. usadingo

    usadingo Member

    I never said God tempted. He tests, but doesn't tempt.
    Look up "test" in the Bible to see if God uses it and get back to me.
  8. SpiritPsalmist

    SpiritPsalmist Heavy lean toward Messianic Supporter

    United States
    If we want to conclude that God has said "don't go to a human doctor or have anything to do with them in any way", then yes, that would be a logical conclusion. However, scripture not only does not teach that, but I have not had God say that to me. So, the way I see it, is that since God has not told me "not" to go, I am not disobeying Him. When/if God does, and I don't obey, then. . .I will be in disobedience.

    HaHa. . .I was considered a "goody two shoes" by the PK's I hung with and I really was a pretty good kid. But my mother, who was abusive, thought I was the worst kid in the world and constantly compared me with the PK's. . .but I knew them. ;) I'm sure your wife is a good judge of character. :)
  9. look

    look A New Species of Man®

    Word of Faith
    I don't have the following Bibles;
    • Amplified Bible
    • English Standard Version
    • New American Bible
    • New English Translation
    • New International Version
    • New King James Bible
    • New Living Translation
    • New Revised Standard Version
    • Revised Standard Version

    However, because I have nothing to do for the moment, I'll do your homework with the Bibles I do have.

    You will have to find my posts further down here...It takes two pages... :)
  10. look

    look A New Species of Man®

    Word of Faith
    I have examined all of these verses and there are no scriptural records to substantiate your inference from your combined statements
    • Who says it's God's will for me to be sick? Who says it isn't? We do not know God's will.
    • I never said God tempted. He tests, but doesn't tempt.
      Look up "test" in the Bible to see if God uses it and get back to me.

    In all of the references I have found, NONE say, directly or indirectly, that God uses sickness or disease to "test" us.

    The folowing are the scriptures with the name of the translation or version that I found the word "test";
    • But Jesus, knowing their wickedness, said, "Why do you test Me, you hypocrites?
      (Matthew 22:18 EMTV) English Majority Text Version of the Holy Bible, New Testament. Copyright © 2002-2003 Paul W. Esposito
    • Should we give, or should we not give?" But He, knowing their hypocrisy, said to them, "Why do you test Me? Bring Me a denarius, that I may see it."
      (Mark 12:15 EMTV)
    • And another said, 'I bought five yoke of oxen, and I am going to test them. I ask you, have me excused.'
      (Luke 14:19 EMTV)
    • But perceiving their craftiness, He said to them, "Why do you test Me?
      (Luke 20:23 EMTV)
    • But this He said to test him, for He Himself knew what He was about to do.
      (John 6:6 EMTV)
    • Now therefore, why do you test God by putting a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?
      (Acts 15:10 EMTV)
    • each one's work shall be made manifest; for the Day shall reveal it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall test each one's work, as to what sort it is.
      (1 Corinthians 3:13 EMTV)
    • For to this end I also wrote, so that I might put you to the test, to see if you are obedient in all things.
      (2 Corinthians 2:9 EMTV)
    • But test all things; hold fast that which is good.
      (1 Thessalonians 5:21 EMTV)
    • Beloved, do not be surprised by the fiery trial among you, taking place to test you, as though some strange thing was happening to you;
      (1 Peter 4:12 EMTV)
    • Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits, whether they are from God; because many false prophets have gone out into the world.
      (1 John 4:1 EMTV)
    • Because you have kept My command to persevere, I also will keep you from the hour of temptation which is about to come upon the whole world, to test those that dwell upon the earth.
      (Revelation 3:10 EMTV)
    • And Jehovah said to Moses, Behold, I AM! Bread will rain from the heavens for you. And the people shall go out and gather the matter of a day in its day, so that I may test them, whether they will walk in My Law or not.
      (Exodus 16:4 LITV) Literal Translation of the Holy Bible, Copyright © 1976-2000 by Jay P. Green, Sr. All rights reserved.
    • And Moses said to the people, Do not be afraid, for God has come in order to test you, and so that His fear may be on your faces, that you may not sin.
      (Exodus 20:20 LITV)
    • You shall not test Jehovah your God as you tested Him in Massah.
      (Deuteronomy 6:16 LITV)
    • so that by them I may test Israel, whether they are keeping the way of Jehovah, to go in it, as their fathers kept it, or not.
      (Judges 2:22 LITV)
    • And these are the nations which Jehovah left in order to test Israel by them, all who did not know all the wars of Canaan;
      (Judges 3:1 LITV)
    • And they existed to test Israel by them, to know whether they would listen to the commands of Jehovah, which He had commanded their fathers by the hand of Moses.
      (Judges 3:4 LITV)
    • And the queen of Sheba heard of the fame of Solomon as to the name of Jehovah, and she came to test him with hard questions.
      (1 Kings 10:1 LITV)
    • And the queen of Sheba had heard of Solomon's fame. And she came to test Solomon with sharp questions at Jerusalem, with a very great train, and camels bearing spices, and gold in abundance, and precious stones. And she came in to Solomon and spoke with him all that was in her heart.
      (2 Chronicles 9:1 LITV)
    • Even so with the envoys of the rulers of Babylon, those sent to him to inquire of the wonder that had been in the land, God left him to test him, to know all his heart.
      (2 Chronicles 32:31 LITV)
    • You will test my heart; You will visit in the night; You will refine me; You will find nothing; my thoughts do not pass beyond my mouth.
      (Psalms 17:3 LITV)
    • I said in my heart, Come now, I will test you with mirth. Therefore, consider with goodness. And behold, this also is vanity.
      (Ecclesiastes 2:1 LITV)
    • I said in my heart concerning the issue of the sons of men, that God may test them and see that they by themselves are beasts.
      (Ecclesiastes 3:18 LITV)
    • For this reason, so says Jehovah of Hosts, Behold, I will refine them and test them. For what else can I do because of the daughter of My people?
      (Jeremiah 9:7 LITV)
    • because it is a test. And what if even the despising rod shall not be? declares the Lord Jehovah.
      (Ezekiel 21:13 LITV)
    • Please, test your servants ten days. And let vegetables be given to us that we may eat, and water that we may drink.
      (Daniel 1:12 LITV)
    • Bring all the tithe into the storehouse, so that there may be food in My house. And test Me now with this, says Jehovah of Hosts, whether I will not open the windows of the heavens for you and pour out a blessing until there is no sufficiency of room to store it.
      (Malachi 3:10 LITV)
    • And now we are calling the arrogant blessed. Not only are the doers of wickedness built up, they also test God, and escape.
      (Malachi 3:15 LITV)
    • But knowing their wickedness, Jesus said, Why do you test Me, hypocrites?
      (Matthew 22:18 LITV)
    • But He said this to test him, for He knew what He was about to do.
      (John 6:6 LITV)
    • Now, then, why do you test God by putting a yoke on the neck of the disciples which neither our fathers nor we had strength to bear?
      (Acts 15:10 LITV)
    • Neither test Christ, as some of them tried Him, and perished by serpents.
      (1 Corinthians 10:9 LITV)
    • Examine yourselves, whether you are in the faith; test yourselves. Or do you not yourselves perceive that Jesus Christ is in you, unless you are disapproved?
      (2 Corinthians 13:5 LITV)
    • Test all things, hold fast the good.
      (1 Thessalonians 5:21 LITV)
    • Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits, whether they are from God; for many false prophets have gone forth into the world.
      (1 John 4:1 LITV)
  11. look

    look A New Species of Man®

    Word of Faith
    • This is how I'll test you. As Pharaoh lives, you're not going to leave this place until your younger brother comes here.
      (Genesis 42:15 MSG) This edition issued by contractual agreement with NavPress, a division of The Navigators, U.S.A. Originally published by NavPress in English as The Message: The Bible in Contemporary Language Copyright © 2002 By Eugene Peterson. All Rights Reserved.
    • GOD said to Moses, "I'm going to rain bread down from the skies for you. The people will go out and gather each day's ration. I'm going to test them to see if they'll live according to my Teaching or not.
      (Exodus 16:4 MSG)
    • Moses spoke to the people: "Don't be afraid. God has come to test you and instill a deep and reverent awe within you so that you won't sin."
      (Exodus 20:20 MSG)
    • the God who gave you manna to eat in the wilderness, some- -thing your ancestors had never heard of, in order to give you a taste of the hard life, to test you so that you would be prepared to live well in the days ahead of you.
      (Deuteronomy 8:16 MSG)
    • I'll use them to test Israel and see whether they stay on GOD's road and walk down it as their parents did."
      (Judges 2:22 MSG)
    • These are the nations that GOD left there, using them to test the Israelites who had no experience in the Canaanite wars.
      (Judges 3:1 MSG)
    • They were there to test Israel and see whether they would obey GOD's commands that were given to their parents through Moses.
      (Judges 3:4 MSG)
    • The queen of Sheba heard about Solomon and his connection with the Name of GOD. She came to put his reputation to the test by asking tough questions.
      (1 Kings 10:1 MSG)
    • The queen of Sheba heard of Solomon's reputation and came to Jerusalem to put his reputation to the test, asking all the tough questions. She made a showy entrance--an impressive retinue of attendants and camels loaded with perfume and much gold and precious stones. She emptied her heart to Solomon, talking over everything she cared about.
      (2 Chronicles 9:1 MSG)
    • But when the rulers of Babylon sent emissaries to find out about the sign from God that had taken place earlier, God left him on his own to see what he would do; he wanted to test his heart.
      (2 Chronicles 32:31 MSG)
    • "But he knows where I am and what I've done. He can cross-examine me all he wants, and I'll pass the test with honors.
      (Job 23:10 MSG)
    • Fail the test and you're out, out in a hail of firestones, Drinking from a canteen filled with hot desert wind.
      (Psalms 11:6 MSG)
    • "Don't turn a deaf ear as in the Bitter Uprising, As on the day of the Wilderness Test,
      (Psalms 95:8 MSG)
    • when your ancestors turned and put me to the test.
      (Psalms 95:9 MSG)
    • Investigate my life, O God, find out everything about me; Cross-examine and test me, get a clear picture of what I'm about;
      (Psalms 139:23 MSG)
    • I'll deliver the surviving third to the refinery fires. I'll refine them as silver is refined, test them for purity as gold is tested. Then they'll pray to me by name and I'll answer them personally. I'll say, 'That's my people.' They'll say, 'GOD--my God!'"
      (Zechariah 13:9 MSG)
    • Bring your full tithe to the Temple treasury so there will be ample provisions in my Temple. Test me in this and see if I don't open up heaven itself to you and pour out blessings beyond your wildest dreams.
      (Malachi 3:10 MSG)
    • Next Jesus was taken into the wild by the Spirit for the Test. The Devil was ready to give it.
      (Matthew 4:1 MSG)
    • Jesus prepared for the Test by fasting forty days and forty nights. That left him, of course, in a state of extreme hunger,
      (Matthew 4:2 MSG)
    • which the Devil took advantage of in the first test: "Since you are God's Son, speak the word that will turn these stones into loaves of bread."
      (Matthew 4:3 MSG)
    • For the second test the Devil took him to the Holy City. He sat him on top of the Temple and said,
      (Matthew 4:5 MSG)
    • Jesus countered with another citation from Deuteronomy: "Don't you dare test the Lord your God."
      (Matthew 4:7 MSG)
    • For the third test, the Devil took him on the peak of a huge mountain. He gestured expansively, pointing out all the earth's kingdoms, how glorious they all were.
      (Matthew 4:8 MSG)
    • The Test was over. The Devil left. And in his place, angels! Angels came and took care of Jesus' needs.
      (Matthew 4:11 MSG)
    • As the Pharisees were regrouping, Jesus caught them off balance with his own test question:
      (Matthew 22:41 MSG)
    • The Devil, playing on his hunger, gave the first test: "Since you're God's Son, command this stone to turn into a loaf of bread."
      (Luke 4:3 MSG)
    • For the second test he led him up and spread out all the kingdoms of the earth on display at once.
      (Luke 4:5 MSG)
    • For the third test the Devil took him to Jerusalem and put him on top of the Temple. He said, "If you are God's Son, jump.
      (Luke 4:9 MSG)
    • Just then a religion scholar stood up with a question to test Jesus. "Teacher, what do I need to do to get eternal life?"
      (Luke 10:25 MSG)
    • Anyone who wants to do his will can test this teaching and know whether it's from God or whether I'm making it up.
      (John 7:17 MSG)
    • Don't be nitpickers; use your head--and heart!--to discern what is right, to test what is authentically right."
      (John 7:24 MSG)
    • No test or temptation that comes your way is beyond the course of what others have had to face. All you need to remember is that God will never let you down; he'll never let you be pushed past your limit; he'll always be there to help you come through it.
      (1 Corinthians 10:13 MSG)
    • With that as a base to work from, common sense can take you the rest of the way. Eat anything sold at the butcher shop, for instance; you don't have to run an "idolatry test" on every item.
      (1 Corinthians 10:25 MSG)
    • Examine your motives, test your heart, come to this meal in holy awe.
      (1 Corinthians 11:28 MSG)
    • Test yourselves to make sure you are solid in the faith. Don't drift along taking everything for granted. Give yourselves regular checkups. You need firsthand evidence, not mere hearsay, that Jesus Christ is in you. Test it out. If you fail the test, do something about it.
      (2 Corinthians 13:5 MSG)
    • I hope the test won't show that we have failed.
      (2 Corinthians 13:6 MSG)
    • But if it comes to that, we'd rather the test showed our failure than yours.
      (2 Corinthians 13:7 MSG)
    • you'll be able to take in with all Christians the extravagant dimensions of Christ's love. Reach out and experience the breadth! Test its length! Plumb the depths! Rise to the heights!
      (Ephesians 3:18 MSG)
    • So this is my prayer: that your love will flourish and that you will not only love much but well. Learn to love appropriately. You need to use your head and test your feelings
      (Philippians 1:9 MSG)
    • Here's how you tell the difference between God's children and the Devil's children: The one who won't practice righteous ways isn't from God, nor is the one who won't love brother or sister. A simple test.
      (1 John 3:10 MSG)
    • Here's how you test for the genuine Spirit of God. Everyone who confesses openly his faith in Jesus Christ--the Son of God, who came as an actual flesh-and-blood person--comes from God and belongs to God.
      (1 John 4:2 MSG)
    • But we come from God and belong to God. Anyone who knows God understands us and listens. The person who has nothing to do with God will, of course, not listen to us. This is another test for telling the Spirit of Truth from the spirit of deception.
      (1 John 4:6 MSG)
    • The reality test on whether or not we love God's children is this: Do we love God? Do we keep his commands?
      (1 John 5:2 MSG)
    • "Because you kept my Word in passionate patience, I'll keep you safe in the time of testing that will be here soon, and all over the earth, every man, woman, and child put to the test.
      (Revelation 3:10 MSG)
    • and one of them, an expounder of the Law, asked Him as a test question,
      (Matthew 22:35 WNT) Weymouth New Testament 1912
    • Then an expounder of the Law stood up to test Him with a question. "Rabbi," he asked, "what shall I do to inherit the Life of the Ages?"
      (Luke 10:25 WNT)
    • Others, to put Him to the test, asked Him for a sign in the sky.
      (Luke 11:16 WNT)
    • And this is the test by which men are judged--the Light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness more than they loved the Light, because their deeds were wicked.
      (John 3:19 WNT)
    • He said this to put Philip to the test, for He Himself knew what He was going to do.
      (John 6:6 WNT)
    • They asked this in order to put Him to the test, so that they might have some charge to bring against Him. But Jesus leant forward and began to write with His finger on the ground.
      (John 8:6 WNT)
    • and know the supreme will, and can test things that differ--being a man who receives instruction from the Law--
      (Romans 2:18 WNT)
    • the true character of each individual's work will become manifest. For the day of Christ will disclose it, because that day is soon to come upon us clothed in fire, and as for the quality of every one's work-- the fire is the thing which will test it.
      (1 Corinthians 3:13 WNT)
    • If any one's work--the building which he has erected--stands the test, he will be rewarded.
      (1 Corinthians 3:14 WNT)
    • And do not let us test the Lord too far, as some of them tested Him and were destroyed by the serpents.
      (1 Corinthians 10:9 WNT)
    • I am not saying this by way of command, but to test by the standard of other men's earnestness the genuineness of your love also.
      (2 Corinthians 8:8 WNT)
    • Test yourselves to discover whether you are true believers: put your own selves under examination. Or do you not know that Jesus Christ is within you, unless you are insincere?
      (2 Corinthians 13:5 WNT)
    • but test all such, and retain hold of the good.
      (1 Thessalonians 5:21 WNT)
    • Through faith Abraham, as soon as God put him to the test, offered up Isaac. Yes, he who had joyfully welcomed the promises was on the point of sacrificing his only son
      (Hebrews 11:17 WNT)
    • Blessed is he who patiently endures trials; for when he has stood the test, he will gain the victor's crown--even the crown of Life--which the Lord has promised to those who love Him.
      (James 1:12 WNT)
    • Dear friends, do not be surprised at finding that that scorching flame of persecution is raging among you to put you to the test--as though some surprising thing were accidentally happening to you.
      (1 Peter 4:12 WNT)
    • Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but put the spirits to the test to see whether they are from God; for many false teachers have gone out into the world.
      (1 John 4:1 WNT)
    • The test by which you may recognize the Spirit of God is that every spirit which acknowledges that Jesus Christ has come as man is from God,
      (1 John 4:2 WNT)
    • The man who is beginning to know God listens to us, but he who is not a child of God does not listen to us. By this test we can distinguish the Spirit of truth from the spirit of error.
      (1 John 4:6 WNT)
    • I know your doings and your toil and patient suffering. And I know that you cannot tolerate wicked men, but have put to the test those who say that they themselves are Apostles but are not, and you have found them to be liars.
      (Revelation 2:2 WNT)
    • Dismiss your fears concerning all that you are about to suffer. I tell you that the Devil is about to throw some of you into prison that you may be put to the test, and for ten days you will have to endure persecution. Be faithful to the End, even if you have to die, and then I will give you the victor's Wreath of Life.
      (Revelation 2:10 WNT)
    • Because in spite of suffering you have guarded My word, I in turn will guard you from that hour of trial which is soon coming upon the whole world, to put to the test the inhabitants of the earth.
      (Revelation 3:10 WNT)

    As I said, NOT once was any occurance of the word "test" used in the inference you drew...
  12. look

    look A New Species of Man®

    Word of Faith
    USADINGO, try again... ;)
  13. usadingo

    usadingo Member

    I think what I'm getting at is this.
    If God guarentees healing, than resorting to any method less than Him is disobedience, and therefore, sinning.
    Now if the Bible teaches us to take medicine, and go to doctors, than God does not guarentee healing. Instead, he provides methods outside of Him. He does, however, heal at times if it's His will. However, His main promise to us is salvation to eternity with Him.

  14. usadingo

    usadingo Member

    Ok, here's a new challenge for you.

    Answer what I actually said.

    I never said to find the two in conjuction with each other.

    The Bible does say God tests us.

    The Bible does state areas where God afflicts people, including his Children. (Take David for example. He states it was good that he was afflicted because he learned from it.)

    If God afflicts to teach, and tests to teach, it's quite possible that God uses sickness to teach. After all, sickness is an affliction.
  15. look

    look A New Species of Man®

    Word of Faith
    But there is no recorded instance in the scriptures of God using sickness or disease in conjunction with teaching someone His ways and where does the scriptures actually say otherwise?

    Isn't that called adding to the Word?

    Yes, there are records of God's people who died of sickness, but you will not find anything that points the finger to God as the One who put it on the guy...

    King David once had an sexually transmitted disease, but did God keep healing from David? NO.

    If anything, when YOU learn from YOUR own mistakes and repent, you are the one who brings yourself to the place where God can THEN do something for you. But, not until you change the problem and the source of the problem (it's usually a heart problem).

    This is the area where God tries our reins to our hearts. God does, in your words, "test" us but, again He tests our heart. He stands back to see what we will do and if we disregard His Word, then the curse falls on us. God can't protect us if we are not heeding His Word and if you don't know if it's His will to be healed, then how are you going to have the faith to obtain the promise?

    The Holy Ghost will tell us wherever we went wrong in our walk, but most of the time, we don't or won't get quiet enough to listen. It's not God's fault sickness comes on us. If we would listen to the Holy Ghost's voice, we would learn quickly and God would be glorified in His children walking in the Good of the land...

    Bro, you have to do things God's way or forget it...
  16. SpiritPsalmist

    SpiritPsalmist Heavy lean toward Messianic Supporter

    United States
    Let me see if I can rephrase this for clearer understanding of what I am trying to point out.

    I believe what Jesus did at the cross covered every need, for all mankind that man would ever have. Salvation of man's soul being the most important. I perceive it as a has done (past tense), not a will do (future tense). Jesus covered the whole nine yards. At the moment of acceptance of what he did on the cross for us we are WHOLE. When a person get's saved they don't do everything perfectly from that day on but they are progressively changing and taking on the appearance of their Heavenly Father. . .Spiritually, physically, and emotionally.

    Here again are those 2 scriptures that I researched at blueletterbible.org. I believe it shows very clearly that whole includes not only salvation, but physical and emotional healing as well.

    1 Peter 2:24 (Greek) "Who his own self bare our sins in his body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed".

    Portion of verse aiming at: "ye were healed"
    Strongs Number: 2390
    Outline of Biblical Usuage:
    1) to cure, heal
    2) to make whole
    ....(a) To free from errors and sins, to bring about (one's) salvation.

    Clicking on the word heal referred me to: Mt 8:8, 13, Mt 13:15 , Mk 5:29, Luke 4:18, 5:17, 6:17, 19, 7:7, 8:47. Just to name a few. . . there were 2 pages of similar verses using the same Strong's number for the word healing in that verse.

    IS 53:5 (Hebrew)"But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed".

    Portion of verse aiming at: "for our transgressions"
    Strong's Number: 06588
    Outline of Biblical Usage:
    1) transgression, rebellion
    ....a) transgression (against individuals)
    ....b) transgression (nation against nation)
    ....c) transgression (against God)
    ........1) in general
    ........2) as recognised by sinner
    ........3) as God deals with it
    ........4) as God forgives
    ....d) guilt of transgression
    ....e) punishment for transgression
    ....f) offering for transgression

    Portion of verse aiming at: "for our iniquities"
    Strong's Number: 05771
    Outline of Biblical Usage:
    1) perversity, depravity, iniquity, guilt or punishment of iniquity
    ....a) iniquity
    ....b) guilt of iniquity, guilt (as great), guilt (of condition)
    ....c) consequence of or punishment for iniquity

    Portion of verse aiming at: "of our peace"
    Strong's Number: 07965
    Outline of Biblical Usage:
    1) completeness, soundness, welfare, peace
    ....a) completeness (in number)
    ....b) safety, soundness (in body)
    ....c) welfare, health, prosperity
    ....d) peace, quiet, tranquillity, contentment
    ....e) peace, friendship
    .......1) of human relationships
    .......2) with God especially in covenant relationship
    ....f) peace (from war)
    ....g) peace (as adjective)

    Portion of verse aiming at: "we are healed"
    Strong's Number:07495
    Outline of Biblical Usage:
    1) to heal, make healthful
    ....a) (Qal) to heal
    ........1) of God
    ........2) healer, physician (of men)
    ........3) of hurts of nations involving restored favour (fig)
    ........4) of individual distresses (fig)
    ....b) (Niphal) to be healed
    ........1) literal (of persons)
    ........2) of water, pottery
    ........3) of national hurts (fig)
    ........4) of personal distress (fig)
    ....c) (Piel) to heal
    ........1) literal
    ........2) of national defects or hurts (fig)
    ....d) (Hithpael) in order to get healed (infinitive)

    The Bible says that we are to have faith in God. We are not to trust in other things for our salvation or for our provision whether it be physical or emotional, or financial.

    I do not believe the Bible says we are not to trust that God has given some, wisdom and knowledge in area's that are beneficial to us. . .but our salvation, whether it's spiritual or physical does not come from their knowledge and wisdom but from God. I trust God that He is working through my doctor to minister things to me in the physical that I have yet to fully understand in the spiritual.

    I don't know that God provides anything outside of Himself. I believe that God provides and we as humans tend to look at those things as the provider when those things are only there because God is there.

    God's provides via various methods but that in no way gives us permission to lean on that method. . .we are told to depend on Him alone. He is the one who gives the knowledge and the wisdom and the means. My job is not my provider, God is. My human doctor is not my healer, God is. My Pastor is not my redeemer, God is. The only thing required of me is to use the method He provides. . .whatever form it may take.
  17. Andrew

    Andrew Well-Known Member

    You need to go back to the cross. WOF preachers, and any healing evangelist, WOF or not, have only ONE basis/foundation to preach that it is God's will to heal all the time.

    That basis is found in the atoning sacrifice of Christ. In other words, the only reason (or the main foundation) why we can preach healing is that Christ did not just bear our sins on the cross, but our sicknesses and pains as well.

    This has been called the "double cure" -- forgiveness of sins as well as healing. Notice how Jesus forgave sins as well as healed at the same time?

    Did Jesus bear the sins of the whole world at the cross? Yes.
    So is the promise of salvation opened to all men? Yes.
    But do all men believe on and receive the promise and are saved? No, for whatever reasons (man's failure to receive, never God's fault).
    Does that mean God does not want some to be saved? No, He's already done all that needs to be done at the cross.

    Did Jesus bear all our sicknesses and pains on the cross? Yes.
    So is the healing promise open to all? Yes.
    But do all believe this and receive it? No, for whatever reasons (man's failure to receive, never God's fault).
    Does that mean God does not want some to be healed? No, becos he's already done all that needs to be done (regarding healing) at the cross.

    Healing is also part of the redemptive work of Christ. One of the curses of the law in Deu 28 is that God will permit "ALL" types of diseases not listed to come upon his people. This is in v68, which blanket covers ALL diseases. (So how can anyone say that certain diseases are blessings when clearly here they are a curse?)

    Anyway, point is, if Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law, then he redeemed us from the curse of "all sickness" coming on us.

    Now, if redemption from sickness is part of Christ's atoning work, then how can the Father go against the work of his son by bringing sickness on his children?

    So, until one sees healing in the atoning sacrifice of Christ, he is just arguing around the peripheral -- in the area of "for whatever reasons", usu using personal experiences and even "experiences from the Bible to argue their case, rather than the Gospel. Again, the only reason for preaching healing is that it IS part of the cross of Jesus Christ.

    I hope you get the jist of why healing is preached.
  18. israel_knight

    israel_knight New Member

    If thats true how come so few people get healed? There is this one lady who is paralized from the neck down that goes up for healing every time and gets nothing what about her?
  19. Andrew

    Andrew Well-Known Member

    You see, Israel Knight, that is the problem, you are using an experience to determine what is God's truth.

    Christians who hold the Bible as the sole authority go by what is written, not what they see happening around them.

    This attitude must be changed first. IOW, if I see in the Word that healing is promised to all, then even if not a single person is healed, I will still believe healing is open to all, becos and only becos I see it in the Word.

    What people tend to do is this: Take what they see in the world happening to explain or interpret scripture.

    So rather than look at an experience, you must first settle in your heart once and for all -- Is healing indeed in the atoning sacrifice or Christ?

    I could ask the same question, if salvation is open to all, how come some people dont respond when the altar call is given? How come some people still go to hell and are not saved? Do I then conclude and preach that it is not God's will that none should perish? Do I then reinterpret that verse to 'fit' in with what I see happening in the natural?

    The other problem with refering to experiences is this: you'll be on shaky ground. When you need healing for example, the devil will work overtime to point you to all those who did not get healed. Your faith will fail becos it is not based on the written Word but on experience. Likewise, one cannot believe in healing becos he saw someone else getting healed. Again, that is shaky ground.

    Finally, I might ask the same question: "If healing is not for all, how come so and so got healed?" There are many many people who have been miraculously healed. Yet, we dont look to these to determine God's truth.
  20. israel_knight

    israel_knight New Member

    So if it is allways mans fault and healing is available to anyone how come Jesus instructed his disiples in matthew 17:21 that this kind does not go out except by prayer and fasting?
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